MOA Rant

Buckoman

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 3, 2008
184
0
Hatfield, Pa
This totally annoys me. If a rifle shoots 1MOA at 100 yards that rifle should hold 1MOA at 1000 if hte shooter does his part. Right? Bases on angular discetion an MOA is minute of ANGEL. So if you cut a slice of pie that's a 45 degree angel the distance between cut lines with be say an inch at the center and 3 inches at the edge of the plate but the angel is still the SAME.

I had a buddy tell me that only custum guns will shoot 1 MOA out to 500 yards. Heck my factory Remington shot 3/4 MOA all day long. He said that it would only do that at 100 yards and after that the accuracy of the gun would drop off. Clearly the dude didn't take a geometry class in school. Unless I'm missing something here, take the shooter out of the question the gun should still shoot the same.

off rant
 
Re: MOA Rant

No,

it sounds good on paper, but a there is nothing that says 1 MOA at 100 yards equals 1 MOA at a 1000 yards (or any distance) except the math of an MOA, not the mechanics of a rifle, the shooter, or the conditions surrounding the shot.

In most cases the errors effecting the shot compound over and over, whether that is shooter induced, rifle, or environmental conditions. It's not a handgun you don't just point the muzzle at a target and it hit it.
 
Re: MOA Rant

Buy your buddy a slice of that pie, for he knows of what he speaks. 100, 200, even 300 or 400 yards is easy. But then the differences really start to shine. Do you honestly believe a person would spend %2500+ for a custom build rifle if a $499 rifle would perform the same. I don't think so?? Tom.
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If a rifle shoots 1MOA at 100 yards that rifle should hold 1MOA at 1000 if hte shooter does his part. Right?</div></div>

Totally wrong.

At extended distances, things which make no difference at all at 100 yards make a huge difference.

Those things include, but are not limited to:

The wind.

Variations in muzzle speed caused by powder weight differences, primer performance, and neck tension.

Bullet dimensions (especially the point).

Shooter-induced variations, including body position, trigger pull, breathing, etc.

And last, but by far, not the least, variations in the wind. (Yes - I mentioned it twice.) At 1000 yards, a 1 mph crosswind will move a 175SMK a full 10 inches. And there's almost always <span style="font-style: italic">some</span> wind.

I figure that if on a given day, I can achieve a group at 1000 yards which is three times in MOA what the gun and load will do at 100 yards, I'm having a really spendid day. And that's on a day <span style="font-weight: bold">with very little wind.</span>.

You have a lot to learn.

 
Re: MOA Rant

I have a cheap ass Savage that is one of the best shooting rifles in the safe, will hang with anybody's custom stick, ask anybody that's shot with me... Does this mean you can run out and buy a 10FP and expect it to bughole like mine? Maybe it will maybe it wont, it's a gamble...

I have 1 GAP and 1 being built that I KNOW will shoot great. No gamble, I know it...

I'm tickled shitless that my my 10FP shoots so good, but I know it's the exception, not the rule. Custom built sticks give you guaranteed accuracy when you pull it out that box. You just have to work on matching your performance to that of the rifle...
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Evilaviator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a pellet gun that shoots 1MOA at 25meters. Is it good to 1k? </div></div>

Nice!
 
Re: MOA Rant

I'll give you 2500 for your pellet gun. lol.


Ok, but my arguement is that environmental conditions do not reflect the accuracy potential of the gun. Now lets put a hypothetical here. Take wind, shooter, and all the external variable elements out of the equation. Two guns stuck in a vice, both shoot 1/2 MOA. One is factory and one is the million dollar custom. Both fire exactly simultaneously ath the same velocity. They should both have the same MOA travel downrange right?
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If a rifle shoots 1MOA at 100 yards that rifle should hold 1MOA at 1000 if hte shooter does his part. Right?</div></div>

Totally wrong.

At extended distances, things which make no difference at all at 100 yards make a huge difference.

