My Day at the Range and a Question About Bullets Destroying Meat

[DustBun]

On Sunday I took my Knights SR-25 to the range to practice. There was an open lane between a guy shooting a 30-30 to the left and a guy wearing a Vietnam Veteran hat and his wife shooting a Glock to the right. As I was taking my rifle out of the case I heard her say “Jesus” in a condescending way but I ignored it. I took my first shot and heard some comment about the noise from Mr. & Mrs. Glock. Lucky for them I use a brass catcher or they would have really been pissed about the flying brass since the Knights has twin ejectors. I fired about 5 more rounds over the next 5 minutes when the range went cold.

At that point, Mr. Glock then asked me why I felt compelled to own an AR-15, in a self-righteous manner. I didn’t even bother trying to explain to him that this was an SR-25, I knew it wouldn’t have mattered. They saw big black scary looking so it had to be an AR-15. I respectfully stated “I just enjoy shooting a semi-automatic platform.” That was it. He stated that too many people have these “assault rifles”. I stated “uh-huh”, thinking to myself, yeah my SR weighs about 18 pounds, it’s a real “assault rifle”. He stated a handgun is better for home defense and if you hunt with an AR-15 you will destroy the meat. I stated “With regards to home defense, what is comfortable for me may not be comfortable for someone else and people should use what is best for them.” “With regards to destroying the meat, it doesn’t matter if the bullet comes out of a semi-automatic or a bolt action, the damage will be the same, it is about the cartridge.” At that point it got stupid. He then stated “No, the AR-15 bullets are more powerful and cause more damage than the civilian bullets.” I then stated “There is no such thing as an AR-15 bullet, there is a .223 Remington and 5.56x45 mm NATO cartridge which are the cartridges used in most AR-15 platforms, the same that are used in bolt action rifles.” He then stated that he had read something somewhere and “I” was misinformed. At that point I just wanted to get away from the situation because I didn’t go to the range for this crap so I stated “Okay, well I want to get back to shooting when the range goes hot so have a good day.” The whole time “she” had this look of disgust towards me on her fat face. They packed up and left. I packed up and left 15 minutes later, disgusted with the ignorance of people and regretting that I allowed others to do this to me.

I had briefly thought about offering them the opportunity to shoot my Knights but this cuck and his cow acted so morally superior that I felt they weren’t worth the cost of the cartridges. The more I think about it, the more pissed I get. I imagine they will take their Glock and put it back in their nightstand and feel safe knowing it is there, regardless of the fact that they have had no significant training nor practiced any situation drills at home. I tend to wonder if he even was a Vietnam veteran. If he was then he forget his oath to “defend the Constitution” or didn’t take it seriously. I did. Sorry and thanks for letting me rant. You hear about these people but you don’t meet them. I was up half the night thinking “I should have said this or that”.

I use my SR as a very expensive paper punch. I have never have been hunting so I am ignorant about the effect of a bullet on meat. I have seen a bunch of ballistic gel tests but do not know if they compare because of the lack of bone. When I was in the Air Force, we were taught that the 5.56 mm bullet was designed to tumble. So the question. In a hunting scenario, is a 5.56 mm bullet more destructive to the meat than say a .308 Winchester? I would think not.

Edit: Added line for paragraphs

 

[308pirate]

You went to a public range, you went full retard

Never go full retard

Seriously, never, EVER engage in conversation with random morons at a public range. Even better find a way to not need to go there at all.


I've killed quite a few deer, with 30-06, 300 Win Mag, and 6.5X55. I never gave a second thought to "destroying meat". You lose a little meat where the bullet goes in, and a little where it exits (if it does exit), it is what it is and it's such a minor issue that it's not worth even thinking about it.

 

[DustBun]

You went to a public range, you went full retard

Never go full retard

Seriously, never, EVER engage in conversation with random morons at a public range. Even better find a way to not need to go there at all.


I've killed quite a few deer, with 30-06, 300 Win Mag, and 6.5X55. I never gave a second thought to "destroying meat". You lose a little meat where the bullet goes in, and a little where it exits (if it does exit), it is what it is and it's such a minor issue that it's not worth even thinking about it.

You are right. I screwed up. I rarely go there but it is a lot closer than where I normally go. Won't make that mistake again.

Thanks for the insight on the meat. So it really isn't an issue.

