Rifle Scopes my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

[Ring]

he needs a 20x or better.. matching moa/moa or mil/mil. i dont see i dont see that the mk4 even offers this.

from what i have have found,



http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-5-20x50-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P50662.aspx

http://swfa.com/IOR-6-24x56-Tactical-35mm-Rifle-Scope-P47553.aspx

http://swfa.com/Vortex-6-24x50-Viper-PST-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P44564.aspx

http://swfa.com/Bushnell-6-24x50-Elite-Tactical-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P48267.aspx

http://swfa.com/Falcon-Menace-5-25x50-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P49980.aspx



no MK4 has the features of the scopes above...
the glass in the SWFA and IOR are MUCH better then the MK4
the glass in the PST would be equal to the mk4

the others im not sure but im sure its close

all the above have better reticles then the mk4




input?

 

[jeo556]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

If your friend doesn't mind a standard Mil-dot reticle Midway USA has the Bushnell 4200 scopes you named above for a GREAT price. Maybe not quite a MK4 but a better value no doubt.

 

[remau308]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

I would not say the IOR or SWFA has MUCH better glass, or even better glass at all, and my PST didn't compare to the glass my 8.5-25 ER/T had. Although, the PST was very much worth the lower price paid. I would definitely put the Mark 4 on par with the IOR, and above the PST. Also, the TMR reticle is really nice with small 0.5mil hashes and larger 1mil hashes. Have you looked at the Mark 4's with matching mil TMR reticle and mil M5 knobs? They are very nice, and on par with the IOR (don't know about the SWFA), and better than the PST, Bushnell, and Falcon...just my opinion though, but I don't think the Bushnell or Falcon should be in the same list as the PST, IOR, and this particular SWFA.

 

[matchking]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
no MK4 has the features of the scopes above...
the glass in the SWFA and IOR are MUCH better then the MK4
the glass in the PST would be equal to the mk4

the others im not sure but im sure its close

all the above have better reticles then the mk4




input?
</div></div>
I would give some imput, but after reading the statement you made, I think it would be a waste of time. It sounds like you have done exstensive side-by-side testing and comparisons. Just provide your friend with your results and let him make his own decisions.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

There are mil-mil Mark 4s.

The new Mark 4 M5s are said to have better glass.

"Better" is qualitative. You should say you prefer other reticles, but you can't suggest it "better" per se.

Mark 4s have their own advantages as well.

Why stop at these pet-brands? Why not include NF? Zeiss? S&B?

 

[Ring]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

he has a NF now... hes selling it
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=23&t=890891

he needs to keep the new scope to close in price to the old.

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would give some imput, but after reading the statement you made, I think it would be a waste of time. It sounds like you have done exstensive side-by-side testing and comparisons. Just provide your friend with your results and let him make his own decisions.</div></div>

i'd like to see proof of extensive side by side testing. the OP doesn't like leupolds (that's pretty obvious), but what do the other scopes bring to the table that a leupold mark 4 doesn't?

the only thing that stands out to me is that Leupold doesn't offer an FFP illuminated reticle (but neither does the SS).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
the others im not sure but im sure its close

all the above have better reticles then the mk4

</div></div>

i haven't looked through the new SS 5-20x50 so i can't comment on it, but i can tell you that the IOR is the only scope that compares to a mark 4.

for the money, the vortex is the best value of the scopes you've listed, but it's not in the same league as leupold or IOR.

i've never been impressed with falcons or bushnells (and i've owned several of both). i've never been disappointed, but they are what they are: entry level "tactical" scopes.

inferior reticle? is the TMR inferior to all the other reticles because it only has 5 mils in each direction or because they don't put numbers along the mil marks?

you're making it seem like your friends about to make a terrible decision and he's not.

if he were going to drop a thousand dollars on the top of the line countersniper, you probably should get involved, but he's looking at an excellent scope from a very reputable company.

and if you'd like some input, please tell us why he needs 20x and matching knobs/reticle

 

[matchking]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i'd like to see proof of extensive side by side testing. the OP doesn't like leupolds (that's pretty obvious), but what do the other scopes bring to the table that a leupold mark 4 doesn't?
</div></div>
I actually thought he was talking out of his ass, with no first hand knowledge on the subject. My sarcasm failed!

