Model 70 bedding question

[Maurice]

Newbie here, with a new Model 70, in 30-06. Its an Alaskan - walnut stock.

In a nutshell.... I took the barreled action out of the stock to clean the factory crud, and noticed the action screws are engaging by very few threads. The front one from 35in/lbs to "no engagement" is 3-3/4 turns. Not much. Rear screw is about one turn more. That front screw has about .178" engagement, calculated by the thread pitch (1/4-32).

To me, it looks like the factory bedding is pretty tall, and they didn't quite get the action fully into the stock. I'd like to grind out the factory bedding (or most of it at least) and re-bed things lower. Its only bed at the recoil lug and front receiver ring, and at the receiver tang in the back. In other words, not a fully bedded action, which is fine with me for my use.

The issue I have is, how much clearance to give the magazine box? Right now, with the floorplate open, and the bolt open, I can reach in and push the metal box up and down about 1/8 inch or so, and the box is bottoming out on the stock wood, rather than the bottom metal, so in reality, there's a bit more like 3/16 inch of potential that the action can be sunk into the wood. When I get things ground out and re-bed, how much wiggle room should that magazine box have?

 

[mick243]

Mag box should be reasonably firm, not loose inside the stock but not a crush fit - think a few thou clear before torquing the action screws, too tight you risk stressing the action and opening up its groups

 

[kl3309]

Did you bother to see how much further the action screws will go into the action when you had it out of the stock (with the bolt installed and closed)? Bet you only have another half turn on each of the screws at most. If you drop the action further down into the stock, you're going to have to shorten the action screws and end up with exactly the same amount of engagement that you have now.
And then, what about the length of the trigger? That's going to be making contact with the trigger guard.
And the depth of the barrel channel? You're going to have to adjust the depth there to match what you removed from under the action.
The factory actually had this figured out, and you are about to make an expensive mistake. But hey, it's your rifle, fuck it up as you will.
Oh, and post a pic when you're done.

 

[Carole Baskins]

Did you bother to see how much further the action screws will go into the action when you had it out of the stock (with the bolt installed and closed)? Bet you only have another half turn on each of the screws at most. If you drop the action further down into the stock, you're going to have to shorten the action screws and end up with exactly the same amount of engagement that you have now.
And then, what about the length of the trigger? That's going to be making contact with the trigger guard.
And the depth of the barrel channel? You're going to have to adjust the depth there to match what you removed from under the action.
The factory actually had this figured out, and you are about to make an expensive mistake. But hey, it's your rifle, fuck it up as you will.
Oh, and post a pic when you're done.

Dang man. Got yourself a little sand in the ‘ol vaj today?

 

[flatland1]

Maybe a little gritty at the last, but 3309 makes some good points. OTOH, I wouldn't want the magazine box to be that loose & rattling around between the bottom of the action & the floorplate. It's been several years since I've looked at a new M70, but I've owned several since buying my first one in 1968, and I've never had one that really needed much - if any - work to correct the factory bedding.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Don't drop the internal bedding. Doing so will change the geometry of the rear tang, the barrel clearance and even possibly trigger clearance.
It will also affect the ejection port cutout.

What others have said above about thread engagement makes total sense.

If you insist on removing material without verifying clearances/fitting, then take it from the bottom metal/floorplate area.


^^^^^
With that said, 3+ threads engagement is fine for a 1/4×28 fastener being torqued through plastic or wood.

If it was for pillars or a chassis I might want more, but honestly wouldn't concern myself with it.

Think about how thick a Remington footprint action is at the screw location. 4 threads of engagement would probably not happen.
I don't think your model 70 will suffer any issues...

 

[Maurice]

Did you bother to see how much further the action screws will go into the action when you had it out of the stock (with the bolt installed and closed)? Bet you only have another half turn on each of the screws at most.

I'll accept the insolent remarks, since none of you know me, or my capability. I just don't have much experience with just how a model 70 ought to be fit.

Here's what I did, and found out:
Action out of the stock. Magazine box inserted into the action, bottom metal seated on the magazine box. Front screw goes in 8-1/2 turns, whilst the rear screw goes in about the same... just shy of 8-1/2 turns. Neither screw bottoms, and when set with the box in place, the box did not tilt or rock or really move at all.