 

[pmclaine]

Tell them you shoot with Armor Peircing so it doesnt destroy any meat.

 

[308pirate]

Thanks for the insight on the meat. So it really isn't an issue.

Guys who talk about "meat damage" and other stupid shit like that either don't hunt or spend too much time on hunting forums.

 

[brianf]

if i go to a civy range, i dont speak to anyone

thats why i wear muffs the whole time

and its one of the reasons i enjoy shooting so much, its just me in my own world.

no outside BS

as im getting older, i dont even like to talk to people who know their shit at the range

 

[HolyCity73]

He’s right. AR15 bullets are designed to explode on impact. They contain a radio active isotope which reacts with communism and deer causing a small, nuclear like detonation.
Also, idiots.

 

[Mike Casselton]

@DustBun

I applaud your ability to remain calm in the face of moral stupidity.

I too am an Air Force guy.
Going through M-16 training was always a pain in the ass, because most of the Airmen tasked with training us maintainers knew way less about the firearm than we did.

They could regurgitate the training materials, but could never answer questions outside of their layout.

I've heard the same bullet tumble nonsense from those guys.

Hint, it's bullshit.

Do you remember taking the ASVAB?

I do.

You had to score higher to be a cook or work in services.
LE/SP/SF were all merged because the SP requirements were so low.
The low ASVAB score required brought in some real winners.

I try my best to ignore stupid. Sounds like you did a good job and knew when to just pull the little yellow handle.

 

[pmclaine]

On Sunday I took my Knights SR-25 to the range to practice. There was an open lane between a guy shooting a 30-30 to the left and a guy wearing a Vietnam Veteran hat and his wife shooting a Glock to the right. As I was taking my rifle out of the case I heard her say “Jesus” in a condescending way but I ignored it. I took my first shot and heard some comment about the noise from Mr. & Mrs. Glock. Lucky for them I use a brass catcher or they would have really been pissed about the flying brass since the Knights has twin ejectors. I fired about 5 more rounds over the next 5 minutes when the range went cold.

At that point, Mr. Glock then asked me why I felt compelled to own an AR-15, in a self-righteous manner. I didn’t even bother trying to explain to him that this was an SR-25, I knew it wouldn’t have mattered. They saw big black scary looking so it had to be an AR-15. I respectfully stated “I just enjoy shooting a semi-automatic platform.” That was it. He stated that too many people have these “assault rifles”. I stated “uh-huh”, thinking to myself, yeah my SR weighs about 18 pounds, it’s a real “assault rifle”. He stated a handgun is better for home defense and if you hunt with an AR-15 you will destroy the meat. I stated “With regards to home defense, what is comfortable for me may not be comfortable for someone else and people should use what is best for them.” “With regards to destroying the meat, it doesn’t matter if the bullet comes out of a semi-automatic or a bolt action, the damage will be the same, it is about the cartridge.” At that point it got stupid. He then stated “No, the AR-15 bullets are more powerful and cause more damage than the civilian bullets.” I then stated “There is no such thing as an AR-15 bullet, there is a .223 Remington and 5.56x45 mm NATO cartridge which are the cartridges used in most AR-15 platforms, the same that are used in bolt action rifles.” He then stated that he had read something somewhere and “I” was misinformed. At that point I just wanted to get away from the situation because I didn’t go to the range for this crap so I stated “Okay, well I want to get back to shooting when the range goes hot so have a good day.” The whole time “she” had this look of disgust towards me on her fat face. They packed up and left. I packed up and left 15 minutes later, disgusted with the ignorance of people and regretting that I allowed others to do this to me.

I had briefly thought about offering them the opportunity to shoot my Knights but this cuck and his cow acted so morally superior that I felt they weren’t worth the cost of the cartridges. The more I think about it, the more pissed I get. I imagine they will take their Glock and put it back in their nightstand and feel safe knowing it is there, regardless of the fact that they have had no significant training nor practiced any situation drills at home. I tend to wonder if he even was a Vietnam veteran. If he was then he forget his oath to “defend the Constitution” or didn’t take it seriously. I did. Sorry and thanks for letting me rant. You hear about these people but you don’t meet them. I was up half the night thinking “I should have said this or that”.

I use my SR as a very expensive paper punch. I have never have been hunting so I am ignorant about the effect of a bullet on meat. I have seen a bunch of ballistic gel tests but do not know if they compare because of the lack of bone. When I was in the Air Force, we were taught that the 5.56 mm bullet was designed to tumble. So the question. In a hunting scenario, is a 5.56 mm bullet more destructive to the meat than say a .308 Winchester? I would think not.

