Most accurate 338 solid projectile?

[Lofty]

I have a reamer on its way for a 33XC and its throated for solids. I have a Bartlein 1-8 barrel that is going to finish out at 32 inches.

What solid should I count on to give me the best accuracy results? Solids being as expensive as they are, I dont want to waste a lot of money chasing my tail, just curious what peoples experience has been.

 

[Chandalar]

Have friend that shoots a 338 L Imp 40deg @32' with Flatline 256 grain at 3404 with RL 26 @ 107.5gr. Bartlein gain twist, exit twist at 8. He was able to shoot an honest 6" group at 1641 yards. Send me PM and I'll send you a video of that shooten.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@Lofty
Are you planning to shoot mainly supersonic distances or do you intend to spend a fair amount of time shooting into trans and subsonic distances?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[kthomas]

Curious to see where this thread goes. Currently about to go down the lathe turned solid projectile route myself, but in .30 cal (.300NM).

I have so far loaded up some 198 Warner Flatlines and some 205 Badland ICBM projectiles to shoot on my next time out on the range. I've had these bullets sitting on my shelf for a while, and finally decided to load some up to play with. I was scared off by the supposedly short amount of freebore you need (or consequent big jump to the lands if using longer freebore), but was pleasantly surprised to find out that I could load the flatlines to ~0.010" off the lands and still mag feed them through my CIP mags with my standard freebore setup.

The flatlines have a very impressive BC - much higher than many (if not all) .30 cal projectiles. According to AB with it's custom drag curves, it's noticeably flatter out to distance than a 230 Berger. The issue with the flatlines, is that they are not designed to transition (Dan Warner stated that himself in another thread), but I haven't seen much reviews from end users on how they actually handle transition.

The other .30 cal solids are designed to transition and go into transonic, so theoretically they can handle that better. However, they have a lower BC than their jacketed counterparts (215, 230 Bergers, etc.) - this is comparing BC numbers from the manufacturers themelselves. The advantage you get with these projectiles is that they will fly much more predictably and reliably than their jacketed counterparts, as they are much more consistently produced, and you don't have to worry about jackets and cores deforming on it's way to the target.

I'm curious to see where this thread goes, as it appears the .30 and .33 cal projectile options are very similar. Not many people seem to be using solids in these calibers, so actual end user reviews are few and far between.

Now that I have found out that I can load up solids in my system without them having a crazy jump, I hope that through my upcoming testing, and through the reviews of others here, I can flush out the following:

1. Do the flatlines actually transition poorly in actual practice? If they perform well through transition, they look like they will be a winner. If not, I don't want to be stuck with expensive solids that are limited to 2,000 yards.
2. If the flatlines don't work out, will the other solids (CE, Badlands, etc.) have enough of a consistency flight path advantage over their jacketed counterparts to be worthwhile? Supposedly AB did a bunch of Doppler testing recently on just this - perhaps it will get released to the public soon.
3. Are the BC's of the CE Lazers and Badlands projo's in .30/.33 cal as deflated as they state? Or is it a conservative number which is much higher in actuality, making it more competitive with the Berger Hybrids, etc?

Looking forward to hearing others experience with lathe turned solids in these "smaller" ELR calibers. I hope to provide an update in few weeks with my own results down range with solids.

 

[Lofty]

Hi,

@Lofty
Are you planning to shoot mainly supersonic distances or do you intend to spend a fair amount of time shooting into trans and subsonic distances?

Sincerely,
Theis

I will most likely be staying within supersonic distances, considering how far a .338 solid projectile should be able to fly with the velocity that the XC should be able to push them.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Well in that case my vote is flatlines but you may want to contact David and see if tested any of Jim's projectiles in a super fast twist XC.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Alan Warner]

Gents,
We have not made much noise about it, but we are offering David's nose ring modification that enables our pills to transition and carry on in sub zones.
Matter of fact, we are making 255's with the ring tomorrow for more testing and demo by G David. After Octobers' session at a Dopler facility, we may have a 338 in 285 grain also. (these are out for prelim testing right now) Others lined up for the Dopler are two new 6mm's , two 6.5's and a couple 416's in estimated weights of 500 and 550--give or take .

We need a good all around machinist/toolmaker. Interested? send me your work history and we'll talk.

Alan

 

[Lofty]

I spoke with Warner briefly regarding their Flatlines and they said spin 'em as fast I want, even up to 7 twist. Seemed like quite a bit for a projectile hopefully running 3300-3400 FPS so I went a tad more moderate with the 8 twist.

Looks like the Warner bullets will be my first to try....hopefully I wont need to try any further.

 

[Lofty]

Gents,
We have not made much noise about it, but we are offering David's nose ring modification that enables our pills to transition and carry on in sub zones.
Matter of fact, we are making 255's with the ring tomorrow for more testing and demo by G David. After Octobers' session at a Dopler facility, we may have a 338 in 285 grain also. (these are out for prelim testing right now) Others lined up for the Dopler are two new 6mm's , two 6.5's and a couple 416's in estimated weights of 500 and 550--give or take .