Those things include, but are not limited to:

The wind. #### external variability, this is outside of the all gun's control ####

Variations in muzzle speed caused by powder weight differences, primer performance, and neck tension. #### Lets say two guns are using the same ammo, then what ####

Bullet dimensions (especially the point). #### Again, cheap gun and million dollar gun are using the same ammo with the same MOA potential. Then what ####

Shooter-induced variations, including body position, trigger pull, breathing, etc. #### Again, this is outside of the gun's control. I'm strictly talking about the GUN's capability not the function of all variables that would throw off any shot from any gun.####

And last, but by far, not the least, variations in the wind. (Yes - I mentioned it twice.) At 1000 yards, a 1 mph crosswind will move a 175SMK a full 10 inches. And there's almost always <span style="font-style: italic">some</span> wind. #### I get that, Again wind is an EXTERNAL factor over the guns' potential. I'm talking about a guns potential outside of any external vairiations that can trow a shot. I'm talking about a guns' inherant accuracy potential. ####

I figure that if on a given day, I can achieve a group at 1000 yards which is three times in MOA what the gun and load will do at 100 yards, I'm having a really spendid day. And that's on a day <span style="font-weight: bold">with very little wind.</span>.

You have a lot to learn. #### No, I really don't. You just didn't understand my question. I understand that there are external factors that affect a shot. Distance amplifies deviation. Ok, I get it. The question was derived from a hypothetical situation where you take out all the external variables. I still hold that a gun that shoots 1MOA at 100 yards is still guaranteed to shoot 1 MOA at 500 yards if the external factors are removed (granted I may not have been clear on this point earlier), and as long as the bullets are still supersonic. I still say that a custom gun side by side with a cheap gun that both shoot 1MOA at 100 yards will shoot exactly the same further out if fired simultaneously, but I could be wrong. If I am, please detail elaborately why. ####

</div></div>
 
Re: MOA Rant

Hypothetical scenarios mean nothing. I spend no time arguing hypothetical crap because there is plenty to discuss in REAL WORLD scenarios.

Rather than try to illustrate how "right" your statement was by using a hypothetical argument... simply accept that your statement and argument was wrong.

Then you can learn that all the variables are exactly WHY some guns that are 1/2 minute shooters at 100yds, become 2 minute shooters at 500+ yds.

Even if all outside variables are accounted for and equal, and the same shooter grabs both rifles, and drives them correctly... the tiny variations from one gun to the next will still lead to one gun not shooting as good as the other at extended range.

This can be seen and proven by the fact that when developing a load for some rifles, they will shoot like shit at 100yds, but will be 1/2 minute at 300yds and out. While a different load for that same rifle will yield one-hole results at 100, and poor results past 300.

Stop trying to prove yourself right, and start integrating the information you are reading in this thread into your brain... so you can be right going forward.
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This can be seen and proven by the fact that when developing a load for some rifles, they will shoot like shit at 100yds, but will be 1/2 minute at 300yds and out. While a different load for that same rifle will yield one-hole results at 100, and poor results past 300.

Stop trying to prove yourself right, and start integrating the information you are reading in this thread into your brain... so you can be right going forward. </div></div>

I've never heard of the above scenario. Can you explain what factors what cause such an occurance?
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I still hold that a gun that shoots 1MOA at 100 yards is still guaranteed to shoot 1 MOA at 500 yards if the external factors are remove...</div></div>

You hold wrong - because all of the factors I listed were <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> external.

Even if you remove the wind and variations in shooter input, differences in muzzle velocity and bullet dimensions which will make no significant difference at 100 yards will have larger effects at long distance.

Again, I figure if I can hold three times my hundred yard group size at 1000 yards, I'm having a good day.
 
Re: MOA Rant

I've got plenty of experience breaking clay pigeons at 600 yards with my Factory Remington VS that's been cut to 20 inches.

Funny how guys tend to get so condecending when hiding behind a computer. I never hear guys at a gun range talk to each other the way they do in forums. Kinda makes it kinda easy when its faceless I guess.
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone needs to get off the 100 yard line.</div></div>

+1.....and better yet step away from the keyboard....
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Master_Blaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got plenty of experience breaking clay pigeons at 600 yards with my Factory Remington VS that's been cut to 20 inches.

Funny how guys tend to get so condecending when hiding behind a computer. I never hear guys at a gun range talk to each other the way they do in forums. Kinda makes it kinda easy when its faceless I guess. </div></div>

lighten up Francis... Ever heard of tongue in cheek?

You don't jump into the ring with Ali 'cause you think you can box.

Many things outside the rifle effect the bullet. Just because it rocks close in does not mean it will lick balls at distance... and vice versa.



BOLTRIPPER... a lil salt with a spritz please
 
Re: MOA Rant

If you have plenty of experience at 600 yards breaking clay pigeons, then you out of all people should know better then 1 MOA at 100 does not equal 1 MOA at distance.
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Master_Blaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless I'm missing something here, take the shooter out of the question the gun should still shoot the same.</div></div>

Should,... is your key word, but real world is different.

