Rifle Scopes Multi-Caliber System and Scope Choice

[powerspc]

I am in the build queue for my next rifle which will be a true multi-caliber system in .338 Lapua Magnum, .300 Winchester Magnum and .308 Winchester. It got me thinking about scope choices and the following question; does/did a multi-caliber system influence your choice of scope? Or maybe put differently; should a multi-caliber system influence your choice of scope? Just curious what the thinking is or does it not matter at all?

 

[rtpguy]

Personally, I'd go about it from the standpoint of irrespective of which caliber will be used for the specific rifle, what are the min and max ranges and types/sizes of targets you're expecting to shoot at? That should give a good basis for range, while the larger calibers (your winmag and Lapua Mag) are really just adding to the optic and mount must be durable and solidly mounted (e.g. maybe a Spuhr + some rosin when mounting optic).

 

[longshot2000]

Sure it does. Sorry, powerspc, but if you told me that you had a car that could quick-change adjustable suspension from low to ground street racing to to off-road sand and mud to winter snow and ice all wheel drive, might your choice of tires be different?

From a .308 to a .338 Lapua, I am not sure you have one scope that fits all. It is the same issue. That is why some tire manufactures, said, "I give up, here is an All Season Tire. All Season Tires are like buggering the ugly girl in college. At least she puts-out, but you will never remember the evening. Sorry, folks, sometimes rifles and girls just go that way for me. My wife slaps me when I compare how tight my barrels fits to p****, but I am just that way.

You can find the all season tire version of a scope that will work for you, and I get it. There is such a thing as a budget, and I guess that is why you are looking at a single rifle frame that accepts different caliber. I have one or two of those rifles. They end up really never having the rifle swapped out in my safe, but that is just me.

Let's got back to basics. For the .308, you will most likely be shooting 400m to 900m. A good scope for that range is a mid-range scope like a 3x-15x, or somewhere around there. Many great scope companies make one of those. NightForce, Steiner, Bushnell, Leupold and Kahles are top of mind for me.

Now go to the .338. This is actually a monster round. Here, you will start at 800m and go to 1,800m. You really want something that will take you out to 25x on the top-end, and some will say 35x. I only see >25x work well if you don't have the South and East Coast humidity and tree cover, and you don't have the desert Southwest heat mirage, AND you are shooting paper and steel. Otherwise, finding your shot and preparing for your second shot is very hard beyond 25x, which is why you see most military snipers stopping at 25x. You also want a scope and rings / mount that is build well enough that the concussion of the .338 round does not injure the scope of mess-up your zero on the rifle. Scopes like Schmidt & Bender PM-II, Nightforce ATACR, Kahles, Vortex Razor HD Gen2, Tangent Theta, Steiner Military, Hentsold all produce scopes that work great, and I probably forgot a few.

Then you mention the .300 WM. This is a particular favorite of mine. I do not own a .338 Lapua rifle. The .338 is a fine round. But, in recent years, the improvement on the .300 WM, as well as the .375 & .408 ChevTach, have created alot of overlap in targeting in the 1,000m to 1,600m range, and for the ChevTach, and even the .50 BMG, much, much further, but that is a whole story in and of itself. Point here is, you might want to re-think whether you really want to shoot the .338 Lapua. There are economics that make the .300 WM much less expensive to shoot, and as you to up to the .338, the .375, the .408, .416 and .500, you step further and further up an exponentially higher budget for chassis, triggers, barrels, bullets, etc. Again, if you want to shoot in the Extended Long Range, go for it. There is a whole different world of equipment to take you there. I am a Cadexdealer, and you can see where some amazing equipment in that market. Anyway, I diverge, but think about whether you really want a plug and play single platform barrel swap setup.

Now, after all that preaching, let me come down from the pulpit. Everyone of us who are scope nerds, and I am, have deep opinions on scopes that are rooted in fact, bias, personal experience, research of the engineering, and the appeal of design aesthetics, etc. No other part of the long-range rifle has as many strong opinions, as that of the rifle scope.