We need a good all around machinist/toolmaker. Interested? send me your work history and we'll talk.

Alan

Excited to see those!!!

 

[Lofty]

Alan, as soon as I get some fired up brass out of this XC I will be sending them off to you to order one of your dies. I have heard great things.

 

[Dan Warner]

So far, we have added the Tubb nose ring to the 361gr and 400gr 375 bullets. These are available for sale right now. The reason that we have not made a lot of noise about it is because we would like to have our own test data on the modification with respect to performance. David can speak first hand as to his results; please feel free to contact him. As soon as we have our own data, we will publish it on our website along with all the others. Then we will make that modification available through our website. Until that is complete, please call us to place your order for the Tubb Nose Ring modification.

 

[TripleBull]

I'm psyched to see how this pans out but "Tubb nose ring" just doesn't have a good, ugg well... ring to it. Just an odd visual, sorry. Warner TNR?

OTOH, if David shows up at the Ko2M with a nose ring and blows everyone out of the water, I might get fitted.

 

[northern50]

Badlands 250 or 260 grain solids. I run the 250's and they are awesome. The guys I shoot with that have improved 338's and run the 260's are absolutely insane.

 

[Dan Warner]

I'm psyched to see how this pans out but "Tubb nose ring" just doesn't have a good, ugg well... ring to it. Just an odd visual, sorry. Warner TNR?

OTOH, if David shows up at the Ko2M with a nose ring and blows everyone out of the water, I might get fitted.

Never really though of it that way. Might be a funny marketing ploy; side by side pictures, one of a tattooed guy with a bull ring hanging from his nose, and the other with a Flatline with its modification and a caption below that states "One of these will get you through transonic flight, the other thinks it can fly, whats your preference?" It would be quite funny to see Davis with a nose ring to play on the words, but I won't be the one to suggest it.

 

[damoncali]

Is there some sort of explaination of how this ring modification works out there somewhere?

 

[jbailey]

Others lined up for the Dopler are two new 6mm's , two 6.5's and a couple 416's in estimated weights of 500 and 550--give or take .

Any stats on the new 6mm's? Weight, BC, Form Factor, cost, release date?

Got to get out w/ my 308/198gr Flatline load again... looking for another chance for a 3 round or earlier impact at >2100yds...

 

[lash]

I spoke with Warner briefly regarding their Flatlines and they said spin 'em as fast I want, even up to 7 twist. Seemed like quite a bit for a projectile hopefully running 3300-3400 FPS so I went a tad more moderate with the 8 twist.

Looks like the Warner bullets will be my first to try....hopefully I wont need to try any further.

I only have a lowly .338 LM, but the Flatlines 256s are very accurate as far as I've shot them (to 1840 yds) in Florida. I'll provide the caveat that they do not print as tight on paper at 100 yards as the lead core contenders, but truly settle in at the longer distances. Before anyone accuses me of BS or sleeping bullets talk, read through Jim Boatwright's papers on solid bullets and how they act at short and longer distances with standard twist barrels.

 

[steve123]

I only have a lowly .338 LM, but the Flatlines 256s are very accurate as far as I've shot them (to 1840 yds) in Florida. I'll provide the caveat that they do not print as tight on paper at 100 yards as the lead core contenders, but truly settle in at the longer distances. Before anyone accuses me of BS or sleeping bullets talk, read through Jim Boatwright's papers on solid bullets and how they act at short and longer distances with standard twist barrels.

Yeah, I remember being ridiculed here on the Hide about this happening with the 350 grain solids with my 375CT years ago.

 

[lash]

Without the physics discussion as to why and how this happens, it is somewhat difficult to believe at first, I'll admit. Another guy at our club sold his off after not being able to get them to print tiny groups at 100 yards. After seeing how tight the ES/SD were on my loads, I took a chance and worked them out to distance slowly, making sure that the impacts matched the expectations. It turns out that I was not disappointed.

If for some crazy reason you just must have sub-1/2 moa groups at 100 yards, just use 285g Hornadys. Though I prefer to use my .338 for mostly 1000+, Seems like a waste of power otherwise.

 

[steve123]

Back then the 350 Hookers were $160 a piece, then 130 grains of Retumbo, the brass sucked and lasted 2-3 firings and was $2.50 a piece. I spent a small fortune trying to tune at 100Y. With the last 10 rounds of the most accurate load "before I was going to send the rifle back to the GS" I decided to try groups at 400Y just for the heck of it and got two back to back 2.5" groups! It was a head scratching moment. IN that barrel I had what was called a "lost River bore", a little different than a normal bore, and an 11twist.

But I've seen small groups shot at 100Y with solids here on the Hide as well, so I think some combinations of twist, bore, and projectiles, are less sensitive than others???

 

[lash]

There is most definitely a correlation between twist rate and shorter range stability with solids. Warner knows and tries to lead people towards faster twist barrels to shoot solids from. Jim Boatwright has his whole paper on hyper stabilization that pushes forward the idea that much faster rates of twist (20 times caliber) will stabilize the long and light for caliber solids much earlier.