Close examination shows that there are more than one issue. First is, the action is bed fairly high. Second is, even with the action lower, the bottom metal would need to be raised to achieve best engagement. I'm reluctant to set the bottom metal deeper, as its very well fit with the bottom surface of the stock. I can refit the bottom metal, perform a stock refinish in BLO+Japan Dryer. I don't mind doing it, but.... just a lot of time to do the job right. A partial refinish would be out of the question, as the Winchester dye and the "finish" they apply are not commonly available.

I was able to purchase a set of 1/4-32 NOS dies for a reasonable price. I tested the screws, and they're an easy file, not terribly hard. Presently, the plan is to lower the action into the stock a bit and see how that magazine box fits. If its good to go, not much wiggle up & down, then I'll get a replacement rear screw, shorten it, and extend the threads up the blank shank if need be. Shank OD is .2515, the major diameter of the threads, is .2495, so no issues with that. Sinking the front and rear of the action won't mess with the barrel, except "maybe" at the first 1-1/2 of the stock where the barrel exits. Since that area is unfinished internally, and I was planning on sealing it, it will be no great loss to lower that a wee bit, should the need arise, as the barrel is fully free floated. There is no bedding forward of the front receiver ring, no behind the recoil lug, save for the tang. The inlet for the barrel band that comprises the rear sight base does present some challenge, but I'm gonna call it "doable" should the need arise. It looks like there's room enough to go a lot deeper. As I prefaced, it looks like they just didn't tighten things up well when the action was first bedded, so the room (probably) exists to lower things a bit.

Thanks Mick243.... the info was perfect, just what I suspected, but wanted to confirm.

On the other hand..... those so-and-so's at FN/BACO are nuts. My rifle is clearly an "Alaskan", due to its integral barrel band that serves as the rear sight mount, and is marked on the barrel as such. The finish, instead of being non-reflective "brushed", is full mirror gloss, and the floorplate is marked "Super Grade". Its not a Super Grade in any other respect whatsoever. Its like they took a polished action and decided to fit an Alaskan barrel to it, then opted to fit polished bottom metal - which is steel in my case, not aluminum. I don't know if that's an upgrade or side step, or even undesirable. I suppose it depends on the rifle's owner. The stock is run of the mill, and instead of having an exposed cross screw the Alaskan ought to have, has the epoxy covered screw, on the right side only. For all I know, there's a drywall screw set in there under the epoxy. I bought the rifle from MIDWAY (ouch, full tilt price) so I really don't think its been messed with, just an oddball. I couldn't find another new one available anyplace else, so "ya gets what ya gets".

I suspect I'll be blasting and Parkerizing the barreled action, bottom metal and small parts eventually.

 

[kl3309]

I'll accept the insolent remarks, since none of you know me, or my capability. I just don't have much experience with just how a model 70 ought to be fit.

Here's what I did, and found out:
Action out of the stock. Magazine box inserted into the action, bottom metal seated on the magazine box. Front screw goes in 8-1/2 turns, whilst the rear screw goes in about the same... just shy of 8-1/2 turns. Neither screw bottoms, and when set with the box in place, the box did not tilt or rock or really move at all.

Close examination shows that there are more than one issue. First is, the action is bed fairly high. Second is, even with the action lower, the bottom metal would need to be raised to achieve best engagement. I'm reluctant to set the bottom metal deeper, as its very well fit with the bottom surface of the stock. I can refit the bottom metal, perform a stock refinish in BLO+Japan Dryer. I don't mind doing it, but.... just a lot of time to do the job right. A partial refinish would be out of the question, as the Winchester dye and the "finish" they apply are not commonly available.

I was able to purchase a set of 1/4-32 NOS dies for a reasonable price. I tested the screws, and they're an easy file, not terribly hard. Presently, the plan is to lower the action into the stock a bit and see how that magazine box fits. If its good to go, not much wiggle up & down, then I'll get a replacement rear screw, shorten it, and extend the threads up the blank shank if need be. Shank OD is .2515, the major diameter of the threads, is .2495, so no issues with that. Sinking the front and rear of the action won't mess with the barrel, except "maybe" at the first 1-1/2 of the stock where the barrel exits. Since that area is unfinished internally, and I was planning on sealing it, it will be no great loss to lower that a wee bit, should the need arise, as the barrel is fully free floated. There is no bedding forward of the front receiver ring, no behind the recoil lug, save for the tang. The inlet for the barrel band that comprises the rear sight base does present some challenge, but I'm gonna call it "doable" should the need arise. It looks like there's room enough to go a lot deeper. As I prefaced, it looks like they just didn't tighten things up well when the action was first bedded, so the room (probably) exists to lower things a bit.

