mounted new vortex razor: not happy with my heartbeat jitter

[Walter Haas]

Hi, guys, newbie here. I just installed my Vortex razor on my rifle. When I run it out to 27X its clear my heart pulse is causing by far the largest jitter in the sight picture. I'm dry firing at a tree knot about 700 yards away. The reticle is ebr2c which has a tiny hollow square in the dead center. That square is bouncing back and forth about 3 square widths per heartbeat. Admittedly I've yet to shoot this rifle but how can that not be a problem? What can I do about it?

I read on this forum to try a few things.

So far I tried:

1. relaxing either hand and both hands
2. not pulling the stock into my shoulder too hard
3. changing where the stock sits in my shoulder
4. varying cheek pressure

Each of these things seems to contribute a little bit to the problem and they add up. The strange thing was it only completely went away when I didn't touch the rifle at all, not even the cheek. Just the cheek contact alone produced perceptible bounce.

Also, I found it notable that the jitter was almost entirely horizontal, not up and down.

Admittedly I've never shot this thing before and I have no idea whether this is as big an issue as it seems. Maybe this weekend I'll go break in my barrel and see how I shoot in the process. For all I know I can't even shoot well enough to even zero the rifle.

 

[MCHOG]

in what positions are you and the rifle when you are looking through the reticle? If prone, how is the rifle supported in the front and the rear? Bipod? Bag(s)?

It has nothing to do with the scope, other than high magnification will magnify movement the same way it magnifies objects.

 

[hlee]

This is part of the reason that "free recoil" has become a thing with mild recoiling cartridges in heavy rifles being used for PRS style shooting.

Like said above, it is a function of your position. Figure out what is causing your heart to beat through your chest and you've got your answer. I have found that if lying prone, really low, that I can feel my heart beat shifting my entire upper body. Get off my chest and it mostly goes away.

 

[lash]

Back off on the magnification. Shoot your first shots at about 10x. You’ll notice much less reticle jump at lower magnification.

and go out and shoot. Get it over with. Enjoy the process. Shoot more and you’ll notice this less.

 

[Walter Haas]

in what positions are you and the rifle when you are looking through the reticle? If prone, how is the rifle supported in the front and the rear? Bipod? Bag(s)?

It has nothing to do with the scope, other than high magnification will magnify movement the same way it magnifies objects.

bench rest only, with rear bag and bipod front

 

[308pirate]

bench rest only, with rear bag and bipod front

Holy shit

You're doing something seriously wrong if you're transmitting that much pulse to the rifle on the bench.

 

[1911hombre]

Back off the coffee and do some relaxation breathing. Seriously. BTW, what's your typical BP?

 

[ShtrRdy]

Are you pressing your chest/torso into the bench?

 

[MCHOG]

bench rest only, with rear bag and bipod front

You are probably pushing your chest hard against the bench, which either transmits movement back through your body or moves a less-than-sold bench. I'd suggest getting on the ground in a "high prone" position (upper chest off the ground and supported by your elbows). Put the rear of the rifle as close to the center line of your shoulder (essentially your clavicle) as possible. Rest the bottom of the stock on a small rear bag that is controlled by your non-shooting hand. Rest your cheek against the rifle naturally. When you exhale and your rifle settles during your natural respiratory pause, the reticle should be essentially motionless.

That assumes you have the rifle set up properly for correct cheek weld and eye relief. If not, you forcing your eye into the correct position will create movement due to muscle tension. Test it by getting into position, closing your eyes, laying your cheek on the rest, taking a few deep breaths, and open your eyes after the last exhale. If you have a good sight picture, then you are set up correctly.

 

[bigwatchpilot]

go to the gym...work on your core strength, the bench, stock, bag or whatever is not there to support your body.

 

[smoothy8500]

I'm dry firing at a tree knot...That square is bouncing back and forth about 3 square widths per heartbeat. Admittedly I've yet to shoot this rifle but how can that not be a problem? What can I do about it?

Keep dry-firing. One of the positives that NRA Highpower training instills is the reliance on dry-firing and learning to accept your "wobble zone". Pulse bounce is inevitable but you will learn to ignore the bounce and shoot accurately.

 

[Walter Haas]

You are probably pushing your chest hard against the bench, which either transmits movement back through your body or moves a less-than-sold bench. I'd suggest getting on the ground in a "high prone" position (upper chest off the ground and supported by your elbows). Put the rear of the rifle as close to the center line of your shoulder (essentially your clavicle) as possible. Rest the bottom of the stock on a small rear bag that is controlled by your non-shooting hand. Rest your cheek against the rifle naturally. When you exhale and your rifle settles during your natural respiratory pause, the reticle should be essentially motionless.