 

[lazy21]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

markIV

I would rather open sights

 

[Opticsspecialist]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

i'd do the 6-24 pst
http://www.sportoptics.com/VortexPST-624F1-M.aspx

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I actually thought he was talking out of his ass, with no first hand knowledge on the subject. My sarcasm failed!</div></div>

we need an official sarcasm font, like italicized brown

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

Leupold MK4's are garbage. I would tell him to get something made in Japan or the Phillipines.

 

[Ring]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

1st.. i dont dislike lupys.. i just think, for the cash, you can get more for your money.

i have used a 20x mk4 with BORS last month for a week on a SASS


the Leupold Mark 4 ER/T 8.5-25x50mm Extended Range/Tactical M5 FFp is 1750$

he can get 2 PST's for that, and that would be handy since he wants to build a 1500y 6.5 gun

we need 20+x because we shoot groundhogs out to 1/2 mile and less then 20x is hard to make out a target the size of a football at 800 yards


he has a 22x NF now... he has lost interest in it

does he need a illuminated reticle?.. no not at all

does he need a FFP and matching turrets to reticle? no, but VARY handy for fast corrections in the shooting we do.

 

[Ragnarok]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

i recently got my self a leupold mk 4, 6,5-20x50, and has nothing wrong to say about that scope, optics is clear and crisp, compared it to night force 5,5-22x56 and a schmith & bender pm 2 5-25x56, and side by side from nightforce i could personally not se any diffrence, in the schmit you could se alittle bit more resoulution, and brightness, but not so much it it worth almost 3 times as much.

and i would not compare it to a bushnell scope, i personally think that leupold mark 4 is a little bit more rugged built as well.

But i did not get the advantage of zero stop, and high speed, like the nightforce and s&b. i bought my scope for 1195 us dollars.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

If your buddy wants high magnification tell him to wait until the new IOR 12-52x56 is released.

 

[BCP]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

I would buy a PST 6-24 for 900. I've heard nothing but good about it on this and other forums.

 

[lightwind]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

I have both the Leupold Mark 4 4.5-14X50 M1 illum and a Vortex Viper PST 6-24X50. For me the Vortex is the easier scope to get behind (even at its higher power) and when on the same magnification I can make out more detail with the PST. Both are good scopes and I won't be getting rid of either of them, but if I had mounted the PST first, I would probably not have gotten the Leupold. The two are close, the Vortex gives me a little more resolution (using resolution test bars at 100m) at the same power and they cost less. Maybe when Leupold releases their "6" line the tides will turn.

 

[BaileyMoto]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

Not much beats the Leupold for the price...with a military discount.

The ER/T's come in traditional mil dot or TMR with M5 turrets (.1 mil) and FFP.

 

[BCP]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It sounds like you have done exstensive side-by-side testing and comparisons.</div></div>

I have.

Bushnell 3-12FFP
Bushnell 6-24FFP
IOR 3-18FFP
Leupold 6.5-20mk4
Leupold 10X M3 (old style)
Leupold 3.5-10 Vari-X M3
Leupold 4.5-14 Vari-x 3 (covered target knobs, football mildot)
Nightforce 5.5-22 w/new knobs

Generally speaking the Leupolds had problems that the others didn't, mostly due to canted reticles and knobs that didn't quite track.

If you want me to post up my testing procedure I will, it wasn't super-intensive but I did spend a lot of time and go out of my way to get the opinions of other shooters.

