Advanced Marksmanship muscles and position

[imlek]

I'm new and would appreciate some clarification.

When people talk about shooting in the 1/2 min or better, I assume they are using a rear bag.
If so, you have to apply muscular tension with your non shooting hand to hold your point of aim. Likewise, more than once shooters have posted that pulling the rifle hard into their shoulder with their firing hand has given them smaller groups.

This seems to me to be conflicting with what I have understood to be part of the shooting fundamentals posted on this site, namely, bone on bone, no muscular tension so as to maintain NPA.

Thank you and have a nice day.

 

[ponchair]

Re: muscles and position

I'm sure one of the seasoned veterans will chime in, but I will give it a try.

A lot of good shooters don't need a rear bag to shoot 1/2 minute groups. A shooter should be comfortable not shooting with a rear bag, as it is a luxury per say. Just another tool that helps maintain accuracy/comfort.

In prone, a shooter will have to put pressure on the butt of the rifle, giving it just enough force to put pressure on the bipod, also known as loading the bipod. So you aren't pressing the rifle into your shoulder, you are pressing your shoulder into the rifle.

Muscular tension can be your enemy, you want to be comfortable pushing forward on the rifle. Not straining.

 

[DamnYuppie]

Re: muscles and position

Being very new this is an issue I have been debating myself. I mostly practice at home dry firing. On the carpet the bi-pod, which is a Harris, slips forward if I really load up on it. Even if I only moderately load up on the bi-pod it will slide forward. I have caught myself compensating by pulling the rifle back into my right shoulder with my firing hand. This seems to be somewhat awkward and not ideal from what I am reading.

To account for this I have started practicing where there is a cleft in the carpet where it ends and hardwood floors begin. If I place the bi-pod feet in this cleft I can really load up on it and it will not slide so I don't have to grip the rifle hard. I try not to really load up on it as I am pretty sure in the real world I will not have this handy indentation, mores the pity. Yet it begs the question, at least to me, should I be able to load up on the rifle while it is on carpet without it moving forward? Out in the wild how do you keep the bi-pod from slipping forward?


Brian

 

[Lindy]

Re: muscles and position

All you are really trying to do is to take the slack out of the bipod and mount. Then snug the rifle up into the pocket. That limits the fore/aft movement of the rifle under recoil, which is all you are trying to do.

If the rifle moves laterally under recoil, change the angle of your body with respect to the bore until it doesn't. That may mean that you body is angled toward your shooting side a bit. But you don't have to guess - change the angle until it doesn't move laterally.

I found that actually shooting off a hard surface helped me to find-tune that angle.

 

[edward r homeyer]

Re: muscles and position

I have found that some rifles like a heavy preload on the bipod and some like a light or moderate preload. I prefer a rear bag when I shoot, but I try to stay relaxed as much as possible. I shoot my rifles the same as I shoot a machine gun. With the rifle in a straight line from my shoulder to my ass cheek, legs spread wide, heels on the ground, arms in about a 90 degree angle from my body. Once you find what works for you make it part of your mental checklist.

 

[aggiesig]

Re: muscles and position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ninja Pirtle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In prone, a shooter will have to put pressure on the butt of the rifle, giving it just enough force to put pressure on the bipod, also known as loading the bipod. So you aren't pressing the rifle into your shoulder, you are pressing your shoulder into the rifle.
</div></div>

An extension on this concept that deals with the execution of applying this pressure is to raise your body up on your elbows and bring your torso forward, loading the bipod, then lowering yourself back down into a relaxed position, I find with my legs spread out at a pretty good angle, the surface tension of my torso/legs against the ground holds the bipod in a "loaded" position. This way there is little or no muscle tension to apply force to the bipod (If your doing it right you hold forward tension on the rifle while leaving your whole body relaxed). From shot to shot you should try to move as little as possible and maintain the same amount of forward loading force. It's hard to do while trying to get straight on the rifle. Practice this at home at first, or else everyone at the range will think you are humping the ground.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: muscles and position

I guess the term holding hard can be confusing. It doesnt mean using alot of muscle to force the weapon into postion and then hold it there for the string of fire.