That assumes you have the rifle set up properly for correct cheek weld and eye relief. If not, you forcing your eye into the correct position will create movement due to muscle tension. Test it by getting into position, closing your eyes, laying your cheek on the rest, taking a few deep breaths, and open your eyes after the last exhale. If you have a good sight picture, then you are set up correctly.

Thanks, I'll try these things.

 

[Walter Haas]

Back off the coffee and do some relaxation breathing. Seriously. BTW, what's your typical BP?

Its so high I won't check it anymore; I'm afraid to know.

 

[Walter Haas]

Are you pressing your chest/torso into the bench?

Its not really a bench. The bipod is on my desktop and the rear monopod is on a bag which is on a round end table. The overall height is lower than a real bench so I'm scrunched.

 

[Walter Haas]

Holy shit

You're doing something seriously wrong if you're transmitting that much pulse to the rifle on the bench.

Someone said I should be pulling the rifle into my shoulder with the same pounds that the rifle weighs, which is 20lbs or so. The Vortex Razor is almost 4 lbs and the rifle is over 15 lbs. Can't really tell how hard I'm pulling it into my shoulder but probably 10 lbs easy.

 

[TxWelder35]

Someone said I should be pulling the rifle into my shoulder with the same pounds that the rifle weighs, which is 20lbs or so. The Vortex Razor is almost 4 lbs and the rifle is over 15 lbs. Can't really tell how hard I'm pulling it into my shoulder but probably 10 lbs easy.

Quit doing that. You only want to take up whatever slack is in the bipod. You don’t need to be leaned heavy into the rifle.

 

[Walter Haas]

Quit doing that. You only want to take up whatever slack is in the bipod. You don’t need to be leaned heavy into the rifle.

okay. how much force should I pull in with? I've never shot a .308 before so I'm anticipating that it kicks like a mule. Sunday I will shoot it for the first time.

 

[ken4570tc in WY]

A couple of techniques I learned was to use controlled relaxed breathing through the nostrils while in position, taking in a deeper breath then exhaling gently and hold while breaking the trigger. You'll notice a milder heart beat or two with less wobble. Try to time your trigger break so it happens at the same side of the wobble every time. It takes practice but can reduce group sizes significantly. If you don't like the wobble of your heart beat just wait till you get to add in mirage effect at distance. The best 1000 yard ten shot group I shot, I had to crank down the magnification to 10x. After this you get to learn how to read the wind. The challenges never end!

 

[TxWelder35]

okay. how much force should I pull in with? I've never shot a .308 before so I'm anticipating that it kicks like a mule. Sunday I will shoot it for the first time.

None. Lean into the rifle just enough to take the slack out, Trigger hand has one job. Pull the trigger. No more no less.

308 doesn’t kick bad. Don’t be a little girl about it. as long as you don’t have a gap in between in the stock and your shoulder, which you never should if you are taking up the bipods slack, it’s never going to hurt you

honestly the best thing you could do is pay for the online training access and watch all of Frank’s videos. They are extremely informative and will keep you from chasing your tail

 

[Precision Underground]

okay. how much force should I pull in with? I've never shot a .308 before so I'm anticipating that it kicks like a mule. Sunday I will shoot it for the first time.

To each his own. When I shoot heavy rifles with recoil I pull pretty hard into my shoulder. Key is you need to be relaxed and only pull with your bicep. It can be a tricky thing to pull into your shoulder while keeping the shoulder relaxed. If you are tensed up in other areas you will have all kinds of trouble, including conducting your heartbeat into the rifle. I would suggest a getting off the bench, especially if it’s a makeshift bench that is not rock solid. If you are just looking to do static shooting get a mat and go prone. It’s not magic and you need good fundamentals when prone but it’s a lot easier than trying to make it work on a wobbly two part bench.

Check out our rear bags. They are great for all shooters but they seem to especially help more novice shooters be more consistent. I’m not much of a salesman but we offer a money back guarantee which no one has yet to take us up on.

 

[Precision Underground]

None. Lean into the rifle just enough to take the slack out, Trigger hand has one job. Pull the trigger. No more no less.

308 doesn’t kick bad. Don’t be a little girl about it. as long as you don’t have a gap in between in the stock and your shoulder, which you never should if you are taking up the bipods slack, it’s never going to hurt you

honestly the best thing you could do is pay for the online training access and watch all of Frank’s videos. They are extremely informative and will keep you from chasing your tail

This is terrible advice IMO. You never want to “lean into the rifle” and you need to pull the rifle into you to connect it. Maybe you are meaning to position your body so there is no slack in the bipod but that is NOT leaning into the rifle. Tell a new shooter to “lean into the rifle” with zero firing hand control and you will send them down a bottomless rabbit hole if there is any recoil to deal with.