If you were looking only at the mid-range scopes, which I think are best for the .308 / 6.5 CM rifle, I would very clearly be looking at Nightforce ATACR 4-16x42 FFP, with a reticle that works best for you, or the Steiner 3-15x50 FFP, either in the T5Xi or the M5Xi, depending on your budget. These are my go-to scopes for mid-range. Next would be the new Kahles 3-18x, the Leupold Mark 6 or Mark 5 6-18x scopes and the Hensoldt ZF 3-12x56, which is a very good scope, but a bit of a sleeper in this market segment . Finally, there are a handful of Bushnell Elite Tactical scopes that work well in this focal length that are also deserving of a look-see. the This gives you a great selection of truly remarkable scopes and several different budget levels.

If you are looking only at long-range scopes, I tend to favor the Schmidt& Bender PM-II 5-25x56 and Steiner Military M5Xi 5-25x56 as my go-to scopes for 1,000m + targets, but followed very closely by Nightfore ATACR 5-25x56, Kahles, either in their older model 6-24x56 or their newer, more modern designedr5-25x56, and the Vortex Razor HD Gen2 4.5-27x56.

Now that I have diverged all over the place on scopes. I will attempt to answer the question asked: How do I find a all season tire tire scope that will work for medium to long to extended long range? My pick is the Schmidt and Bender 3-20x, either in the full length tube, or one of my personal favorites, the Ultra Short. The full-length 3-20x50 scopes are a favorite amounts target shooters, and the Ultra Short 3-20x50 scopes are more favored by tactical shooters. You will pay more the the US, but it is an amazing piece of German engineering and design, and will hold its resale value quite nicely. You will never regret buying the Ultra Short, but the full-length tube is still a strong seller.

blog posted here: https://charliescustomclones.com/blogs/news/how-a-choose-a-best-all-around-rifle-scope

Good luck in your search.

 

[koshkin]

It is not so much the caliber that influences the choice of a scope, but rather the intended usage for those calibers. How far will you shoot? Will it be used for hunting (i.e. where you have to carry the whole thing) with one of the barrels that might be a lighter profile? Etc.

In general, the recommendation of the 3-20x50 S&B is a good one. Personally, I really like that scope size for a general purpose bolt gun that leans toward precision. Personally, I use the Tangent Theta TT315M 3-15x50 for that, but the idea is the same.

If this is strictly a precision gun and it already leans toward the heavy side of the equation, then there is little downside to stepping up to a larger scope, like the various 5-25x56 and similar designs.

What is your price range?

ILya

 

[dinmax82]

Dang longshot, long post and no mention of TT?

For a multi-barrel system the TT with tooless zero trumps everything. If budget an issue the Razor easy to mark.

 

[STROP]

Yes, planning for 308, 7-08 and 7RM/7LRM.

March, TT have toolless zero and somewhat limited reticle choice, maybe one suits your applications. Illumination can help with fine reticles.

USO B series has toolless elevation only but reportedly not the full frame image quality if the others.

I'd be TT P series all the way if finances allow, perhaps consider the new reticles when they're revealed. The M model has comparably limited travel and 6mil revolution.

Tool'd zero would probably put me in an S&B classic 5-25 or used NF ATACR/Beast. I like their images better than the 3-20 and other ultra zooms.

 

[powerspc]

I knew I would enjoy every minute I spent on this forum! Great discussion so far!

So…maybe a little background is only fair. I spent 25 years in Law Enforcement and then 10 years working for a large Government Contractor. I am now on my own as an FFL 07 Manufacturer working exclusively with Law Enforcement customers along with some DoD work held over from my Government days.

I am also a Cadex Dealer and an Elcan/Tangent Theta Dealer. The Cadex Kraken is what I’m having currently built and it was a no-brainer (at least I thought) to put a TT525P (price is not a major factor) on it. I plan to use the Cadex as a demo platform not just for the rifle but also for the optics; that’s what started me thinking about all of this.

