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My 6.5 grendel / semi auto reloading series.
- Thread starter elfster1234
- Start date
nice series. watched most of them. only thing i would say is to try out the 8028xbr with the ELD's or even get some SST's.
im working with my 18" faxon and using the SST's with 8028xbr but yet to find a good node.
im working with my 18" faxon and using the SST's with 8028xbr but yet to find a good node.
Liked the series a lot. Goes into excellent depth.
I also ended up buying the World's Finest Case Trimmer II as a result, with inserts for 6.5G, 260 Rem, and 308 Win.
Bravo.
I'll be trying the Speer 120gr Gold Dot with 8208XBR, TAC, and W748, according to Speer loading data.
Greg
I also ended up buying the World's Finest Case Trimmer II as a result, with inserts for 6.5G, 260 Rem, and 308 Win.
Bravo.
I'll be trying the Speer 120gr Gold Dot with 8208XBR, TAC, and W748, according to Speer loading data.
Greg
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i was going to want to try the gold dots eventually or even the fusions all tho the fusions are only 140gr. could maybe try a subsonic load with them?!?
My research suggests that the Gold Dots and Fusions are either the same bullet, or very close to identical.
I have the 120 SGD's for the Grendel, and the 140 SGD's for my 260, and maybe for the Grendel. Speer data for the 140's only lists the 140 Hot-Cor (not the SGD); but lists the same max charge of 8208XBR as max for both the 120SGD and 140 Hot-Cor.
My experience with the 6.5G AR strongly suggests avoiding Redline loads. My extractor failed at .2gr above listed max with the 24" AR barrel. It was a pretty expensive fix using the JP Improved 6.5G Extractor.
It also suggests the Gold Dot may have a tendency to produce higher pressures at the gas port, although the brass/primers look benign. I suspect that's especially true with the 24" barrel (longer dwell time). If you see excessive soot on the shoulders, back off immediately; it suggests the case is getting extracted while the chamber pressures is too high.
IMHO, the Grendel is a good cartridge for the AR, but needs to be loaded more gently for the AR than for a bolt gun. I also think that, counter-intuitively, it probably doesn't like a combination of longer AR Barrels and slower powders (because of the longer dwell times of the longer barrel).
I really want to get a Grendel bolt gun so I can see if better performance could be reached without a gas system. I have a Savage 10FCM Scout 7.62x39. It may be a candidate for a 6.5G barrel; particularly since it has the proper bolt face diameter.
I had originally purchased it because I wanted to swap out the barrel for a PPC; but the danged thing is so accurate with the 7.62x39 that I dropped that plan right out of the gate.
If things don't progress well (i.e. excessively sooted case shoulders) with the 24" AR barrel, I may reserve it for 90gr TNT bullets. My other Grendel is identical, except for a 20" barrel, and that may turn out to be better suited for the 120's.
I don't do subsonics; so I can't be of help there.
Greg
I have the 120 SGD's for the Grendel, and the 140 SGD's for my 260, and maybe for the Grendel. Speer data for the 140's only lists the 140 Hot-Cor (not the SGD); but lists the same max charge of 8208XBR as max for both the 120SGD and 140 Hot-Cor.
My experience with the 6.5G AR strongly suggests avoiding Redline loads. My extractor failed at .2gr above listed max with the 24" AR barrel. It was a pretty expensive fix using the JP Improved 6.5G Extractor.
It also suggests the Gold Dot may have a tendency to produce higher pressures at the gas port, although the brass/primers look benign. I suspect that's especially true with the 24" barrel (longer dwell time). If you see excessive soot on the shoulders, back off immediately; it suggests the case is getting extracted while the chamber pressures is too high.
IMHO, the Grendel is a good cartridge for the AR, but needs to be loaded more gently for the AR than for a bolt gun. I also think that, counter-intuitively, it probably doesn't like a combination of longer AR Barrels and slower powders (because of the longer dwell times of the longer barrel).
I really want to get a Grendel bolt gun so I can see if better performance could be reached without a gas system. I have a Savage 10FCM Scout 7.62x39. It may be a candidate for a 6.5G barrel; particularly since it has the proper bolt face diameter.
I had originally purchased it because I wanted to swap out the barrel for a PPC; but the danged thing is so accurate with the 7.62x39 that I dropped that plan right out of the gate.
If things don't progress well (i.e. excessively sooted case shoulders) with the 24" AR barrel, I may reserve it for 90gr TNT bullets. My other Grendel is identical, except for a 20" barrel, and that may turn out to be better suited for the 120's.
I don't do subsonics; so I can't be of help there.
