Rifle Scopes MOA vs MIL: confused

[Big Al]

I thought I had this stuff figured out. I'm sorry to be asking this but I just got off the phone with a manufacture and now I'm confused. I'm saying which manufacturer.

As I understand it, when using a mil-mil set up. You take the shot, and suppose you see the miss/impact 1.8 mils to the right. All you need to do is click 18 clicks left and shoot again. Simple!

The manufacture told me it can be done very just about the same with a moa-moa set up. Say the impact is 1.75 moa right.

With a .25 moa turret you simply click 7 clicks to come 1.75 moa left.

With a .5 moa turret you simply click either 3 or 4 clicks left to come either 1.5 or 2 moa left.

With a 1 moa turret you simply click 2 clicks left to come 2 moa left.

Does this seem logical and precise? Also, it seems the mil-mil set up would be more precise "at long range".

Alan

 

[Ratbert]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

Basically you have it correct, but stop converting everything to "clicks" and you will get less confused. Instead of "10 clicks" that is "1.0 Mil" or instead of "7 clicks" that is "1.75 MOA" (in the case of an MOA turret.)

0.1 Mil is approximately 0.34 MOA, so it's less precise that 1/4 MOA but more precise than 0.5 MOA.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

Big Al...welcome to the Hide....

most around here don't use the terminology with reticule movement as "clicks"

if i'm doing a follow-up round...i hold, most here do also....its a function of time and wind and getting the hit.

 

[gugubica]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

That is correct.

As long as the system matches (mil/mil or MOA/MOA) you dail what you see. Works the same for both.

Actually, 1/4 MOA turrets are technically more "precise" than mil turrets. But 1/2 MOA turrets are less so. A mil is close to 1/3 MOA, so it falls right in the middle.

This is the exact reason I am converting everything over to mils. I think 1/4 is to precise for tactical accuracy (to much turning for acceptable results) but I think that 1/2 is to coarse. That gets me to the mil, right in between the two.

When choosing a system (other that the reason above) it really boils down to ranging and spotters. If you range with your reticle, MOA can be easier for us sole non-metric users. If you work with a spotter regularly, it make sence to run the same system, so when he tells you you are 4 mils low, you don't have to figure out how many MOA to hold, or vice versa.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

It's not that is "more precise" it's that it matches the reticle across more platforms.

See the problem is, MOA turrets and reticles are not standardized like Mil scopes are.

Mil scopes adjust in 10ths, and the reticle can be broken down into 10ths, so you have a perfect match.

With MOA reticles, they are not all 1 MOA = 1 MOA so breaking them up is not as intuitive. Because you have a bunch of different reticles, and different values for adjustments you have to translate that to the particular scope you are using.

Technically an MOA should be more precise, but in reality it requires more effort in practice. The problem is most people figure this out on paper more so than shooting so, on paper they feel they are on to something. It usually only work well for a few who put the extra effort into work with MOA/MOA because in reality, it is more work.

The biggest proponents will say they can "range" easier with MOA, but honestly, ranging is such a small part of what you use the reticle for, its sort of a wash. Ranging easier versus adjusting for each and every shot easier... its a no-brainer in my book. I want to adjust easier, because even if I make a mistake ranging, if my I can spot my shots and adjust easier, I'm gonna hit easier which is the point.

 

[gugubica]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

Damn, I type slow. The posts above mine are entirely correct.

Stay away from "clicks" they will fuck you eventually.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

As a PS,

If you have a Mil Reticle and MOA scope use this:

.25 MIL in the Reticle = 1 MOA

So,

.25 = 1 MOA
.5 Mil = 2 MOA
.75 Mil = 3 MOA
1 Mil = 4 MOA

This way you can spot your shot and dial that number and it will work. Its fast, its easy and will get things done downrange. Its a practical way of doing things.

If you want to dial, see it in the reticle and dial that on the scope regardless of the range. That is the answer to the question.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not that is "more precise" it's that it matches the reticle across more platforms.

See the problem is, MOA turrets and reticles are not standardized like Mil scopes are.

Mil scopes adjust in 10ths, and the reticle can be broken down into 10ths, so you have a perfect match.

With MOA reticles, they are not all 1 MOA = 1 MOA so breaking them up is not as intuitive. Because you have a bunch of different reticles, and different values for adjustments you have to translate that to the particular scope you are using.

Technically an MOA should be more precise, but in reality it requires more effort in practice. The problem is most people figure this out on paper more so than shooting so, on paper they feel they are on to something. It usually only work well for a few who put the extra effort into work with MOA/MOA because in reality, it is more work.