As far as caliber choices I love the all-season tire analogy as I will need to have a weapon system that appeals across a broad range of customer and end uses. The caliber choice is set at this point and for my audience I’m comfortable with where it’s at (beauty of the Cadex system is I can always add a caliber later if needed).

So full circle; different customers, different needs, different calibers. As I was thinking through all of this today it got me wondering about the optics. Is there a one-size-fits-all for a multi-caliber weapon system as described? As far as what? Think man-sized silhouettes at ranges from 400yds out to 1600yds, caliber dependent.

 

[Steel+Killer]

Sure it does. Sorry, powerspc, but if you told me that you had a car that could quick-change adjustable suspension from low to ground street racing to to off-road sand and mud to winter snow and ice all wheel drive, might your choice of tires be different?

From a .308 to a .338 Lapua, I am not sure you have one scope that fits all. It is the same issue. That is why some tire manufactures, said, "I give up, here is an All Season Tire. All Season Tires are like buggering the ugly girl in college. At least she puts-out, but you will never remember the evening. Sorry, folks, sometimes rifles and girls just go that way for me. My wife slaps me when I compare how tight my barrels fits to p****, but I am just that way.

You can find the all season tire version of a scope that will work for you, and I get it. There is such a thing as a budget, and I guess that is why you are looking at a single rifle frame that accepts different caliber. I have one or two of those rifles. They end up really never having the rifle swapped out in my safe, but that is just me.

Let's got back to basics. For the .308, you will most likely be shooting 400m to 900m. A good scope for that range is a mid-range scope like a 3x-15x, or somewhere around there. Many great scope companies make one of those. NightForce, Steiner, Bushnell, Leupold and Kahles are top of mind for me.

Now go to the .338. This is actually a monster round. Here, you will start at 800m and go to 1,800m. You really want something that will take you out to 25x on the top-end, and some will say 35x. I only see >25x work well if you don't have the South and East Coast humidity and tree cover, and you don't have the desert Southwest heat mirage, AND you are shooting paper and steel. Otherwise, finding your shot and preparing for your second shot is very hard beyond 25x, which is why you see most military snipers stopping at 25x. You also want a scope and rings / mount that is build well enough that the concussion of the .338 round does not injure the scope of mess-up your zero on the rifle. Scopes like Schmidt & Bender PM-II, Nightforce ATACR, Kahles, Vortex Razor HD Gen2, Tangent Theta, Steiner Military, Hentsold all produce scopes that work great, and I probably forgot a few.

Then you mention the .300 WM. This is a particular favorite of mine. I do not own a .338 Lapua rifle. The .338 is a fine round. But, in recent years, the improvement on the .300 WM, as well as the .375 & .408 ChevTach, have created alot of overlap in targeting in the 1,000m to 1,600m range, and for the ChevTach, and even the .50 BMG, much, much further, but that is a whole story in and of itself. Point here is, you might want to re-think whether you really want to shoot the .338 Lapua. There are economics that make the .300 WM much less expensive to shoot, and as you to up to the .338, the .375, the .408, .416 and .500, you step further and further up an exponentially higher budget for chassis, triggers, barrels, bullets, etc. Again, if you want to shoot in the Extended Long Range, go for it. There is a whole different world of equipment to take you there. I am a Cadexdealer, and you can see where some amazing equipment in that market. Anyway, I diverge, but think about whether you really want a plug and play single platform barrel swap setup.

Now, after all that preaching, let me come down from the pulpit. Everyone of us who are scope nerds, and I am, have deep opinions on scopes that are rooted in fact, bias, personal experience, research of the engineering, and the appeal of design aesthetics, etc. No other part of the long-range rifle has as many strong opinions, as that of the rifle scope.

If you were looking only at the mid-range scopes, which I think are best for the .308 / 6.5 CM rifle, I would very clearly be looking at Nightforce ATACR 4-16x42 FFP, with a reticle that works best for you, or the Steiner 3-15x50 FFP, either in the T5Xi or the M5Xi, depending on your budget. These are my go-to scopes for mid-range. Next would be the new Kahles 3-18x, the Leupold Mark 6 or Mark 5 6-18x scopes and the Hensoldt ZF 3-12x56, which is a very good scope, but a bit of a sleeper in this market segment . Finally, there are a handful of Bushnell Elite Tactical scopes that work well in this focal length that are also deserving of a look-see. the This gives you a great selection of truly remarkable scopes and several different budget levels.