I use a rather flexible rear bag compared to most F-TR shooters. My non firing hand shapes the bag then it just a spacer, not fighting to keep the rear bag inplace. A slight rebuild with every shot but I do my best to avoid the temptation of squeezing the bag into position and holding it there with muscle power.

Being a sandbag behind the rifle, compared to bracing for the recoil helps me alot. I barely use any muscle to preload my bipod and just snug the rifle against me, most likely you could rip the weapon out from under me during trigger squeeze. Its a 308 so recoil is mild.

For me the least amount of muscle you use the better, build your position and then relax.

Good luck

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: muscles and position

Just an observation, whenever a rear bag is introduced to a prone supported position, it and the front rest will determine the height of the position, rather than the shooter's head determining the height of the position, when the butt stock is brought to the head, as it should be, rather than the head going to the stock. What happens here is a very low gun position which can be very difficult. That's to say, it may be difficult for the shooter to get an ideal stockweld from such a position. Without consistency in stockweld, all sorts of shooting errors can manifest themselves. One solution is to learn how to build a steady prone position without a rear support.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: muscles and position

Both my front rest, the bipod, and rear rest, a flexible sock, are adjustable. No support, sling support, or bag support all benefit from proper training in the method employed.

My cheat for cheekweld is tapping the bill of my hat to the rear scope cover as I settle on target. A shooters version of dress right dress I guess.

What I like is after a 3x20 plus 2 600yd match I am up laughing and blaming wind for that 8 I shot. The slingers are all beat down and soaked in sweat with a rather blank look on their face as they peel out of their leather gear and multiple sweat shirts.

Bipod and rear bag shooting is sooooo very comfortable, and with proper techique very accurate and consistent. That the NRA High Lords had to change the Hipower targets for F-Class to make the scores more than a straight X count tells me something about how accurate and consistent the Bipod/rear bag system can be.

But like anything you have to have some good training and proper practise to make it work.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: muscles and position

Speaking of sweat and leather, there's no doubt shooting good scores at LR with an AR based Service Rifle is very difficult, even for those who indeed know how to do it. As it appears, it's just too much work for most folks to have any interest in it. But, for those who are up to the challenge, the thrill of hitting where aimed at 1000 yards with just irons and sling is unsurpassed.

 

[Starbelly]

Re: muscles and position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ninja Pirtle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure one of the seasoned veterans will chime in, but I will give it a try.

A lot of good shooters don't need a rear bag to shoot 1/2 minute groups. A shooter should be comfortable not shooting with a rear bag, as it is a luxury per say. Just another tool that helps maintain accuracy/comfort.

In prone, a shooter will have to put pressure on the butt of the rifle, giving it just enough force to put pressure on the bipod, also known as loading the bipod. So you aren't pressing the rifle into your shoulder, you are pressing your shoulder into the rifle.

Muscular tension can be your enemy, you want to be comfortable pushing forward on the rifle. Not straining. </div></div>

Um... that girl in your sig is giving me some muscular tension...

 

[ponchair]

Re: muscles and position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jammyband</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ninja Pirtle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure one of the seasoned veterans will chime in, but I will give it a try.

A lot of good shooters don't need a rear bag to shoot 1/2 minute groups. A shooter should be comfortable not shooting with a rear bag, as it is a luxury per say. Just another tool that helps maintain accuracy/comfort.

In prone, a shooter will have to put pressure on the butt of the rifle, giving it just enough force to put pressure on the bipod, also known as loading the bipod. So you aren't pressing the rifle into your shoulder, you are pressing your shoulder into the rifle.

Muscular tension can be your enemy, you want to be comfortable pushing forward on the rifle. Not straining. </div></div>

Um... that girl in your sig is giving me some muscular tension... </div></div>

Hahaha, thanks for the info.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: muscles and position

Sterling-
Agreed, when I first started F-Class the firing line was dominated by sweating slingers of an impressive variety. These days they struggle to make more than one class. Just as I was beginning to get a handle on service rifle, match rifle, palma, hipower they seem to have faded away.