I think that this is a prime application for gain twist and hope to have the time to test these ideas for myself one day.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@steve123
That is crazy that people disputed the fact in regards to the 350gr Hooker Tactical (Of the original Lost River Design) would perform better at 500m+/- a few meters. That was a proven fact back when they were first tested at Yuma. Same as the original Lost River Design of the 419gr .408 projectiles. Yuma testing proved that the BC increased at around the 500m mark. That is because that is where the projectile finally became stabilized optimally.
Now there was a time span of about 1 year in which everybody claimed there was just no way for the BC to increase farther down range than it was it the "muzzle" but once the actual white paper(s) were released from the Yuma testing that doubt sorta went to the way-side.

The Lost River Bore was first done by mistake; Bobby at Lawton made a mistake when making a batch of barrels..BUT it turned out they shot the Lost River M40 Projectiles better because the M40 models of the Lost River Projectiles were such hard alloy that the normal spec'd rifling profile was too tight for them. It caused erratic pressure issues with the M40s but not the J40s. So after that Lawton ran with the Lost River Bore specifications.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[steve123]

There was one other guy on the Hide that had found the same thing as I did with his Lawton 375CT. We both were laughed at big time. My label was "the projectile had not gone to sleep yet". He blamed it on obteration IIRC. Maybe it's the same thing, I don't know???

Those 350's did sail well and I shot some smallish groups at ELR distances with the best being a 6" three shot group at 2050Y. At 2500Y my friend and I had peppered a 4' plate, we hit it most of the time on a calm morning, the misses were pretty much getting on it to begin with, and when a small breeze came up.

This next year I'll start playing more with ELR again once I get a new barrel, still deciding what cartridge to do in a Surgeon XL. I'd have to buy a new bolt to try a 33XC, but it's tempting.

 

[George F]

The 204 gr .308ICBM was not a bullet designed for ELR. Its profile was designed primarily for hunting applications and the hunting version is the 196gr Bulldozer. It can be launched easily over 3000 fps from a WSM, 300WM and 3150-3200 from the RUM. Able to kill Moose with one shot at 500+ yds and penetrate it fully with a shoulder shot. We are testing a line of heavy 30 cal ELR bullets that will out perform any lead core and will transition well and print tight groups at 100 yds. Our prototype 190gr shot a 4 shot .33" group from a 9 twist barrel on a Savage action the first 4 shots ever taken with that bullet using a 300WSM. In the .308 Win it can be pushed to 2750+ fps from a 24" barrel. Winter has dampened our testing but from a 300Norma in freezing drizzle we have measured a G1BC of .775 to 772 yds. We are able to measure BCs through out the entire supersonic and transonic flight of the bullet given decent weather and the property to shoot. Interesting things happen when our bullets transition to the subsonic velocity. It actually increases, clearly showing the bullet is stable.

 

[Matthew488]

The 204 gr .308ICBM was not a bullet designed for ELR. Its profile was designed primarily for hunting applications and the hunting version is the 196gr Bulldozer. It can be launched easily over 3000 fps from a WSM, 300WM and 3150-3200 from the RUM. Able to kill Moose with one shot at 500+ yds and penetrate it fully with a shoulder shot. We are testing a line of heavy 30 cal ELR bullets that will out perform any lead core and will transition well and print tight groups at 100 yds. Our prototype 190gr shot a 4 shot .33" group from a 9 twist barrel on a Savage action the first 4 shots ever taken with that bullet using a 300WSM. In the .308 Win it can be pushed to 2750+ fps from a 24" barrel. Winter has dampened our testing but from a 300Norma in freezing drizzle we have measured a G1BC of .775 to 772 yds. We are able to measure BCs through out the entire supersonic and transonic flight of the bullet given decent weather and the property to shoot. Interesting things happen when our bullets transition to the subsonic velocity. It actually increases, clearly showing the bullet is stable.

Are you working on any 375 projectiles?

 

[kthomas]

The 204 gr .308ICBM was not a bullet designed for ELR. Its profile was designed primarily for hunting applications and the hunting version is the 196gr Bulldozer. It can be launched easily over 3000 fps from a WSM, 300WM and 3150-3200 from the RUM. Able to kill Moose with one shot at 500+ yds and penetrate it fully with a shoulder shot. We are testing a line of heavy 30 cal ELR bullets that will out perform any lead core and will transition well and print tight groups at 100 yds. Our prototype 190gr shot a 4 shot .33" group from a 9 twist barrel on a Savage action the first 4 shots ever taken with that bullet using a 300WSM. In the .308 Win it can be pushed to 2750+ fps from a 24" barrel. Winter has dampened our testing but from a 300Norma in freezing drizzle we have measured a G1BC of .775 to 772 yds. We are able to measure BCs through out the entire supersonic and transonic flight of the bullet given decent weather and the property to shoot. Interesting things happen when our bullets transition to the subsonic velocity. It actually increases, clearly showing the bullet is stable.

Interested to see what you come up with, always interested in new projectile offerings that I can use in my .300NM.