I can show you 3 different sticks that all shoot different.
Smokepool 1 (old 300wm) is a 1/2moa stick to 400 yds then it opens to 3 moa at 1k,... It don't care whos driving it.

#2 300RUM has never shot better than 1.5moa at 100yds with anyone, but shoots moa past 300 yds.

#3 .308 win shoots .75moa at 100, an just under 3/8 moa at 800yds then moa to 1K.

The only thing you can bank on,.... is a difference in sticks.

Show me a 1/2 moa anytime anywhere stick, and a 1/2moa driver to 1K,... and I'll be seeing that person standing next to David Tubbs.

In fact,.... all those anytime anywhere shooters are always welcome to show us at HardRock,.... show me you can clean that 1 moa course and I'll pay your gas, car or truck wash, range fees, an buy you supper. Plus you'll have the distinction as being the only person to have ever done it.
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have plenty of experience at 600 yards breaking clay pigeons, then you out of all people should know better then 1 MOA at 100 does not equal 1 MOA at distance. </div></div>

With external environmental deviations sure, but again I was going back to a hypothetical scenarior about two guns shooting idential MOA groups at 100. A cheap one such as my VS and an expensive one. Could someone please explain to me again, if all things are the same between gun 1 and gun 2 such as velocity, bullet, twist, 100 yard MOA etc why one gun would shoot better than the other at distance if fired at exactly the same time, taking shooter movements out of the equation. Say two bench guns for that matter. What makes one more accurate over the other if at 100 yards they have the same MOA group?
 
Re: MOA Rant

barrel harmonics, load in that particular barrel...\


just because they drive tacks at 100 don't mean shit... they will each drive differently regardless of the similarities between them.

same load, same velocity, different printing at distance
 
Re: MOA Rant

Ok, thanks for the info guys. Those were the answers I was looking for. Not "that it does" followed my a condecending remark. I'm a scientist by trade, and I'm a "why" kinda person, not just a this is it. Thanks very much
 
Re: MOA Rant

oh for fucks sakes,.,,,,,,,,,,,,

savvy Hatchers notebook.....in it it refers to theory shooting in a vacuum....and what would happen to projos with no gravity...there is a whole Lilongwe that was published nearly 100 years ago....
 
Re: MOA Rant

I didn't know you were that old Ripper.
laugh.gif
 
Re: MOA Rant

Your thinking is flawed. Even in your senerio it doesn't work out. For example the custom rig might have a hand lapped barrel, and the head space might be tighter as well. These 2 things can drastically effect accuracy and the stability of the bullet. There are so many things that need to be taken into account that its just not feasable. Also consider that if you were right and 1 moa at 100 ment 1 moa at a 1000 then it would also mean 1 moa at 2000. Also consider the bc of the bullet and when it goes transonic let alone subsonic. It just doesn't work that way. I don't think anyone is trying to be condescending just giving their knowledge and advice. If you disagree come up with some factual bases for it not a hypothetical question. The people here are more than willing to help each other learn and understand but don't dismiss everything people are telling you and get defensive about it.
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Master_Blaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny how guys tend to get so condecending when hiding behind a computer. I never hear guys at a gun range talk to each other the way they do in forums. Kinda makes it kinda easy when its faceless I guess. </div></div>
You sort of went looking for it though.
You've been given a pretty detailed answer about why your theory does not hold ground.
There are so many factors why your theory is broken.
Consider that your bullet drops its velocity (both linear and rotational) pretty fast.
Dropping linear velocity, means that the bullet takes more time to cover a given distance, that is turn, means that the external effects on the bullet rise consequentially.
If you've to cover 100 yards, along which there's a guy slapping your face once a second, your face would be more swollen at the end, if you travel at 5mph instead of 10mph.
Then there are effects related to the loss of stability due to progressively reduced rotational velocity.
Now, if your rifle would be shooting laser beams, that could be a different story
wink.gif
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Master_Blaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bases on angular discetion an MOA is minute of ANGEL. So if you cut a slice of pie that's a 45 degree angel the distance between cut lines with be say an inch at the center and 3 inches at the edge of the plate but the <span style="font-weight: bold">angel </span>is still the SAME. </div></div>

Well, if the <span style="font-weight: bold">angel</span> you're talking about is the one watching over you, then that just might be true. Likely even an <span style="font-weight: bold">angel </span>couldn't get your rifle to hold the same accuracy as measured by MOA out to just any distance though.