Well not faded as much as come to the dark side called F-Class! I was giving Tommy from Tiger Valley area some stuff over converting to F-Open, but the man has been amazing in his sling with that ancient rifle of his.

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I admire slingers a great deal, but am not ever going to be that sincere!

 

[imlek]

Re: muscles and position

Applying your suggestions, have practiced dry firing by slightly loading the bipod with my torso. Have placed Nightforce lens caps under the feet of the Harris bipod to prevent it from skidding along the floor. Instead of a rear sock, I placed my fist underneath the butstock and found that to be a much more relaxed position than squeezing the sock. I was able to completely relax my cheek/head on the stock. My firing hand was also relaxed to just focus on trigger pull rather than any pulling into the shoulder.

It is a rather low postion though, forcing some eye strain looking up. Would have to check how it works on the range.
Wonder if would be able to reload without raising the elbow of my firing arm.

Thank you and would appreciate any comments on the above.

 

[armymedic.2]

Re: muscles and position

the fist under the rifle is a great solid rear support, the problem is just as you described though........very low position.


If your bipod is loading up ok for you, extend the legs until your head position is comfortable and repeatable. Low bipods does not necessarily mean more acurate, even if they feel more stable for you.

I bet you will be amazed at how well the rifle stays in the pocket without any type of rear spport when properly loaded. Then adding in the rear bag is like icing on the cake

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: muscles and position

Fatigue will undermine the steadiness of your position. That's why a marksmanship coach will advise an NPA that allows complete relaxation. Any position which requires muscular effort to maintain NPA is violating the first requirement of an NPA, it's not Natural.

Shoulder pressure is a part of recoil management, and not of NPA. As such, it is also contradictory to the basic principles of NPA.

But that makes it no less necessary.

Yes, there is a paradox.

Its resolution will depend at least in part on your priorities.

For a single shot, fatigue is less of a factor. For repeated shots, it's more of a factor.

Understand that often, there will be no way to reconcile the conflict; and you will need to make choices.

Practice is what makes those choices effective.

Also, this is some of what makes shooting a physical sport. Physical conditioning will be necessary to overcome fatigue.

Understanding the principles is not enough. If you're not in good physical condition, you are not shooting at your full potential. This is one of my own key challenges. Maintaining good physical condition is a significant issue for me.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: muscles and position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: imlek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Applying your suggestions, have practiced dry firing by slightly loading the bipod with my torso. Have placed Nightforce lens caps under the feet of the Harris bipod to prevent it from skidding along the floor. Instead of a rear sock, I placed my fist underneath the butstock and found that to be a much more relaxed position than squeezing the sock. I was able to completely relax my cheek/head on the stock. My firing hand was also relaxed to just focus on trigger pull rather than any pulling into the shoulder.

It is a rather low postion though, forcing some eye strain looking up. Would have to check how it works on the range.
Wonder if would be able to reload without raising the elbow of my firing arm.

Thank you and would appreciate any comments on the above.</div></div>

Eye strain is how you describe the eyeball/eyepiece relationship. This relationship can perfected with an adjustable comb and adjustable butt. The lower the position the higher the butt. What you are looking for is muscular relaxation.

 

[frankythefly]

Re: muscles and position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ninja Pirtle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure one of the seasoned veterans will chime in, but I will give it a try.

A lot of good shooters don't need a rear bag to shoot 1/2 minute groups. A shooter should be comfortable not shooting with a rear bag, as it is a luxury per say. Just another tool that helps maintain accuracy/comfort.

In prone, a shooter will have to put pressure on the butt of the rifle, giving it just enough force to put pressure on the bipod, also known as loading the bipod. So you aren't pressing the rifle into your shoulder, you are pressing your shoulder into the rifle.