Greg
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Would be interested, as a matter of further refinement, to see if playing around with seating depth would eliminate the occasional fliers seen in series. Would also suggest working with AR Comp in the 120-123gr range, as my results in Grendel’s from 18-24” would indicate you’ll find some optimum accuracy in the 26.5-27.5 range, without too much compression affecting net COAL after seating. Maybe not top velocity, but accuracy and low ES/SD almost certain. Great work on your site, glad to see your recovery appears complete. F cancer...certain!
I don't bother with seating depth experimentation, and simply set the COAL to whatever the manual lists; subject to chambering confirmation.
My load development begins with as many arbitrary decisions as possible (likeliest powder, primer selection, COAL, for instance).
I do not want to make any ammunition that won't fit in a magazine, or has ogive restrictions at magazine length (as is shown in the videos, nice catch, Elfster).
Finding perfection can grow like Topsy, and too soon become an unreasonable imposition on bore life.
Elsewise; the Bastard III looks very interesting, but at its list price may be more brake than I actually need. The only rifle I'd consider for the brake is my PA-10. I have a Jerry Michulek brake to try first; and unless there's too much Hop, that's where I'd be inclined to stop.
I don't consider a brake to be an actual accuracy tool because it doesn't even begin to work before the bullet's already heading downrange. It's real value is in how quickly it permits a follow-up.
Greg
My load development begins with as many arbitrary decisions as possible (likeliest powder, primer selection, COAL, for instance).
I do not want to make any ammunition that won't fit in a magazine, or has ogive restrictions at magazine length (as is shown in the videos, nice catch, Elfster).
Finding perfection can grow like Topsy, and too soon become an unreasonable imposition on bore life.
Elsewise; the Bastard III looks very interesting, but at its list price may be more brake than I actually need. The only rifle I'd consider for the brake is my PA-10. I have a Jerry Michulek brake to try first; and unless there's too much Hop, that's where I'd be inclined to stop.
I don't consider a brake to be an actual accuracy tool because it doesn't even begin to work before the bullet's already heading downrange. It's real value is in how quickly it permits a follow-up.
Greg
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When I dove into building/buying and handloading for the 6.5 Grendel, I looked for the limits and found some of them.
The weakest link appears to be the the consequence of opening up the AR-15 bolt face to accept the 6.5G's wide cartridge base diameter The extractor hook broke off clean the moment my load increment crept above published max. This was the first shot following a test of ten of the new Frontier 123gr 6.5 Grendel loads. Pressure signs on those cases showed evidence of above moderate pressure, especially on the highly flattened primers.
The 24" barrel's additional 4" of bore pressure dwell beyond the gas port amplified the pressure load that the extractor had to cope with by maintaining case expansion until the extraction process had begun. It could turn out that, like the other 6.5's, AR gas tube length should be extended by several inches for 6.5G barrels significantly beyond 20" in length.
An apparent early warning of this medley of issues would be excess sooting of the case wall and shoulder, created as the case extracts while still under pressure.
I finally replaced my broken extractor yesterday with the better J.P. Enterprises Improved Grendel Extractor. That would be something I would install immediately upon acquiring any Grendel on arrival if it has a barrel length beyond 20". I would also urge that attempts to develop handloads beyond Max Published Charge Weights be abandoned with long barrel AR-15's.
One strategy I'm considering is reserving the 24" barrel for the SpeerHDY 95gr TNT V-Max , and confining heavier loads (Speer 120gr Gold Dot) to the 20" barrel.
Charges for the V-Max might favor faster powders, in the hope of staving off the worst of the pressure dwell (but this is 'iffy logic').
This week, my 'fleet' of AR's were converted to use stocks that are longer to fit my taller frame, and exhibit tactical style butt hooks (Choate E-2), including the pair of Grendels . The pair of Stag Model 6 Super Varminters have A2 stocks, now upgraded with EGW Bag Riders. Since the grand majority of my shooting is now limited to bench work, bag riders are now the norm with five of my AR's, including the 20" PA-10 308, which also has a new J.P. Enterprises Silent Captured 308 Buffer. It functioned fine with the PSA Classic 6-Position Collapsible stock, but was not ideal for the use of a rear bag. When I added the E2 stock, I swapped out the basic buffer system for the A2 Tube and upgraded to the J.P. Buffer to accommodate that change in a more appropriate manner.
The extractor failure mandated a complete reset on the 6.5 Grendel load development process. The arrival of the deposit from Uncle Sugar enabled the purchase of these upgrades and others (Luth AR MBA-5 Stock for the M4gery, and four Chubby Grips for the PSA Lowers, etc.).
These upgrades are now completed in time for the passing of the hiatus that accompanies the COVID-19 Lockdown.
In my Zipcode, the virus cases have remained zero since the dim memory of the Pandemic's beginning. No testing has been performed. However, some serious flu-like cases occurred locally in late January and early February, and when antibody testing arrives, the infection number could change by quite a bit.