The firing hand’s job includes pulling straight back to connect the rifle to the shooter. The key is to do it with the bicep only and with a relaxed shoulder and body position that places the reticle on the target with no steering. How hard to pull is dependent on rifle weight and how much recoil there is.

 

[TxWelder35]

This is terrible advice IMO. You never want to “lean into the rifle” and you need to pull the rifle into you to connect it. Maybe you are meaning to position your body so there is no slack in the bipod but that is NOT leaning into the rifle. Tell a new shooter to “lean into the rifle” with zero firing hand control and you will send them down a bottomless rabbit hole if there is any recoil to deal with.

The firing hand’s job includes pulling straight back to connect the rifle to the shooter. The key is to do it with the bicep only and with a relaxed shoulder and body position that places the reticle on the target with no steering. How hard to pull is dependent on rifle weight and how much recoil there is.

Lean into was the wrong way to phrase that. He is right. When laying prone I’m not necessarily leaning, but when I lay down I positioned when my shoulder pushed into the rifle just a little bit. Thank you for the correction

 

[308pirate]

the rear monopod is on a bag which is on a round end table.

Get rid of the monopod. It's a useless gimmick.

Have someone take a picture (or several) of you in this setup/firing position. I've read all your posts and it seems like you're contorted into some rube goldberg position.

But without us being able to see what you're doing, you're bound to get a ton of conflicting advice.

 

[Steel head]

To each his own. When I shoot heavy rifles with recoil I pull pretty hard into my shoulder. Key is you need to be relaxed and only pull with your bicep. It can be a tricky thing to pull into your shoulder while keeping the shoulder relaxed. If you are tensed up in other areas you will have all kinds of trouble, including conducting your heartbeat into the rifle. I would suggest a getting off the bench, especially if it’s a makeshift bench that is not rock solid. If you are just looking to do static shooting get a mat and go prone. It’s not magic and you need good fundamentals when prone but it’s a lot easier than trying to make it work on a wobbly two part bench.

Check out our rear bags. They are great for all shooters but they seem to especially help more novice shooters be more consistent. I’m not much of a salesman but we offer a money back guarantee which no one has yet to take us up on.

same, a light hold on a big 30 or 338 doesn’t work well.
I pull firmly to lock the butt pad in my shoulder.

With the awesome bipods avaiable now barrel torquing isn’t as big of an issue but my hand is messed up from work so I’m still a pistol gripper, not a thumb floater.

A 338 with a so so bipod definitely gave the advantage to a pistol grip hold.

I basically hold every rifle like it’s a big magnum, even Buttercup, my super soft recoiling 260.

PU bags are awesome
<<<<<Happy PU customer

 

[Precision Underground]

Lean into was the wrong way to phrase that. He is right. When laying prone I’m not necessarily leaning, but when I lay down I positioned when my shoulder pushed into the rifle just a little bit. Thank you for the correction

Definitely don’t push the rifle with your shoulder either. It may be semantics but I think what you are trying to get at is setting your body so that the rifle is in your shoulder without pulling it back to your shoulder. Scoot forward, don’t push forward.

 

[Steel head]

Definitely don’t push the rifle with your shoulder either. It may be semantics but I think what you are trying to get at is setting your body so that the rifle is in your shoulder without pulling it back to your shoulder. Scoot forward, don’t push forward.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Relax. Wether on a bench or the floor, Get into a position that is comfortable as in one you could sit and watch TV through your scope comfortable. You should be able to easily pull and hold the rifle with your trigger hand into your shoulder with enough pressure to stabilize your view and marry yourself to the rifle. Again not too hard as your straining after a few seconds.

You can also try a pad or rag on your cheek rest in case thats where the pulse is coming from.

 

[TxWelder35]

Definitely don’t push the rifle with your shoulder either. It may be semantics but I think what you are trying to get at is setting your body so that the rifle is in your shoulder without pulling it back to your shoulder. Scoot forward, don’t push forward.

Yes. Apparently I’ma horrible teacher lol.

for me I set up behind the gun to where my muscles are not doing any work. set up naturally, scooted into the rifle. You should be able to look through the scope, close your eyes, be relaxed, open them back ip and still be aiming at the same spot

 

[matth]

okay. how much force should I pull in with? I've never shot a .308 before so I'm anticipating that it kicks like a mule. Sunday I will shoot it for the first time.

From one of your previous comments, you indicated that you were told to get into it about the same weight of the rifle and that the rifle was about 20 pounds. If that's accurate, the blast of the .308 is probably going to surprise/flinch you more than the recoil will. I'm sure you'll get some muzzle rise, but you're definitely not going to get beat up at that weight for sure with a .308. Get that part out of your head.