The biggest proponents will say they can "range" easier with MOA, but honestly, ranging is such a small part of what you use the reticle for, its sort of a wash. Ranging easier versus adjusting for each and every shot easier... its a no-brainer in my book. I want to adjust easier, because even if I make a mistake ranging, if my I can spot my shots and adjust easier, I'm gonna hit easier which is the point. </div></div>

I tried the MOA setup and went back to Mil/Mil for exactly the reasons LL stated. Trying to get something broken down to 1/4 MOA accuracy isn't very easy under 17x magnification, where as a Gen II Mildot gets you to 0.1 precision @ 10x without too much effort. But the bigger reason is that different "MOA" scopes used different values for "MOA" for the reticle and/or turrets depending on the manufacturer. I hated having to keep track of which was MOA and which was "shooter-MOA" depending on which scope i was using. All my Mil/Mil scopes are the same.

 

[Big Al]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

So I need not sell my Mk 4 4.5-14x50 LRT M1 TMR reticle. Just learn Lowlight's formula?

Alan

 

[Lowlight]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

No don't sell your scope, just understand the units you are working with and how they relate to each other.

it's more work, but not hard if you think in simple terms, don't try doing more math than is necessary.

 

[bweidmer]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

Big Al, the mouth of Hobble Creek Canyon is beautiful! Especially with the leaves all turning.

I just switched to Mil/Mil after years of using MOA/Mil dot. Mil/Mil is easy to figure out and use. Simple and intuitive.

 

[Big Al]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

I assume with a 2nd focal plane scope all this is at the scopes preset power to range with; 14x for my Mk4!???

Any powder with a FFP scope?

Alan

 

[pc3]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

Main thing is that turrets match reticle either MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL I think......if you do have matching turrets and reticle be it MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL you can "measure and dial" with either system.

Prior to Yesterday I needed confirmation that this was the case with MOA/MOA and I was told it was....I kind of new it was just wanted it confirmed.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

Think of it this way, if you need to drill a hole and your tape measure says it's 3/8" in diameter, what drill bit do you grab? The 3/8" one.

If you need to drill the same hole and your tape measure says it's 9.52mm, what drill bit do you grab? The 3/8" one. But it's a heck of a lot easier to remember which one to grab when the tape measure matched the drill bits, wasn't it?

Unless of course you have drill bits marked in mm, in which case the mm tape measure would be easier. Same thing with your rifle. The reticle is your tape measure, the turrets are your bits.

And on a SFP scope, trying to measure with anything other than the "correct" power (usually max) is like holding the tape measure up 6" above the hole and figure out how large it should be.

 

[howdydoit]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Think of it this way, if you need to drill a hole and your tape measure says it's 3/8" in diameter, what drill bit do you grab? The 3/8" one.

If you need to drill the same hole and your tape measure says it's 9.52mm, what drill bit do you grab? The 3/8" one. But it's a heck of a lot easier to remember which one to grab when the tape measure matched the drill bits, wasn't it?
</div></div>

I like this analogy. makes more sence.

 

[Supersubes]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BrianW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Big Al, the mouth of Hobble Creek Canyon is beautiful! Especially with the leaves all turning.

I just switched to Mil/Mil after years of using MOA/Mil dot. Mil/Mil is easy to figure out and use. Simple and intuitive. </div></div>

+1

Most of us have been looking at Mil reticles since we started the tactical thing. Matching the knobs to that seems like the natural progression. You don't need to think in terms of subtension, or convert to inches, it's all there in front of your face. Moving from Mil/MOA to Mil/Mil is a no brainer and requires no adjustment period. From the first range session you will wonder why all scopes are not like this.

 

[AlabamaShooter]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

I agree with Super. I started off with a Mil-Dot and 1/4 cm adjustments. It was fine for what I was doing with it at the time. When I switched to a Mil/Mil setup, its like things just "clicked" no pun intended.
So IMHO there is no real advantage to Mil's or MOA, as long as the knobs match the reticle, and provided you learn how to use what you have.

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

Depends on what you want to do, i.e.; role, etc.
MIL/MIL makes more sense to me.
However, if spotter and shooter understand and work with MOA and spotter tells him he has 2 minutes of wind, shooter knows what to do. Depends on which units the two are used to communicating in and doing it well.
I understand MIL/MIL better.
.1 mil adjustments mean 1 centimeter movement POI.
1 centimeter is @ 1/3".
1 mil = 1 meter at 1000 meters
Shoot what you have and if you're buying get mil/mil and go shoot it allot and in the wind.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey Simpson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Depends on what you want to do, i.e.; role, etc.
MIL/MIL makes more sense to me.
However, if spotter and shooter understand and work with MOA and spotter tells him he has 2 minutes of wind, shooter knows what to do. Depends on which units the two are used to communicating in and doing it well.
I understand MIL/MIL better.
.1 mil adjustments mean 1 centimeter movement POI.
1 centimeter is @ 1/3".
1 mil = 1 meter at 1000 meters
Shoot what you have and if you're buying get mil/mil and go shoot it allot and in the wind. </div></div>

Casey,

That's a NO.
0.1 mil is 0.36" change of POI @ 100yds or 1 cm change in POI @ 100 meters

Yes,
1 mil = 1 meter @ 1000 meters. But it is also 1 yd @ 1000 yds.