Seriously though, just because a rifle is accurate to within one minute of ANGLE at 100yds, doesn't mean it will retain that same level of accuracy out to any distance. This reality is why, for instance, military specifications call for a level of accuracy <span style="font-weight: bold">at a given distance</span>. For example, in the new SOCOM PSR rifle competition, the requirement is that a rifle be capable of 1MOA extreme vertical spread at 1500 meters for a 10 shot grouping.

Minute of angle is useful as a measurement of accuracy to shooters because it allows us to disregard measurement differences like metric/imperial and because it generally holds true within certain envelopes of performance (100 yds and 1000 yds are not the same envelope).

Now while wind, shooter, and atmospherics are non-rifle specific factors that you wish to take out of the discussion for the sake of argument, the other factors are not.

Obviously the pellet gun example (while funny) is flippant. I'm sure you are aware that a supersonic projectile can only be expected to remain accurate until roughly the point it enters the transonic stage which is generally going to be in the 850-1050yds range for .308. So I assume you are trying to argue that your theoretical 1MOA rifle at 100yds should hold that same accuracy out to the transonic threshold, not to infinity.

You might argue that BC and velocity are bullet/cartridge issues. You are right, but they are also internal ballistics issues.

A bullet is deformed and scored by rifling as it passes through the barrel, the level to which this happens and the consistency with which it happens relate to how the barrel was cut/buttoned/broached/hammered/etc. This is a factor that matters little at 100yds, but given 10 times that distance and time for air resistance and wind deflection to act upon the projectile, the amount of difference in how the bullet was impacted by its passage through the barrel becomes very important.

A bullet also has to make the jump from chamber to engaging the rifling. Certainly a big part of this is in the cartridge (seating depth), but how well a chamber is cut affects the consistency with which this happens even if seating depth and bullet concentricity are held to be perfectly uniform shot to shot.

A bullet is also affected by the crown of the barrel as it leaves. A well cut and maintained crown means that the bullet will leave the barrel consistently every time. A less great crown will impart inconsistent forces upon the bullet as gas leaves the barrel behind the bullet in a way that is not perfectly concentric and uniform. This effect don't mean much to a .308 at 100yds, but once you get out there, it can become quite pronounced.

The consistency with which the action locks up also matters, as does the consistency with which the brass contacts the bolt face.

Any harmonics on the barrel matter. This is why free floated barrels are generally preferred - less stuff touching the bbl, less randomness imparted on the bbl harmonics. It is also why devices exist that put weight on the front of the bbl or apply pressure or something else to cancel out those harmonics. In any case, as with anything consistency is key. A $2500 rifle with a bedded action and free floated barrel will exhibit more constant bbl harmonics than a factory tube dropped into a stock which touches the bbl in a slightly different way everytime you touch it or recoil shifts shit around.

Of course, optics mounting matters as well. How an optic mount is attached can exert non-uniform stresses upon the action or bbl which affect harmonics. This is why some people bed their bases and why some prefer two piece bases or, better yet, integral bases (although this, to a lesser extent, extends the issue out to the rings). A quality optic that is properly mounted will also not move as much. movement of the reticle within the scope or very slight shifting of parts that, after all, are attached not cast, forged, or milled as one, can mean a difference in POI at 100 yds that doesn't matter, but which can throw your adjustments out of spec at 1000 yds. Think of a very small cant for example, at zero, it doesn't really matter, but at 1000 yds and thirty some odd MOA of vertical travel later, you're off. Back down to 100yds, recoil of the next shot shifts it ever so slightly back to center, next one back up to 1K yds and slightly to the other side, you get the point, what matters little at 100yds, means ALOT at 1000.

Bottom line: quality of barrel, quality of action, quality of stock, quality of optics/mounting, and quality with which they were all put together, makes a huge difference at extended ranges.

That SOCOM PSR rifle may barely hold 1 MOA of vertical spread over 10 shots at 1500m, but I'm sure most of them fart 1/4 MOA 3 shot groups at 100 yds.

-Pete
 
Re: MOA Rant

No 2 snowflakes are identical, alike perhaps, but not identical.

Now when applying this observation to rifles and projectiles...

No 2 barrels are identical. No 2 bullets are identical. No 2 powder charges are identical. No 2 primers are identical. No 2 actions, bolts, chambers, bedding, barrel harmonics, crowns, throats, triggers, scopes, etc. are identical.