Thanks Mick243.... the info was perfect, just what I suspected, but wanted to confirm.

On the other hand..... those so-and-so's at FN/BACO are nuts. My rifle is clearly an "Alaskan", due to its integral barrel band that serves as the rear sight mount, and is marked on the barrel as such. The finish, instead of being non-reflective "brushed", is full mirror gloss, and the floorplate is marked "Super Grade". Its not a Super Grade in any other respect whatsoever. Its like they took a polished action and decided to fit an Alaskan barrel to it, then opted to fit polished bottom metal - which is steel in my case, not aluminum. I don't know if that's an upgrade or side step, or even undesirable. I suppose it depends on the rifle's owner. The stock is run of the mill, and instead of having an exposed cross screw the Alaskan ought to have, has the epoxy covered screw, on the right side only. For all I know, there's a drywall screw set in there under the epoxy. I bought the rifle from MIDWAY (ouch, full tilt price) so I really don't think its been messed with, just an oddball. I couldn't find another new one available anyplace else, so "ya gets what ya gets".

I suspect I'll be blasting and Parkerizing the barreled action, bottom metal and small parts eventually.

Yeah cool, you do you.

 

[thejeep]

Longer screws?

 

[Maurice]

Yup, I've found a front screw for the long trigger guard that's about .030 longer, which is darn near one turn. We'll see how that works out. And the die should be in, so I can always get another rear screw, or middle screw, and alter it.

Right now, I've got the old bedding ground out somewhat, and its looking like I picked up about two and a half turns. As it sits, the ejection port is flush with the relief on the stock (or very nearly so, I won't quibble), and both the barrel band, and the barrel proper clear the stock. I'll fix up the tang area, as the factory did a horrible job there. If I get from 3-3/4 to just over six turns I'll feel good on it. That should leave about two-ish turns or about .065 of "magazine box wiggle room". Maybe not ideal, but I can live with that.

I've been asked, why not send it back to Browning/Winchester? Because they are clueless, that's why. I had basic questions about an 1892 I got (new), and they flubbed that totally. Same with this Model 70. Question: How do I tell if I got the right bolt with this rifle, as its packed separately? Answer: You can't. You'd need to disassemble the cocking piece, and extractor, then use a headspace field gauge. Real answer I finally deduced: The "assembly numbers" on the barrel, bolt, action, and stock should all match. Mine do. I didn't know that until I got the metal out of the wood though. And.... I can do this work, just need to know how it ought to be, what I need to make the parts do. I'll post a few snaps when I've got a moment.... Christmas essentials eating up my time! And I'm waiting for the AccraGlass Gel and stainless powder to arrive.

 

[Maurice]

Don't ya just wonder about threads like this, where there is no follow-up or report back about how things turned out?

A little condensation of the situation: New Winchester 70, seemingly bedded very high. Action screw(s) not engaged very much.

What I did: First thing was eyeball, measure, eyeball... measure.... and decided to lower the factory bedding. As I said earlier, I had an extra, slightly longer front action screw on hand, and should things need it, I got some (very sharp!) 1/4-32 dies, just in case I lowered things too much.

Here's what I did, and had to deal with. Let me say, I've got something like 4 Dremels, a Foredom, and a WEN knockoff of a Dremel. I used the WEN - its bearings are actually a little nicer than the Dremel. The Foredom would have done it, but I was afraid of having a bit too much power. Its not quite as controllable (since I lack the varispeed footswitch). Anyway, I used a nice little carbide rotary cutter and made line after line across the bedding front and back. Took it down to bare wood again.

After assembly just to see how things lined up, I noticed I got 10 full turns on the front action screw. Interesting.