If you are looking only at long-range scopes, I tend to favor the Schmidt& Bender PM-II 5-25x56 and Steiner Military M5Xi 5-25x56 as my go-to scopes for 1,000m + targets, but followed very closely by Nightfore ATACR 5-25x56, Kahles, either in their older model 6-24x56 or their newer, more modern designedr5-25x56, and the Vortex Razor HD Gen2 4.5-27x56.

Now that I have diverged all over the place on scopes. I will attempt to answer the question asked: How do I find a all season tire tire scope that will work for medium to long to extended long range? My pick is the Schmidt and Bender 3-20x, either in the full length tube, or one of my personal favorites, the Ultra Short. The full-length 3-20x50 scopes are a favorite amounts target shooters, and the Ultra Short 3-20x50 scopes are more favored by tactical shooters. You will pay more the the US, but it is an amazing piece of German engineering and design, and will hold its resale value quite nicely. You will never regret buying the Ultra Short, but the full-length tube is still a strong seller.

Good luck in your search.

I have to disagree there is no reason why 5-25 or a 4.5-27 or even NF 7-35 couldn't or shouldn't be used for a 308/6.5. How is having higher magnification above 20x+ a drawback shooting a 308/6.5 @ 500-1000yds while you may not always need 20x+ it certainly doesn't hurt and only helps IMO.

 

[Jeffd]

TT for multi caliber hands down!

 

[ZeroMOA]

I bought Nightforce ATACR 7-35 F1 in a Spuhr Mount with a Trijicon rmr red dot angle mounted it on for my multi caliber setup...can take 10 yard shot or a 1760 yard shot effectively, very happy with it....308 to 338 lapua

 

[longshot2000]

I have to disagree there is no reason why 5-25 or a 4.5-27 or even NF 7-35 couldn't or shouldn't be used for a 308/6.5. How is having higher magnification above 20x+ a drawback shooting a 308/6.5 @ 500-1000yds while you may not always need 20x+ it certainly doesn't hurt and only helps IMO.

Every post has different opinions. I don't think we disagree, maybe just a different POV. You can drive a Porsche 911 for a 1,000 mile trip, and no doubt, it will take you there. I just think there are more comfortable vehicles for longer trips, and those more comfortable vehicles are not as good as the Porsche on the windy back roads.

In particular, I agree with your statement about the S&B or Steiner 5-25x. I just think there are scopes that do not have all the weight, length, and bells and whistles that are needed for the 25x, that are very adequately equipped for the 800 yard shot of a .308 cal shot.

I bought Nightforce ATACR 7-35 F1 in a Spuhr Mount with a Trijicon rmr red dot angle mounted it on for my multi caliber setup...can take 10 yard shot or a 1760 yard shot effectively, very happy with it....308 to 338 lapua

... and another perfectly fine answer.

 

[SRPowah]

I have run a Kahles, NF, and S&B on my DT. It really isn't hard to account for the offset with some mental math or have the ballistic calculator give you the corrected answer. If you absolutely must have your turrets zeroed on 0, TT.

I am curious how often people actually reslip their turrets on multi-cal weapon systems. Im sure everyone has a "home" barrel that sits in the gun the most.

 

[Covertnoob5]

I feel I may be able to help a little here.