You also mentioned you're 'scrunching' while doing these sight check/dry fire exercises, which suggests you're using and holding a lot more muscle to get into position than you should be. I have to believe that's going to magnify the effects of every biophysical element, heart rate and BP included. On the breathing topic, remember that good relaxation breaths come from the diaphragm, not the chest.

As others have said, try to be relaxed and just go shoot. I'm just guessing here, but you might be doing a bit of overthinking and worrying on all of this. I also wouldn't grade/weigh the experiences you're having off of a surface you probably never intend to shoot from highly, either.

 

[Walter Haas]

None. Lean into the rifle just enough to take the slack out, Trigger hand has one job. Pull the trigger. No more no less.

308 doesn’t kick bad. Don’t be a little girl about it. as long as you don’t have a gap in between in the stock and your shoulder, which you never should if you are taking up the bipods slack, it’s never going to hurt you

honestly the best thing you could do is pay for the online training access and watch all of Frank’s videos. They are extremely informative and will keep you from chasing your tail

What online training? I haven't seen that. I'm signed up for a two day course with Steyr in Alabama in late March.

 

[lash]

What online training? I haven't seen that. I'm signed up for a two day course with Steyr in Alabama in late March.

Here on Sniper’s Hide:

Up top on your menu choices, choose “Upgrade”. Then sign up for online training.

 

[Walter Haas]

Get rid of the monopod. It's a useless gimmick.

Have someone take a picture (or several) of you in this setup/firing position. I've read all your posts and it seems like you're contorted into some rube goldberg position.

But without us being able to see what you're doing, you're bound to get a ton of conflicting advice.

Funny you mention rube goldberg, he worked for the San Francisco Water Department as his first job in 1904. My brother is currently the acting general manager of the San Francisco Water Department. Side note, I live in San Francisco and my WASTE water cost is four times what freshwater costs. In other words, 20% of the bill is for fresh water. They don't measure your wastewater, they just assume the wastewater volume equals the cleanwater volume. My brother says the wastewater, after they treat it, is cleaner and safer than the drinking water. And of course this wastewater-cleaner-than-freshwater just gets dumped out. And we've got the whole Pacific Ocean sitting right here on the west side of the city. In the old days they had a pipe and pumped SF wastewater a mile off shore into the ocean. Didn't cost a dime.

 

[Walter Haas]

Here on Sniper’s Hide:
View attachment 7233764
Up top on your menu choices, choose “Upgrade”. Then sign up for online training.

Thanks! I will check it out.

 

[Steel head]

Here on Sniper’s Hide:
View attachment 7233764
Up top on your menu choices, choose “Upgrade”. Then sign up for online training.

Thanks! I will check it out.

I was on it for a year or so on the old hide till it went to scout.
It was totally worth it and I’m sure there’s a lot more content now.

 

[Walter Haas]

I was on it for a year or so on the old hide till it went to scout.
It was totally worth it and I’m sure there’s a lot more content now.

What do you mean "till it went to scout"?
I'm finding sniper's hide to be bigger and more multidimensional than I first thought. I assumed it was just a forum but it seems to have many outward links to related topics.

 

[Steel head]

What do you mean "till it went to scout"?
I'm finding sniper's hide to be bigger and more multidimensional than I first thought. I assumed it was just a forum but it seems to have many outward links to related topics.

I joined here then after a few years I think the hide merged with scout, then it went back to being on its own.

I didn’t like all the stuff scout brought with it and am glad Frank bailed from it.

It’s a bit more trolly now but I kinda enjoy that.
It’s still not a nanny forum and I love that part.

I got booted from another forum because I hurt people’s feelings and offended them.

Here most have some skin.


The information here and in past posts is amazing!

 

[308pirate]

I joined here then after a few years I think the hide merged with scout, then it went back to being on its own.

I didn’t like all the stuff scout brought with it and am glad Frank bailed from it.

It’s a bit more trolly now but I kinda enjoy that.
It’s still not a nanny forum and I love that part.

I got booted from another forum because I hurt people’s feelings and offended them.
View attachment 7233786
Here most have some skin.


The information here and in past posts is amazing!

I wear my lifetime ban from the brian anus forum with pride.

 

[E-Tool]

I am familiar with this, either you're getting too excited, holding your breath rather than pausing. You should be able to have a predictable elevation change with breathing and a predictable twitch with a pulse. If you are doing the fundamentals right and have a good NPA, exhale and shoot on the pause, the heart twitch should be steady and predictable enough to fire on one side of the twitch or the other.

At least that’s how I do it on call of duty.