I checked the fit of the bottom metal, and noticed with just the bottom metal in the receiver (no action, or magazine box) there was a bit of rocking. That got tracked down to a sloppy bedding job, where there was a few globs of original bedding that were wiped off the inside of the stock where the bottom metal fits. I decided to deal with that later on. Also checked the magazine box and it was just a tiny tiny bit too tall for the way I wanted the action to fit in the receiver. I'd deal with that later on too.

When the Accraglass Gel came in, I got the action rebedded lower into the stock. Trigger box clears the inletting by maybe .025ish or so (hard to measure, hard to really eyeball too). Barrel clears stock by a good amount though its length, no wood relief needed.

Dealing with the rock on the bottom metal, when things were all together, there were two points that needed attention. First the magazine box, and then the excess globs of old bedding. I addressed the latter first. Ground out the inletting at the bottom metal and bedded that just a hair deeper. It fits the inletting very well, near perfect. Next thing was to find the part of the magazine box that was a bit proud. The back end got taken down about .035ish (again, its angled, so hard to exact measure). I went slow, fit the box into things so it had about .015 "slop". Nothing rocks now, just goes together really nice. Action and barrel are no longer riding on what amounted to circus saddles of bedding, no rock, magazine fits with a little wiggle room to temperature and humidity variation, and the action screws now engage 8 turns up front, and 7 turns at the tang. I didn't use the longer action screw, nor thread anything to adjust for being lower.

I have not had the chance to shoot since the work was completed (just this morning!). I think it 'll be ok.

Did you bother to see how much further the action screws will go into the action when you had it out of the stock (with the bolt installed and closed)? Bet you only have another half turn on each of the screws at most. If you drop the action further down into the stock, you're going to have to shorten the action screws and end up with exactly the same amount of engagement that you have now.
And then, what about the length of the trigger? That's going to be making contact with the trigger guard.
And the depth of the barrel channel? You're going to have to adjust the depth there to match what you removed from under the action.
The factory actually had this figured out, and you are about to make an expensive mistake. But hey, it's your rifle, fuck it up as you will.
Oh, and post a pic when you're done.

I don't normally respond to this sort of thing, but in this case, for the good of the reading public, I will address a few things.
Yes, the action screws seated to the limit of their threads without bottoming out. No, I didn't have to shorten the action screws. Your statement is incorrect on that.

The trigger hitting the trigger guard (aka bottom metal). Not a chance on that, plenty of room. You should check the Model 70 (new) trigger. The real concern (and its not much or one) is the trigger "box" hitting the stock. It does not, but if it did, it would require a little easing of the wood where it hit.

Barrel channel had a whole bunch of air between metal and wood. There remains ample air, no relief needed.

Someone mentioned the ejection port.... it now resides as it ought to as well.

kl3309, don't take it personally, please. Some poor goofus in the future might read things and get their thinking counter to reality, so I just wanted to set the record straight as far as the technical aspects go.

I'm pretty much of the thought that while this rifle was being factory bedded, and it just didn't get tightened fully into the stock. Can't wait to shoot it. I've got 165g boat tails here on new brass and 55.5g of IMR4350 as propellant. Range won't be open till next Friday, so maybe I can sneak over there and see how things go.

I'll post a picture or two or three later on.

Thanks mick243, once again, for setting me straight on the magazine box.

 

[Maurice]

There's some quick snaps. Excuse the dust and fuzz and such...

If I don't mind saying so, I think it worked out well.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Can I have it?

 

[jetmd]

Nice job Sir!

Great follow up and detailed explanation.

While I feel the response by 3309 was a little rough please understand there are some absolute awesome talented people on the Hide, and some knuckleheads that probably aren’t sure which end of the bullet goes in the chamber first.

Lack of reading comprehension, torque wrench…..there’s a difference between Ft Lbs and In Lbs?

 

[Maurice]

Oops, I forgot to say, the one place I didn't touch was the "walls" of the original recoil lug bedding. Obviously, material removed from the top of the lug area, and I did add deepen the lug recess, but didn't touch that back part where recoil would slam the action against the stock. What I did do, was carve a little channel on the left and right sides, and two up front of the original bedding, so the Acraglass Gel could ooze thru. It did with only an apparent skin of new bedding at the sides and front. I think that worked out ok too. The assembly number, stamped into bottom of the recoil lug, appears on the new bedding (in reverse) just as it did on the old bedding too!