Edit: Added line for paragraphs

I think the crap about tumbling bullet had to do with when the AR had a real slow twist barrel....maybe 1/14.

The rounds were as stable as they needed to be and no more. Once they hit an object they went unstable and tumbled.

Most ARs now have fast twist and shoot heavier bullets that spiral real nice and stay that way.

Sorry your range day was ruined.

I would have loved the challenge of those two.

Generally at the range I dont like talking to anyone. My time there is limited and I need to get the work in I came to do. The conversations I hate generally start " Is that a (insert rifle type here) you are shooting? Let me show you my (insert Rooney Rifle here) that shoots 1/4 MOA groups".

I use patience and let them express their pride in their Rooney gun while I hope the conversation ends quickly but......

If I can teach or crush a retard I like the challenge.

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

You are right. I screwed up. I rarely go there but it is a lot closer than where I normally go. Won't make that mistake again.

Thanks for the insight on the meat. So it really isn't an issue.

I'd go back in hopes of seeing those two asshats again. Maybe snap a photo or two and hang sign of them all over town explaining how fucking retarded they are.

 

[308pirate]

If I can teach or crush a retard I like the challenge.

You're a better man than me.

I absolutely detest interacting, beyond a polite hello, with people I don't know at the range.

 

[Supersubes]

Public ranges... you’re gonna hear some stupid shit for sure. I agree with .308, try to avoid them at all costs. I dont think it was bad you made an attempt to talk to them once they engaged. They could have been receptive, but it sounds like they were just to stupid or arrogant to listen.


I’m surprised he didn’t tell you AR-15 bullets are designed to tumble. That’s a classic.

 

[DustBun]

if i go to a civy range, i dont speak to anyone

thats why i wear muffs the whole time

and its one of the reasons i enjoy shooting so much, its just me in my own world.

no outside BS

as im getting older, i dont even like to talk to people who know their shit at the range

I am like you, I never initiate a conversation, but If I am approached I don't want to be rude so I respond as little as necessary which is why I just agreed for the most part. I go to be alone, in my own little world with a goal in mind. Never again.

 

[HolyCity73]

My dad used to say that when they switched to the M16, they were told the bullets tumbled INSIDE of the Bad guys, not on the way there. The theory was that the bullet deflected and did more damage once it entered flesh.
It was also before the internet gave everyone a PhD in Google. So there’s that.

 

[DustBun]

I'd go back in hopes of seeing those two asshats again. Maybe snap a photo or two and hang sign of them all over town explaining how fucking retarded they are.

I get what you're saying but I have already given them more time than they deserve by letting it bother me. Venting here has helped.

Edit: but was nut (duh)

 

[Supersubes]

My dad used to say that when they switched to the M16, they were told the bullets tumbled INSIDE of the Bad guys, not on the way there. The theory was that the bullet deflected and did more damage once it entered flesh.
It was also before the internet gave everyone a PhD in Google. So there’s that.

Like Pmclaine mentioned above, there was a time when they were more prone to that. That hasnt been true for a very long time though.

 

[DustBun]

My dad used to say that when they switched to the M16, they were told the bullets tumbled INSIDE of the Bad guys, not on the way there. The theory was that the bullet deflected and did more damage once it entered flesh.
It was also before the internet gave everyone a PhD in Google. So there’s that.

That's what we were taught in the 70's/80's.

 

[MtnCreek]

223 bullet is either going to keep its shape and go strait through (unlikely), mushroom changing the weight balance, fragment starting at the tip or turn around because the heavy end is the base. Some bullets will break apart as they turn (m193).

A bolt gun will typically shoot a bullet faster. A bolt gun painted black is the real evil scary rifle.

 

[Crang]

Watched my Dad shoot a rabbit with a 300 WSM when we got bored hunting elk. Hard to tell if there was meat damage. Didnt really see any meat.

 

[texastonk]

Good on you being the better man. I would have had a hard time not triggering on the man for his blatant weapon appropriation.

The tumbling 556 myth has been around for more than my 39 years. I remember hearing guys talk about that when I was a little kid.
I army vet who lived on my grandparents place said it was designed for jungle fighting in Viet Nam. if you could hit them in the leg or arm it could come out the chest or neck. ?

