Mounting a scope...on an old rifle...

[pbreed]

I have my Dad's BSA Martini Mk II match grade 22LR.
I'd like to mount a modern scope on it. (Sacrilege I know...)
I have a very old scope for it, but it is a fragile monster.
Poor by modern standards... (Thought it was amazing when I last shot it in 1980)

I ordered an Arken 4x16 44mm to put on it.
I've got some 11mm to 30mm rings,
Its got 11mm mounts on the rifle alas they are too far apart for a modern scope.

The barrel is slightly tapered so I can't just mount a longer rail on the same mount points or it won't point right...
(The front mount is thicker than the rear mount to account for this)

The existing 11mm dove tail scope mounts are 10.75" center to center.

Worst case I could buy some 11mm dove tail and mill a tapered round into it.
I have access to a Tormach CNC mill, it would just take hours to setup and get the precision
I think this rifle deserves....

You can see the rifle described here with a nice diagram of showing the scope mounts...

https://www.rifleman.org.uk/BSA_Martini_International_Mks.I_and_II.html

Suggestions?

 

[MajorD]

The “old scope”? Lyman Fecker unertl,other? I would stick with a classic long tube scope there is a company iron sight inc. that rebuilds/ repairs the old classic scopes. There are a number of companies that make a scope mount for the old martinis I can’t recall the names off hand. I always liked and enjoyed shooting with the old external adjustment scopes, and considering they were used in combat are not as fragile as you might think.

 

[Overwatch260]

I have no first-hand experience with those fine old Martini rifles, but they have the same spacing on the rear scope block holes as a Remington 37 or Winchester 52 I believe... EGW makes these cantilever picatinny rails and they do list the Martini MK2 & MK3 in the fitment. Also options in steel or aluminum construction & 20 MOA, 0 MOA or -20 MOA for more tapered barrel profiles. Just another option to consider that would bolt on directly & could use standard 30mm picatinny rings as well. Here's a link to the steel example even though they've been tricky to find lately...

https://egwguns.com/hd-steel-winchester-52-target-picatinny-scope-mount-0-moa

What was the old fragile scope that was on there?

 

[pbreed]

Its a lyman super targetspot.

 

[Overwatch260]

Man they're great old scopes, I have a couple of them in 15X on my Winchester 52B target rifles. I'd definitely consider the EGW mount option, it's a direct bolt on deal, no modifications to the rifle & you always have the option to swap back to the original rear scope block & use that Super Targetspot again if you're feeling nostalgic.

 

[340mech]

BSA martini international Scope Mount Mk 2,3,4,5 | eBay

Scope mount for the Martini Internationals Mk2,3,4,5. Very well engineered mount.

www.ebay.com

There is also a guy in Australia who makes a similar mount, and I think you could get in touch with him at Rimfire Central. You could also make your own.

 

[pbreed]

My mechanical engineer intuitive sense says that a mount mounted only on one end with 2 screws 22mm apart is not going
to be as rigid and stable as a mount that support the scope on both ends... with 100mm or more between mount points.
I'll probably just get some rail and machine a taper in it to match the barrel or maybe even put 10 MOA or so rise in it.

 

[woogie_man]

Are you sure you don't have plugs in the barrel where mounting blocks are able to be installed? I have an international that has original peep sights on it and have been listing at a few unertls for the rifle.

Don't go to drastic with modifying the rifle. As much as we never want to sell a rifle, if something comes up you don't want to dick up the value with a shitty mount job.


For a replica if an actual scope is out of range..

https://hi-luxoptics.com/collections/vintage-reproduction-scopes/unertl?srsltid=AfmBOorO2_F2taSjTY9DGroueKTuNWqlB86wmMQdEgo-REGRoDnEJ3bp

 

[pbreed]

I have the original 11mm dovetail scope mounts on the rifle they are too far apart for a modern scope.
I believe they are 7.2inches or some such to give correctly calibrated 1moa adjustments to the lyman external adjustment scope.

I have the Lyman scope in the wooden case I guess I can take that to the range and see how it goes.
It has a tiny tiny dot in the reticle, no cross hairs... easy to not see the dot if there is any clutter in the view.
Kind of a different beast...