You can get 2 rifles that are 'alike', but they will always be apples to oranges when you stack all the variables against eachother.

A load can be all over the place at 100 yards and be very accurate when you get further out. This has to do with bullet stability in flight, factored by velocities, pressures, temperatures, barrel twist rates and everything else.

There is no reason why a rifle that groups 1 MOA at 100yd should be expected to have that kind of consistancy all the way out to 1k.

As a scientist you should know that any experiment or control for an experiment has to eliminate or factor in as many variables as possible to be considered accurate...
 
Re: MOA Rant

No, manufacturers guarantee is not just marketing. It is based on a set of standards. The distance is set, and it is supposed to be with appropriate ammo(ie match usually). Usually when a company gives a 1moa or 1/2 moa gaurantee it is at 100yards however sometimes less. Alot of companies shy away from this because too many people don't know how to shoot properly and can't hold the group guaranteed and bitch to the company about false advertising or poor gunsmithing. Most that do guarantee a certiain size group come with a target from the factory in which they have tested the rifle themselves to prove it will hold there standard.
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Master_Blaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If a rifle shoots 1MOA at 100 yards that rifle should hold 1MOA at 1000 if hte shooter does his part. Right? </div></div>

There's a guy in my town that I've bought bullets from who has held the 1000 yard benchrest world record at least once, perhaps more, I don't know him well. He told me the only way he know's what will happen at 1000 yards is to shoot at a 1000 yards. He's not even happy with data from 600. His best 1000 yard load is not optimal for 100 yards and vice-versa. If you want to listen to a guy who shoots from a bench.
grin.gif


John
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Master_Blaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, thanks for the info guys. Those were the answers I was looking for. Not "that it does" followed my a condecending remark. I'm a scientist by trade, and I'm a "why" kinda person, not just a this is it. Thanks very much </div></div>

I gave you a 2 page long thread with like 50 posts that I found after using the search for 30 seconds, in which, roughly the same stuff you were saying was said... and they go into detail as to why this happens... and you call that a "that it does" answer?

Master Blaster... aka. Mr Scientist, I'm going to remember your handle... and I'll be dragged face-down through a pit of broken glass mixed with hot coals before I attempt to help you with a question again.

The fuckn nerve of some people... I swear. *sigh*

edit: yeah, maybe I was a little harsh. ... but I get tired of people looking to prove what they "think" is right, as oppose to looking to find what "IS" right.
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Master_Blaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If a rifle shoots 1MOA at 100 yards that rifle should hold 1MOA at 1000 if hte shooter does his part. Right? </div></div>

There's a guy in my town that I've bought bullets from who has held the 1000 yard benchrest world record at least once, perhaps more, I don't know him well. He told me the only way he know's what will happen at 1000 yards is to shoot at a 1000 yards. He's not even happy with data from 600. His best 1000 yard load is not optimal for 100 yards and vice-versa. If you want to listen to a guy who shoots from a bench.
grin.gif


John </div></div>

Yes your info is correct but only to a point. You cant reliably do load work up for 1k shooting unless you have a 1000 yard houston wearhouse. So with that said my load work up is done a 400-500 cause i can still see my bullet impacts and there is way less other factors to worry about. Has done well for me in the past and im gonna keep doing it until i can build a really big garage.
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NotAGuru</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Master_Blaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If a rifle shoots 1MOA at 100 yards that rifle should hold 1MOA at 1000 if hte shooter does his part. Right? </div></div>

There's a guy in my town that I've bought bullets from who has held the 1000 yard benchrest world record at least once, perhaps more, I don't know him well. He told me the only way he know's what will happen at 1000 yards is to shoot at a 1000 yards. He's not even happy with data from 600. His best 1000 yard load is not optimal for 100 yards and vice-versa. If you want to listen to a guy who shoots from a bench.
grin.gif


John </div></div>

Yes your info is correct but only to a point. You cant reliably do load work up for 1k shooting unless you have a 1000 yard houston wearhouse. So with that said my load work up is done a 400-500 cause i can still see my bullet impacts and there is way less other factors to worry about. Has done well for me in the past and im gonna keep doing it until i can build a really big garage. </div></div>

I wondered about this myself when he said that to me. But he shoots at a level that's so far over my head it's not funny. Personally, I'm with you... stuff starts to happen after 4-500 that I can't explain (sometimes it happens at 100
grin.gif
)

John
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: orkan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Master_Blaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, thanks for the info guys. Those were the answers I was looking for. Not "that it does" followed my a condecending remark. I'm a scientist by trade, and I'm a "why" kinda person, not just a this is it. Thanks very much </div></div>

I gave you a 2 page long thread with like 50 posts that I found after using the search for 30 seconds, in which, roughly the same stuff you were saying was said... and they go into detail as to why this happens... and you call that a "that it does" answer?