 

[MtnCreek]

...if you could hit them in the leg or arm it could come out the chest or neck. ?

That's exactly what my dad was told in basic in the early 70's.

 

[pmclaine]

No kidding

Just observed a deer get hit by a Kenworth Tractor at 81 FPS.

The Kenworth was a 539000000 grain projectile.

The Kenworth didnt tumble at all.

There was meat damage.

Pink mist/dust in my rear view mirror than deer fur on my windshield.

Little guy was so shocked his spikes and tongue detached.

 

[pmclaine]

You're a better man than me.

I absolutely detest interacting, beyond a polite hello, with people I don't know at the range.

Our range, membership type, got flooded with newbs during the Obammy Admin.

Lots of people showing up that were good people just discovering their rights.

They needed some instruction to ensure they had a good experience and stayed in the sport after the moment had passed.

I dont mind interjecting with them to help out if they appear to be struggling, are acceptable to my comments and wanting to learn.

 

[Rthur]

Public range...
Dumb ass doesn't know if he is taking a shit or winding his watch.
His heifer is just repeating his line of bullshit.
I've killed more than a couple of deer with a slug.
Namely 393 gr and 547 gr lead slugs.
Shot placement is key and sending one throught the boiler room (lungs) works great without any meat loss.
I quit counting how many I've butchered or helped.
Ass sphincster should shut his cock holster when the adults are talking.

R

 

[pmclaine]

"a guy wearing a Vietnam Veteran hat and his wife shooting a Glock to the right."

Any chance you are in Connecticut?

Im guessing "Danang Dick Blumenthal"

 

[Flyingbullseye]

Most fudds I've ever came across were baby boomers. I'm not surprised by their comments.

Could have offered an olive branch and asked about der grandpappies huntin rufle.

That said pmclaine post wins the thread.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I am not sure why you lost a little sleep over the incident, sometimes we need understand how insignificant others opinions are. Unless they were in your face and would not let up, it is easy to use the ignore function. I am lost on the Vietnam Vet having that opinion too, takes all kinds.
I find it hard not to be civil or congenial anywhere, and helping some clowns gets them out of there quicker, if indeed it is not a total waste of time and energy, which can be tough to decipher up front.
I've met some great people at ranges, not exactly public ranges though.

 

[Heretoimproveforhunting]

i would have turned the convwrsation around on them. "why do you have a semiautomatic glock instead of a wheel gun, etc". "yu dont need a high cap mag to defend yur house"

then i woulda sat back down and shot to my hearts content

 

[XLR308]

My last range trip I met a couple a bit older than me, the husband was there to sight in a muzzle loader and was having a hell of a time getting on paper at 50 yards.
After a brief conversation with them he told me he had never been hunting and was prepping for his first elk hunt so I offered to help him since I was having to stop shooting every five minutes to let him walk down range and inspect the target board for 50 cal holes to try and figure out were he was shooting.
I told him to take one shot at the 120 yards steel swinger and I would spot the splash and give him a correction.
He looked puzzled by that and stated it was only a muzzle loader with iron sights and didn't think that was realistic but followed my instructions and proceeded.
He took his shot I gave him a correction and helped him adjust his sights.
His next shot was easily on paper at 50 yards and both his and my frustration was over beyond that point.
And to answer the question regarding meat damage it's all about bullet construction, impact velocity, shot placement and caliber used.
The cannon fodder dipshits you wasted your time engaging in conversation with weren't worth your time and you handled it better than me I suppose because they would have been offended by my reaction far sooner.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Sarcasm and or bold face ridiculousness.

If nothing else you get some amusement out of watching them squirm even more.

 

[EddieNFL]

You went to a public range, you went full retard

Never go full retard

Seriously, never, EVER engage in conversation with random morons at a public range. Even better find a way to not need to go there at all.


I've killed quite a few deer, with 30-06, 300 Win Mag, and 6.5X55. I never gave a second thought to "destroying meat". You lose a little meat where the bullet goes in, and a little where it exits (if it does exit), it is what it is and it's such a minor issue that it's not worth even thinking about it.

If it were not for public ranges I would have never know the 8MM Mauser, as issued, could take deer out to 1K...with surplus ammo. The bullet doesn't drop more six inches.

Also, the 45GAP doesn't drop out to 380 yards.