My Brother (83), living in N. White Plains NY, 16 mi from the virus ground zero of New Rochelle in Westchester County, died on a ventilator in late January. The virus is real; it ain't over, and there's probably a lot more to come in the next year, at least. He's probably a very early victim.
Greg
The weakest link appears to be the the consequence of opening up the AR-15 bolt face to accept the 6.5G's wide cartridge base diameter The extractor hook broke off clean the moment my load increment crept above published max. This was the first shot following a test of ten of the new Frontier 123gr 6.5 Grendel loads. Pressure signs on those cases showed evidence of above moderate pressure, especially on the highly flattened primers.
The 24" barrel's additional 4" of bore pressure dwell beyond the gas port amplified the pressure load that the extractor had to cope with by maintaining case expansion until the extraction process had begun. It could turn out that, like the other 6.5's, AR gas tube length should be extended by several inches for 6.5G barrels significantly beyond 20" in length.
An apparent early warning of this medley of issues would be excess sooting of the case wall and shoulder, created as the case extracts while still under pressure.
I finally replaced my broken extractor yesterday with the better J.P. Enterprises Improved Grendel Extractor. That would be something I would install immediately upon acquiring any Grendel on arrival if it has a barrel length beyond 20". I would also urge that attempts to develop handloads beyond Max Published Charge Weights be abandoned with long barrel AR-15's.
One strategy I'm considering is reserving the 24" barrel for the Speer
Charges for the V-Max might favor faster powders, in the hope of staving off the worst of the pressure dwell (but this is 'iffy logic').
This week, my 'fleet' of AR's were converted to use stocks that are longer to fit my taller frame, and exhibit tactical style butt hooks (Choate E-2), including the pair of Grendels . The pair of Stag Model 6 Super Varminters have A2 stocks, now upgraded with EGW Bag Riders. Since the grand majority of my shooting is now limited to bench work, bag riders are now the norm with five of my AR's, including the 20" PA-10 308, which also has a new J.P. Enterprises Silent Captured 308 Buffer. It functioned fine with the PSA Classic 6-Position Collapsible stock, but was not ideal for the use of a rear bag. When I added the E2 stock, I swapped out the basic buffer system for the A2 Tube and upgraded to the J.P. Buffer to accommodate that change in a more appropriate manner.
The extractor failure mandated a complete reset on the 6.5 Grendel load development process. The arrival of the deposit from Uncle Sugar enabled the purchase of these upgrades and others (Luth AR MBA-5 Stock for the M4gery, and four Chubby Grips for the PSA Lowers, etc.).
These upgrades are now completed in time for the passing of the hiatus that accompanies the COVID-19 Lockdown.
In my Zipcode, the virus cases have remained zero since the dim memory of the Pandemic's beginning. No testing has been performed. However, some serious flu-like cases occurred locally in late January and early February, and when antibody testing arrives, the infection number could change by quite a bit.
My Brother (83), living in N. White Plains NY, 16 mi from the virus ground zero of New Rochelle in Westchester County, died on a ventilator in late January. The virus is real; it ain't over, and there's probably a lot more to come in the next year, at least. He's probably a very early victim.
Greg
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Also sorry to hear about your brother. We shall have a drink one day in his honor!
Had some fun over the weekend with the Grendel. Finished up my 90 gr Varmageddon testing. Settled in on 30.4 gr of IMR 8208. Avg 5 shot group was 2864 fps. 1.5 mils at 330 yards.
Still can't decide between the 129 ABLR or the 120 Gold Dot. They both shot superb out to 558 yards. Great problem to have!
Had some fun over the weekend with the Grendel. Finished up my 90 gr Varmageddon testing. Settled in on 30.4 gr of IMR 8208. Avg 5 shot group was 2864 fps. 1.5 mils at 330 yards.
Still can't decide between the 129 ABLR or the 120 Gold Dot. They both shot superb out to 558 yards. Great problem to have!
Will investigate 8208 loads similar to yours, but for the 95gr TNT; and I'm sticking with redeveloping the load for the 120 Gold Dot in the 20" only.
Might as well have that drink today!
Greg
Might as well have that drink today!
Greg
Quick update on the case trimmer. I switched my order at the last minute from the trimmer I to the trimmer II, then realized when it arrived that I had omitted asking for the 6.5G trimmer chamber, and then realized that this chamber is not (yet?) an option from the maker. So I then went ahead and ordered the trimmer I with the 6.5G trimmer option.
Looks like a good set of products, and I have really needed a trimmer for a long, long time.
Greg
Looks like a good set of products, and I have really needed a trimmer for a long, long time.
Greg
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Edited to add: I was wrong. That's 1.4gr above Speer's Manual Max Load.
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