Master Blaster... aka. Mr Scientist, I'm going to remember your handle... and I'll be dragged face-down through a pit of broken glass mixed with hot coals before I attempt to help you with a question again.

The fuckn nerve of some people... I swear. *sigh*

edit: yeah, maybe I was a little harsh. ... but I get tired of people looking to prove what they "think" is right, as oppose to looking to find what "IS" right. </div></div>

No glass and coal necessary. If you notice my post didn't start out as a question at all. It was a statement with an uncertainty "Right?" following. The subsequent questions came mearly in response to correction which I humbly accept. Searches, including your helpful link, typically give you the "This is what it is" scenario which is what a lot of posts here were. I wanted a much deaper understanding as WHY this is what it is.
Anyway, thanks to all who did post some helpful information.
 
Re: MOA Rant

The generally accepted reason for the above is referred to as "yaw." This was mentioned several times in the thread I linked. Yaw caused by the escaping gasses and/or the jacket expanding upon being spit out the barrel which may impart un-even force on the bullet, causing its tail to kick out to one side or the other.

This ever-so-tiny yaw can cause a load that is one hole at 100, shoot wildly at long range.

It was explained IN DETAIL in the thread I linked. Which is why I am led to believe you had not even read the damn thread in its entirety, and were just looking for a quick answer, without fully understanding the principle in the first place.

Or maybe I have it all wrong.
smile.gif
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bryan Litz' book has two chapters, Chapter 10 on Bullet Stability and Chapter 11, which covers advanced topics like bullet dispersion and epicyclic yaw, which might be interesting reading to persons shooting long distances.

I highly recommend this book to precision rifle shooters.

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/Book.htm
</div></div>

ooohh, excellent. Thanks
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Master_Blaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got plenty of experience breaking clay pigeons at 600 yards with my Factory Remington VS that's been cut to 20 inches.

</div></div>

Try it with mama's 10.5" dinner plate at 1K........
Not saying it can't be done, its just a whole different ballgame. Lots of guys out there can hit the 1/2 minute X ring at 1000 yards alot of the time, and more of the time get it in the 1moa 10 ring, but I guarantee none of them show up on match day with a factory stick, esp not in 308.

And if you can break 9 clay pigeons at 600 out of 10 rounds your buddy wouldn't be arguing with you.
 
Re: MOA Rant

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Master_Blaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This totally annoys me. If a rifle shoots 1MOA at 100 yards that rifle should hold 1MOA at 1000 if hte shooter does his part. Right? Bases on angular discetion an MOA is minute of ANGEL. So if you cut a slice of pie that's a 45 degree angel the distance between cut lines with be say an inch at the center and 3 inches at the edge of the plate but the angel is still the SAME.

I had a buddy tell me that only custum guns will shoot 1 MOA out to 500 yards. Heck my factory Remington shot 3/4 MOA all day long. He said that it would only do that at 100 yards and after that the accuracy of the gun would drop off. Clearly the dude didn't take a geometry class in school. Unless I'm missing something here, take the shooter out of the question the gun should still shoot the same.

off rant </div></div>

What youre missing is ballistics. The MOA stays the same, but the ballistics do not. Often firearms lose accuracy with range. That could be a lot of factors causing it- weapon, ammo, wind, etc, but to say a rifle holds 1MOA at 1000yards is a lot more valuable than 1MOA at 100 to me.

It's simple reality that accuracy loss is going to occur over range. only more variables get added (wind, bullet stability, extreme spread of velocity, runout of bullet weight, and probably other factors I'm missing here.)
 
Re: MOA Rant

I was going through the Sierra Website and came across some interesting information,they were testing the 190 SMK,and found that at a certain distance, the air friction on the bullet caused it to stabilize and fly true,it was somewhere between 250-270yds,the engineers determined the accuracy at that point would be the same out to 600+,I don't remember the name of the phenomena,but in a nutshell,if you are shooting a 2" group at 300yds,it should be the same at 600yds.I'm going to check their site tomorrow and see if I can find it again.Lot of good info there even if you don't shoot Sierra Bullets.