Muscular tension can be your enemy, you want to be comfortable pushing forward on the rifle. Not straining. </div></div>

Tried this today and it made a world of difference. I find shooting this method worked better for me with the Sako TRG than it did with my Remington/harris setup. I have the TRG Bipod and I have no fear about loading it this thing is not going to break. I shot my first 5 shot group approx .451 MOA, using the above method. My Remington is a solid 1/4 moa shooter but the ergonomics or something didn't feel right and I could only squeeze a 5 shot group at 3/4 moa. Needless to say I am liking the Sako TRG more and more each time I shoot it.

 

[imlek]

Re: muscles and position

Well out on the range this weekend was still searching for that elusive concept known as the NPA. Was in a very low position with fist as rear rest. So focused on no muscle tension that I preloaded the bipod slightly, with my firing hand just serving basically to touch the trigger - no rear pull.
Result - the stock was not firmly into my shoulder, recoiling too far backwards, with barrel ending up high. Shooting prone in the snow. The jacket I wore seemed spongy, allowing for a a gap between the butt and the shoulder.The weather worsened so I want to come back and try pulling slighly back into the shoulder and wearing less/different clothes. BTW, any suggestions on clothes and butt to shoulder relationship? It seems to me that in winter clothes just preloading the bipod slighlty with no pull rearwards with the firing hand leaves a slight gap between the butt and the shoulder pocket.

 

[kentactic]

Re: muscles and position

i shoot sub .5 MOA pretty consistantly... i shoot prone and with no rear bag. i just support the butt of the stock with my off hand aswell as pull the rifle into my shoulder with it. i want it to feel relatively firm against my shoulder but all of that is done with a little rearward lean so once i have all that done i lean my weight back into the bipod.

and im a newbie at this stuff if that helps at all with moral. pretty easily acheived. dont over think it. just do the few steps and continue to do them and always exactly the same and youll be fine. alot of guys like to make it sound like they are becoming one with the earth and that time stops when they go prone. screw all that. relax and squeeze. its not rocket science.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: muscles and position

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: imlek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well out on the range this weekend was still searching for that elusive concept known as the NPA. Was in a very low position with fist as rear rest. So focused on no muscle tension that I preloaded the bipod slightly, with my firing hand just serving basically to touch the trigger - no rear pull.
Result - the stock was not firmly into my shoulder, recoiling too far backwards, with barrel ending up high. Shooting prone in the snow. The jacket I wore seemed spongy, allowing for a a gap between the butt and the shoulder.The weather worsened so I want to come back and try pulling slighly back into the shoulder and wearing less/different clothes. BTW, any suggestions on clothes and butt to shoulder relationship? It seems to me that in winter clothes just preloading the bipod slighlty with no pull rearwards with the firing hand leaves a slight gap between the butt and the shoulder pocket.</div></div>

Start with an understanding for what NPA is: where the gun is naturally pointing when the shooter shoulders it. From this direction the shooter adjusts (moves) the whole body to get a desired relationship between the target and sight, also known as a hold.

When possible, the gun should be shouldered without any consideration for the target. This helps to prevent the shooter from unconsciously steering the gun to the target with the non-firing hand as the position is built, which, if not recognized, will hinder proper NPA adjustment.

My mental management goes something like this: sight alignment, adjustment of NPA, focus on front sight, trigger-control, and follow-through. Don't take short cuts. Building the position properly assures the best results.

 

[imlek]

Re: muscles and position

Kentactic, Sterling and all, thank you for all your input. I think I understand what I have to do now.

Cheers.

 

[hognuts]

Re: muscles and position

Good information, I also have an issue trying to "load up" my harris bipod, it just wants to slide, I have been toying with the idea of putting some sort of "anchor" on the front of my shooting mat to place the bipod legs into and then my body weight will hold the mat in position allowing to load the bipod without the rifle being able to slide out of position, not saying that will replace the need to train without it for shooting matches where you cant drag your mat with you, but I am interested in the results if I can lock the front of the rifle into the mat. I will post results after I try it out, I have some rings that I am going to secure to the front of my mat and place my bipod legs into.

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: muscles and position

I have the CrossTac Predator shooting mat and it has a lip up front that is designed for loading the bipod. It's a bit pricey but a good mat. I wish it was a role up model but it's not.