 

[heikkiv]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

I recently got a 10x40 mark4. Gotta say that the TMR reticle is one of the best I've ever seen, but the glass quality was a big disappointment. Even the NXS was WAY much better than the mark4 even though the 10x40 should be somewhat special. For the price, I wouldn't recommend new leupold. It's a different thing if you get some good pre-owned or something like that, but I wouldn't get one new.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heikkiv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently got a 10x40 mark4. Gotta say that the TMR reticle is one of the best I've ever seen, but the glass quality was a big disappointment. Even the NXS was WAY much better than the mark4 even though the 10x40 should be somewhat special. For the price, I wouldn't recommend new leupold. It's a different thing if you get some good pre-owned or something like that, but I wouldn't get one new. </div></div> I disagree with this, I just got a Mk4 with M5 turrets and think the glass is better than the NF, but I think my IOR's glass is better than the Luepold.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

And people see more problems with Leupolds because they sell more than all the compition combind, ofcourse there will be more problems being talked about online just by the sheer volume of scopes in use.

 

[diriel]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

I hope this don't come off sounding poorly, but I would honestly LOVE to see a Leupy hang with an IOR from a pure Optics stand point! One thing very few people who own an IOR complain about is the optics, for the price you pay the optics are crazy good.

I happen to own an IOR 3x18-42. To date, I have not seen anything short of a SB or Hen actually "beat" the IOR in optics. Lots of good optics out there, but not so many Great Optics out there. Yet...

Gary

 

[matchking]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diriel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ......but I would honestly LOVE to see a Leupy hang with an IOR from a pure Optics stand point! One thing very few people who own an IOR complain about is the optics, for the price you pay the optics are crazy good.</div></div>
I would love to see an IOR hang with ANY of the competition from a reliability standpoint. Great "glass" isn't everything. Of course, buying IOR over other brands helps the shipping industry in these hard times.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diriel</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ......but I would honestly LOVE to see a Leupy hang with an IOR from a pure Optics stand point! One thing very few people who own an IOR complain about is the optics, for the price you pay the optics are crazy good.</div></div>
I would love to see an IOR hang with ANY of the competition from a reliability standpoint. Great "glass" isn't everything. Of course, buying IOR over other brands helps the shipping industry in these hard times. </div></div> IOR 4th Gen has been 100%.

Although I guess we could look at all the other scopes from SB, Henny and NF that have problems in the last year.

 

[diriel]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

matchking,

IOR did have some problems. You will note I was careful to say GLASS. The gen 4 IOR's have been getting good solid reports. My old Gen 1 "Flea" scope, serial # 001 has just over 600 rounds of 300wm, and 2600 rounds of 6.5x55 BJAI. Never had a problem to date.

My point was that some one tried to say Leupy was Easily up with IOR on quality of GLASS. Had to call BS on that.

Have a good one,
Gary

 

[matchking]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CrazyDonkey</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> IOR 4th Gen has been 100%.

Although I guess we could look at all the other scopes from SB, Henny and NF that have problems in the last year.</div></div>
It probably wouldn't take long to look at all the problems from two of those three companies - and that's without skipping 3 "generations."

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It sounds like you have done exstensive side-by-side testing and comparisons.</div></div>
</div></div>

nice misquote. i never said that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diriel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

My point was that some one tried to say Leupy was Easily up with IOR on quality of GLASS. Had to call BS on that.

Have a good one,
Gary</div></div>

i don't think anyone on this thread or any other thread said that Leupold glass is better than IOR glass.

 

[diriel]

Re: my buddy wants a MK4.. whats better for the price?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remau308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would not say the IOR or SWFA has MUCH better glass, or even better glass at all, and my PST didn't compare to the glass my 8.5-25 ER/T had. Although, the PST was very much worth the lower price paid. I would definitely put the Mark 4 on par with the IOR, and above the PST. Also, the TMR reticle is really nice with small 0.5mil hashes and larger 1mil hashes. Have you looked at the Mark 4's with matching mil TMR reticle and mil M5 knobs? They are very nice, and on par with the IOR (don't know about the SWFA), and better than the PST, Bushnell, and Falcon...just my opinion though, but I don't think the Bushnell or Falcon should be in the same list as the PST, IOR, and this particular SWFA. </div></div>

Perhaps I misread it.
Gary