So I have both a DT and an AXMC in multiple calibers. DT is: 223, 308, 6.5 Creed, 6.5 SAUM and AXMC is: 260 rem, 6.5 Creed, 308, 300WM

I had a gen 2 razor, then a TT525P, and now a NF 7-35. On my DT my 6.5 Creed is my “home barrel” or what I zero on. On my AI my 260 is my “home” barrel. I would say this, it’s easy to forget where you left your 0 on a TT or at least for me. Meaning if you switch barrels a lot, you might have left the 0 for a 308 barrel, take the barrel out for storage or some other extended period of time then forget what caliber that 0 is for so you essentially have to check the 0. This would happen to me when I would shoot my 308 at the range, take out the barrel throw the rifle in the bag without a barrel in it, not shoot for a month or 2 then go back to the range and forget what the last caliber I shot was. You could write it down somewhere, but you better be organized and vigilant in doing so, otherwise your back to square one having the re-zero.
I think the easiest (not fastest) is the gen 2 razor with marks on the inside turret. Get a few different color sharpies and mark the inside turret for each caliber 0 in a different color. That way you have visual representation of what caliber the scope is set to 0 for.

I would however suggest the best method is just have the most used barrel as your home 0 and use your ballistic calculator for every other barrels offset from the home caliber. This is what I do now. Also, I would suggest an ATACR, 7-35, because with the ATACR you can set your zero stop at whatever you want. I have mine 1 mil below 0. Gives me plenty of room to go up or down when I switch barrels or add a new caliber.

As mentioned in a post above, I also have a red dot at a 45 on my spuhr with my 7-35. Works great for a wide range of situations.

I don’t think you can really go wrong though, I think TT is an excellent choice if your good about keeping track of what you last used.

 

[M77]

i run a razor g2 4.5-27 on my Dt srs a1 , i have a 308,6.5 creed and a 300wm.
apart from the usual scope features the g2 razor has it was important for me to have adjust below my Zero, eg the Razor has 0.5 mil below zero.

i have my DT zeroed on my 308 barrel and the poi is the same for the 6.5 creed , the 300winmag on the other hand is 0.5 mil below my zero . so works out perfectly for me

 

[Ledzep]

To an extent. IMO a 3-15x covers most of it. 3-18x if you really think a little more zoom will help you. I've found that from .223 to .260 to 6.5 SAUM to 300wm I end up between 8x and 12x on my variable power scopes universally from 100yd to 1800yd. I've only ever gone over 20x to check the optical quality and see what the scope was capable of. Spotting scopes and binoculars work better for spotting. On the other end, I've found most FFP scopes' reticles uselessly thin below about 5-6x. I know some people love to hover around 20x, though, so I guess figure out what works for you.

For ELR my concern is more internal elevation, not zoom. You can blow the mirage up to 50x, it's not really going to help you. You get more adjustment range with the lower power zoom ranges typically, so there again, points to a 3-15x.

Tool-less re-zero would be a nifty option; the importance of which depends on how often you intend to switch it up. I don't think it's too big a deal to loosen 3 set screws, but if I had to do it several times every outing because I wanted to shoot 3 different calibers, then yeah, it would get old.

 

[Smooth_87]

To an extent. IMO a 3-15x covers most of it. 3-18x if you really think a little more zoom will help you. I've found that from .223 to .260 to 6.5 SAUM to 300wm I end up between 8x and 12x on my variable power scopes universally from 100yd to 1800yd. I've only ever gone over 20x to check the optical quality and see what the scope was capable of. Spotting scopes and binoculars work better for spotting. On the other end, I've found most FFP scopes' reticles uselessly thin below about 5-6x. I know some people love to hover around 20x, though, so I guess figure out what works for you.

For ELR my concern is more internal elevation, not zoom. You can blow the mirage up to 50x, it's not really going to help you. You get more adjustment range with the lower power zoom ranges typically, so there again, points to a 3-15x.

Tool-less re-zero would be a nifty option; the importance of which depends on how often you intend to switch it up. I don't think it's too big a deal to loosen 3 set screws, but if I had to do it several times every outing because I wanted to shoot 3 different calibers, then yeah, it would get old.

I agree with you on the magnification for our requirements for shooting.

 

[Akfire907]

Just got a MK22 deployment kit with single barrel 300nm. Also have CF 300wm and 308 barrel kits. For multiple calibers, I just picked up coyote brown TT525P with gen 3XR & AIF. Will post picks once all setup. Have ZCO527 that I plan to compare with. The tool-less zero will win my heart though, fairly confident.