 

[softcock]

Oops, I forgot to say, the one place I didn't touch was the "walls" of the original recoil lug bedding. Obviously, material removed from the top of the lug area, and I did add deepen the lug recess, but didn't touch that back part where recoil would slam the action against the stock. What I did do, was carve a little channel on the left and right sides, and two up front of the original bedding, so the Acraglass Gel could ooze thru. It did with only an apparent skin of new bedding at the sides and front. I think that worked out ok too. The assembly number, stamped into bottom of the recoil lug, appears on the new bedding (in reverse) just as it did on the old bedding too!

I did a couple of Win.model 70's LA's actions years back, Bedding them in Manners and HS stocks, with using Williams one-piece BM.and using Acraglas epoxy. I remember it was a learning experience to say the least. Balancing act with bedding height, Tang end fitment, and bottom metal fitment . These were Not the first time I bedded Actions to Stocks, I still sticks in my head now having an LOT of hours invested in getting them GTG.
.

 

[Maurice]

I always get the "sure hope this thing comes out of the wood!" feeling, a little nausea, diarrhea..... Even "bedding" scales to pistols and revolvers, I get that feeling. Its always like "what did I miss?". Been lucky I guess.

 

[Ex E6]

There's some quick snaps. Excuse the dust and fuzz and such...

If I don't mind saying so, I think it worked out well.

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Nice Job , for future reference IF you ever intend on doing future refinishing :
Heads up with regards to touch up or refinishing ; Penetrating aka Dye Seal stains are a snap to make ,requires Dye powders just a few small bottles for a variety of shade color and intensity results . I prefer alcohol aka lacquer soluble as opposed to water base . Simply consult a stain deck or your example . Mixing light such as 70/30 prevents ruining stain color as you can add too the mixture 50/50 or even 60/40 is preferable for Non fading color fix * . One can apply stain over and over until desired color or match is achieved ,especially doing touch up work .
* Solvent is always first % ratio in formula mix .
The actual finish hard coat protection is again a personal preference . Some prefer Tung oil , Tru oil ,linseed oil finished with fine furniture wax .
I skip all that now and use a small auto detail spray gun and apply super durable clear sealer followed by two component clear urethane , 2-4 coats .
For the hand rubbed look I burnish with something similar to Rhyno sponges . Mine happen to go from 220-3200 grit . When complete pure carnuba wax soft cloth buff and it emulates 95% of Commercial Gun manufactures finishes .

https://www.mohawk-finishing.com/products/wood-staining-finishing/stains-glazes-colorants/

 

[Maurice]

Thanks for the info.

I'm fairly familiar with Mohawk, there's a (semi) local place that is a stocking Mohawk distributor. Gotta watch some dyes. I dyed a guitar I built "blue" and the Mohawk dye experienced what's known as dichroic separation, whereby the blue became brown and teal colored about a day after application. It didn't look too bad, but I got a whole lot of dye left over, and won't use it again now that I know its properties. Mohawk explained it to me, but its been a while. Something about Azo dye vs Metallic dye... technical stuff.

My favorite for stocks dye is one by Fiebing, for leather. Its alcohol based, color is "buckskin" and it does a jam up job giving that sort of deep reddish brown on stocks. Over dyes (if used) its BLO and Japan Dry. One heavy coat allowed to penetrate. After that very very thin, with lots of dry/cure time in between. Very thin = basically wiped off and allowed to cure.

Thanks again for the tips!

 

[Ex E6]

Thanks for the info.

I'm fairly familiar with Mohawk, there's a (semi) local place that is a stocking Mohawk distributor. Gotta watch some dyes. I dyed a guitar I built "blue" and the Mohawk dye experienced what's known as dichroic separation, whereby the blue became brown and teal colored about a day after application. It didn't look too bad, but I got a whole lot of dye left over, and won't use it again now that I know its properties. Mohawk explained it to me, but its been a while. Something about Azo dye vs Metallic dye... technical stuff.

My favorite for stocks dye is one by Fiebing, for leather. Its alcohol based, color is "buckskin" and it does a jam up job giving that sort of deep reddish brown on stocks. Over dyes (if used) its BLO and Japan Dry. One heavy coat allowed to penetrate. After that very very thin, with lots of dry/cure time in between. Very thin = basically wiped off and allowed to cure.