 

[j-huskey]

To the OP

Meat damage by bullet is subjective.

Bullet A hitting a 35# animal goes through, no damage. Bullet A hits a 250# animal, meeting resistance, and starts to expand as designed for 250# animals, there is a degree of damage. But not enough to ruin meat, IF placed through the rib cage, heart lungs. The good meat never saw the bullet, nor damage.

Bullet B, designed for small animals, expands and does "some" damage, again, placement matters, damage where you want it, or damage elsewhere. Bullet B has been known to expand and fragment on the skin of a 250+# animal.

Bullet C, might tumble and fragment, as it was designed to do, inside the body, and depending on the size of said body, can have no visible response as the 250# boar walks off to die a mile away, versus, the same bullet through a 30# pig, leaves it laying there with internal organs laying outside.

Its impossible to explain that to the type idiot OP describes.

Under stabilized bullets in any caliber (too slow a twist) "can" tumble in flight with no interference and more likely than not "will" tumble when they hit something to cause deflection.
History records it in the earliest m16 platforms, in 12 and 14 twist which led to a 9 twist, then a 7, in the m16.

The legends live on, as normally lies, legends, and myths live forever, not withstanding 'Mythbusters' proved it a myth on tv, and 78 million people saw it. "It" lives on, and on, and on, and annoys knowledgeable people when the type ignorant people you met at the range continue to steal oxygen.

Properly stabilized bullets are not likely to tumble in flight, but, a .30 - 168 Sierra match king, that shoots very very well at 600 yards, sub moa, has been proven to go sideways 24" behind the automotive windshield it passed through. History records it.

There is a wealth of knowledge out there to educate truly interested people like the OP, and to be ignored by the ignorant, stupid, and f'tard types often found at public ranges.

I applaud the OP for his civil response to those ignorant people he dealt with.
vr

 

[Bigfatcock]

Don’t talk to retards.

 

[hollowoutadime]

Seriously, never, EVER engage in conversation with random morons at a public range.

Really good advice.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Okay, I have a curiosity about the 5.56/.223 "tumbling" thing. I reckon it's entirely absolute crap but, and hear me out and please correct me if I'm wrong, since it's been quoted and requoted and claimed and insisted upon for a helluva long time, I wonder if there's not even the tiniest atom of truth to it and it's not related to this thought:

The original M16 had a rifling twist of 1:12", from a 20" barrel. That gives you almost two complete turns of rifling, right? The original XM177 carbines and their USAF GAU counterparts used the same 1:12 twist in their rifling, but in a 10" or 11.5" barrel, which doesn't give even a single complete turn. Modern M16s and M4s and such have a 1:7 twist, giving you two full turns in most carbines and almost three in a rifle.

Is it possible that the twist rate vs barrel length plus a brand new cartridge and weapon system could have resulted in the bullets being less stable in flight in the early M16 models, in particular the carbines? Not outright "they flip-flop and roll ass-over-tip in the air", just some degree of wobble that mixed with the thick-as-soup humidity in Southeast Asia could've made them less stable and led to a belief that they "tumbled"?

 

[Racer88]

"Is that one of those ceramic Glock 7s that's undetectable at airports? Why does anyone need one of those?"

Most of the folks I meet at the range are pretty nice. There are always one or two of those "know-it-alls" who talk more than they shoot. Interacting as little as possible or acting non-chalant will usually bore them and they go away to bother someone else more willing to engage.

Perhaps we can coin a new term... He is a "Viet-Fudd."

BTW... anyone who uses the Rush "Star Man" as his avatar is cool in my book. I'm a big Rush fan!

PS... I might have done a mag dump just to piss them off even more. Naaa... I definitely would have done it! LOL

 

[j-huskey]

I can see/hear the following response to the f'tards the OP dealt with.

OK, so, f'tard, your choice for home defense is grock. You dont think an AR platform is good for that, and i respect your opinion on it.

Some people like Krystal hamburgers, I prefer something higher classed, like "Ruth's Chris".

Some people like blonde women, I like interesting women.... blonde, brunette, black, or red, doesn't matter.

Some people even like ugly attitudinal women like that thing with you dude, I'd think you could do better. But, retards like you have to settle for what you can get.
How much you have to pay that ugly bitch to go with you ?

Right b4 I get thrown off the range.