 

[RTH1800]

It’s impossible to achieve accuracy with those old scopes and they are so ugly.

They are not useful for hunting either. Just trash the rifle and move on. Be sure to drill it full of holes so no one else ever falls victim to it.

 

[pbreed]

Nice shooting...
but its not new...
It has no wiz (still has some bang, just no wiz-bang)
Where are the plastic parts?
Where does one put the battery or the bluetooth connection... it must be inferior....
How do you upload the video to youtube?
How do you shoot the invisible aliens you can only see infrared?

Next thing your going to tell me you still use a manual screw driver hand saw and a hammer...., or god help us,
a chisel and a hand plane.

Troglodytes ,Troglodytes everywhere as far as you can see....

Yeah shame me... your right.

Paul

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Could do this. Ordered some raw pic rail from either brownells or egw and mounted it on the original scope block mount holes in the barrel. Machined the bottom part of the rail to match barrel OD with the appropriate sized ball end mill. Or go the easy way as mentioned in post number six above

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

EGW raw and anodized rail sections: https://egwguns.com/scope-mounts-rings/extrusions-drop

IIRC I think I had a .0065” or 0075” drop per inch taper cut when I machined the bottom part with a 1” ball endmill. This simple looking part had a fairly complex CADCAM toolpath as I had to account for both the taper for MOA drop , and the changing barrel diameter taper. If you look closely at the sideview picture you can see the front of the pic rail is taller than the rear portion.

I am pleased with how the pic rail came out. Too bad the barrel looks like molten lava flowed through it when viewed with a borescope. Wont group better than .75” at 50 yards regardless of ammo used. Probably gonna have it relined by the school of trades or Fritz as I would like to keep the original barrel with its proof markings intact. Got it from Orkan when I first joined this forum and gambled on its accuracy, unfortunately 60 years of corrosion had really eaten away the rifling. Wanted to use it for ARA benchrest competition, but wound up using an anschutz instead.

 

[Sniff]

Very cool. I thought I had a picture of my own BSA MkII to post but I can't find it.

I'll have to get it out of the safe and take a couple.

 

[woogie_man]

Could do this. Ordered some raw pic rail from either brownells or egw and mounted it on the original scope block mount holes in the barrel. Machined the bottom part of the rail to match barrel OD with the appropriate sized ball end mill. Or go the easy way as mentioned in post number six above View attachment 8570755View attachment 8570756View attachment 8570757View attachment 8570759

DUDE!!! that is an awesome solution to the problem! Would have never thought of that. So the rail is bolted to the two bosses for an older style scope?

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

So the rail is bolted to the two bosses for an older style scope?

No, I took the scope blocks off the barrel and picked up their threaded hole locations in the barrel with a CMM probe and bored screw holes in the new pic rail to match. The pic rail is screwed directly to the barrel. Like I stated earlier, this simple looking part had a lot of thought put into it and took more machining programming than intended, but it turned out pretty good. Thanks

 

[Sniff]

It's over a month since I said I'd post a photo, but here's my BSA International with a rail added. I don't know who did it, it was done when I got it.
The rail is mounted to the barrel.

Yes, the scope is mounted very high, but that was a spare mount I had at the time and I've never bothered t change it because I'd have to fork out money for some very high rings.

I had about eight inches cut off the barrel and had it threaded for the suppressor, which is a MAE stainless one. Because of the high volume of the can and the minimal action noise, this a stupidly quiet rifle with subsonic, or even standard velocity ammo.

With good match ammo it groups under an inch on a still day. I've shot it fuck-all since buying my Bergara.

 

[AirGunShawn]

I don't like altering guns If I can help it. The French built MAS 45 below was a great example of making a simple
no smith mount. I sketched it up and had a guy on evil-bay make me three of them. You remove the rear sight by pressing down on it and pulling it rearward. That exposes two sight base attachment screws. With the mount you can use 11mm dovetail or go to Picatinny with a cheap adapter. The MAS is actually a very accurate rifle If you put an optic on it. I test with my 5-50 Trijicons but, they look a bit silly on many older rifles !!