Thanks again for the tips!

Dyes can react with tannin's within the wood species itself . Aniline wood dyes are often hailed as having an advantage over wood stains for their clarity and saturation. They do not leave pigmentation on the surface of wood ,however due to the variety of wood species a Test area is called for ,as adverse reactions within some species of wood can occur .

Phthalo Blue Phthalocyanine blue are common copper based dyes and would react with tannic acid .

The Technical ( I'm a retired Aerospace PhD. Chemist as well as Structural Eng. ) Tannic acid along with specific Lignin react adversely with Metallic dyes . The Tannic acid in wood is corrosive to ferrous metals ,hence why some species show Blue or Black stain around nails screws and such .

Oak, walnut, cherry, mahogany Cedar and other specific Exotic species are problematic .
Also certain Lignin's aka complex Polymer structures which form cell walls within wood ,can contribute undesirable attributes .

PS : Organic Polymer's , " How when and why of plastics ", was MY doctoral Thesis .

 

[Maurice]

I may have made a mistake, but its correctable if need be.

I was thinking about this laying in bed half awake.....

Odds are, I varied the angle or tilt of the action in the stock. In fact, I'd be one lucky sob if it was perfect. In so doing, there's gonna be stress put on either the top or bottom of the place where the recoil lug fits. I'm gonna have to grind that out a bit, and re-bed that area, but the amount that its "off" shouldn't cause any issue other than accuracy. I'll shoot first, then look at the area stressed and let that guide my "corrective measures".

Anyway... just adding my own afterthought for the sake of others who might be reading.

 

[Maurice]

I managed to get a box of factory 150g '06 Federal cartridges from a friend. Took a shotgun, couple of SA's and the Winchester to the range. This was iron sight shooting, with eyes in their 7th decade of life... shooting 3 shot groups, anywhere from just under to just over two inches at 50 yards. That's about what I can do with my 10/22 or CZ and open sights at that distance, so I don't feel so bad. Looks like I dropped the front of the action a bit more than the rear on bedding it. Or, rather, they had the front too high at the factory.....(more like it). The ejection port is parallel with the stock now, at any rate. That's an easy fix to get things all full contact at the recoil lug. Before hand I was also able to get the trigger from just under 4lbs to about 2-1/2lbs. My scale is pretty crude (aka a cord, a cup and some 240g lead bullets as weight), but it feels pretty nice actually. The rifle shot about 6 inches low at 50 yards with the factory sight settings, but I noticed the blade is set as low as it goes. I won't be back to shoot some more until I can get a decent supply of primers, so... that's all there is for now.

 

[Ex E6]

I managed to get a box of factory 150g '06 Federal cartridges from a friend. Took a shotgun, couple of SA's and the Winchester to the range. This was iron sight shooting, with eyes in their 7th decade of life... shooting 3 shot groups, anywhere from just under to just over two inches at 50 yards. That's about what I can do with my 10/22 or CZ and open sights at that distance, so I don't feel so bad. Looks like I dropped the front of the action a bit more than the rear on bedding it. Or, rather, they had the front too high at the factory.....(more like it). The ejection port is parallel with the stock now, at any rate. That's an easy fix to get things all full contact at the recoil lug. Before hand I was also able to get the trigger from just under 4lbs to about 2-1/2lbs. My scale is pretty crude (aka a cord, a cup and some 240g lead bullets as weight), but it feels pretty nice actually. The rifle shot about 6 inches low at 50 yards with the factory sight settings, but I noticed the blade is set as low as it goes. I won't be back to shoot some more until I can get a decent supply of primers, so... that's all there is for now.

Should you ever find yourself with an extra $50-60 bucks ,a Lyman Digital is a very Good gauge ,IMO .

Not directed at anyone in particular ,rather advise for ALL of us . " IF " anyone attempts doing trigger work ,be damn sure You KNOW what you're doing and do it SLOWLY ,checking often so as too KNOW when to STOP !. I made that mistake once and REGRETTED it ,also ended up purchasing a New Trigger group . There's definitely an ANGLE which you DON'T exceed !.

https://www.brownells.com/tools-cle...mpaign=2448125&utm_medium=affiliate&source=ir​