That's because a mil is not a linear measurement. It is a measurement of angle. So one mil is 1/1000, of any linear measurement, so a mil is 1/1000 of a 1000 mm, cm, inches, feet, yards, meters, kilometers, miles, cubits, et al.

Bob

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

I was just being practically precise; in shooting, environmental fluctuations will change things much more than whether the POI change is .36 at 100 yds or meters.
In geometry class; I hear ya.

 

[338WinMag]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

Sorry to dig up something that seems to be resolved, but rather than starting a new thread I'll just ask a related question.

If I have a 1/8 MOA adjustment that would be 0.18" @ 100 yards, correct? Just extrapolating with basic math. I am trying to draw up an conversion dope chart and would like to make sure my math is straight.

 

[Alan Griffith]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

No, it would be .125". 1/8 = .125" And to be totally accurate it would be .130875" if it is a true MOA conversion as 1 MOA is 1.047".

Alan

 

[supra]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

ok.....so if your not using a spotter and are hunting more than tactical use, which would be easier??

 

[Lindy]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

Actually, for most people, probably the best strategy is to use a zero at 200 or 300 yards, and know how much to hold high or low on the animal being hunted at other distances.

Most people don't hunt at ranges where the reticle type or scope adjustments make much difference. More game has been killed with iron sights than with any scope. And more game has been killed with 4 power Weavers with duplex reticles than any other type scope.

 

[jwp475]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: supra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok.....so if your not using a spotter and are hunting more than tactical use, which would be easier?? </div></div>


Go Mil/Mil

 

[supra]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

true. my longest shot on game has been 375yd and it just so happen to be calm that day and i knew the right amount of dope to dial in. i sight in at 100 simply bc most long shots on our ranch are about 200 yds. very thick in central texas.

 

[supra]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

think thats what im gonna do

 

[shooter65]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=154758

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=199178

 

[KUSA]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 338WinMag</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry to dig up something that seems to be resolved, but rather than starting a new thread I'll just ask a related question.

If I have a 1/8 MOA adjustment that would be 0.18" @ 100 yards, correct? Just extrapolating with basic math. I am trying to draw up an conversion dope chart and would like to make sure my math is straight. </div></div>

1.047 divided by 8 = 0.130875

 

[sgtlmj]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
See the problem is, MOA turrets and reticles are not standardized like Mil scopes are.
</div></div>

Except for Leupold and it's idea of a mRad turret.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

That is because Leupold has their head up their ass, and I wouldn't consider a Leupold in the first place, especially in a Mil / Mil situation.

Get the Super Sniper scope, it's better.

 

[Guest]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

I think a persons age has something to do with a persons choice. As long as you get glass in one system only, then learn same, you'll be GTG. What ever you get,... You and your side kick, need/better be, to be on the same page.

 

[Crazy Dog ll]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

.

 

[81mike]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

+1 on the analogy...great way to think about it...thanks for that

 

[bkiller]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

Man you guys lost this newbe

 

[bkiller]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

I am. Getting my first scope this week I was thinking
a falcon 4x14x44 ffp. So it seems like a good plase to start witch rect

 

[BoomStix]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

I saw a thread where the enhanced mil dot reticle was slightly thinner than the ML16 which would come in handy at full mag (not covering up so much of the target) being a ffp scope and all. Then again at 4x it's pretty fine and hard to see with bad vision. So I'm told. Haven't recieved mine yet to verify this.

 

[jackh]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Big Al</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I understand it, when using a mil-mil set up. You take the shot, and suppose you see the miss/impact 1.8 mils to the right. All you need to do is click 18 clicks left and shoot again. Simple!
Alan </div></div>

wait wouldn't you turn 18 clicks right if poi is off to the right...?

 

[Lindy]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

The turrets are marked to move the point of impact. If the point of impact is off to the right, it needs to be moved to the left to hit the target.

 

[Clark]

Re: MOA vs MIL: confused

1 moa = ~ 1 inch at 100 yards
1 moa = ~ 2 inch at 200 yards
1 milliradian = ~3.6 inch at 100 yards
1 milliradian = ~7.2 inch at 200 yards

So at the 100 yard range with a 1/2 millirad marked reticule, if I see the hole is off the bullseye by 4 marks = 2 millrads, that must be 7.2". So if my scope is 1/4 moa/ click, then I need to turn the turret [7.2"]/ [1/4 moa/ click] = 29 clicks.

not convenient

But if I zero the scope at 200 yards, the range finder says the target animal is at 500 yards, I look at my chart strapped to the rangefinder, I read "500y= 8.1moa", and screw the elevation 8 moa, and shoot.

That is easy enough for me, but I hunt with a guy who owns a range finder, but will not use it until he has a scope with a turret marked in yards.

With that rangefinder and an moa turret, this year I hit 6 deer with 7 shots and killed 5.

350y liver shot
400y missed due to wind, fired again and got heart shot
350y lung shot
350y lung shot
510y knocked upside down, found blood and hair, could not find animal
350y head shot

That is why I have been reading Snipers Hide this last year, was to learn how to adjust the turret before taking a long range shot. It seems to have worked.