 

[j-huskey]

Okay, I have a curiosity about the 5.56/.223 "tumbling" thing. I reckon it's entirely absolute crap but, and hear me out and please correct me if I'm wrong, since it's been quoted and requoted and claimed and insisted upon for a helluva long time, I wonder if there's not even the tiniest atom of truth to it and it's not related to this thought:

The original M16 had a rifling twist of 1:12", from a 20" barrel. That gives you almost two complete turns of rifling, right? The original XM177 carbines and their USAF GAU counterparts used the same 1:12 twist in their rifling, but in a 10" or 11.5" barrel, which doesn't give even a single complete turn. Modern M16s and M4s and such have a 1:7 twist, giving you two full turns in most carbines and almost three in a rifle.

Is it possible that the twist rate vs barrel length plus a brand new cartridge and weapon system could have resulted in the bullets being less stable in flight in the early M16 models, in particular the carbines? Not outright "they flip-flop and roll ass-over-tip in the air", just some degree of wobble that mixed with the thick-as-soup humidity in Southeast Asia could've made them less stable and led to a belief that they "tumbled"?

Not a belief they tumbled. They did tumble and it was documented in government testing, leading to the increased twist rates.

If you had access to old Picitinny Arsenal records, there is a good bit of proof recorded. I read paper copies years ago, and shot with the authors when they were stationed at ft. Benning.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Not a belief they tumbled. They did tumble and it was documented in government testing, leading to the increased twist rates.

If you had access to old Picitinny Arsenal records, there is a good bit of proof recorded. I read paper copies years ago, and shot with the authors when they were stationed at ft. Benning.

But they weren't designed to tumble in flight or cavitate on impact any more than the .30-06 was, yeah? It was a combined matter of bullet weight/barrel length/twist rate/environmental conditions and not a conscious choice by Remington during the development process that the bullet should tumble?

 

[AIAW]

 

[j-huskey]

But they weren't designed to tumble in flight or cavitate on impact any more than the .30-06 was, yeah? It was a combined matter of bullet weight/barrel length/twist rate/environmental conditions and not a conscious choice by Remington during the development process that the bullet should tumble?

Was not designed to do that. No. Was a result of inexperienced people creating something.
Get "The Black Rifle" by Edward Ezell and Blake Stevens. It will answer questions you havent thought to ask yet.

 

[DustBun]

I am not sure why you lost a little sleep over the incident, sometimes we need understand how insignificant others opinions are. Unless they were in your face and would not let up, it is easy to use the ignore function. I am lost on the Vietnam Vet having that opinion too, takes all kinds.
I find it hard not to be civil or congenial anywhere, and helping some clowns gets them out of there quicker, if indeed it is not a total waste of time and energy, which can be tough to decipher up front.
I've met some great people at ranges, not exactly public ranges though.

Logic says I shouldn't have given it a second thought. I was polite, respectful and did nothing wrong. I guess it was all the things I wanted to say but didn't/couldn't. I am one that is stumped for an answer when someone says "hello". I always think of the right response 15 minutes AFTER the moment is past. I do get your point.

 

[DustBun]

i would have turned the convwrsation around on them. "why do you have a semiautomatic glock instead of a wheel gun, etc". "yu dont need a high cap mag to defend yur house"

then i woulda sat back down and shot to my hearts content

I like it. I wish I was a quick thinker. I think the 70's might have caused damage.

 

[MtnCreek]

Tumble in flight = less potential bullet damage. If it's tumbling in flight, it's bleeding off velocity fast.

Tumble in somebody (light tip goes in first, but bullet turns around so that heavier base is first) can cause the bullet to fragment. That can do a lot of damage. Bullet construction and velocity will determine if the bullet turns around and continues or if it breaks apart when turning.

 

[The DFC]

I'm to the point where in my mind you either understand the 2A and its intent or you don't. People that don't are not worth debating beyond stating facts like an AR doesn't shoot 1000 rounds/second or they're not full auto or the % of semi auto rifle related deaths is miniscule compared to all other firearms or you can't buy them on the interwebz without a BGC and all the other BS media contrived fallacies.

Beyond that I just say the AR15 is an anti-tyranny tool and every American should have at least 1 and know how to use it.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

I shoot at a local premium club with Members Only and all Members being NRA and having to prove it. Been there 3 years now learning (teaching myself) precision rifle after being a hand gun only guy for over 40 years.

There are signs all over our range directed at concealed carriers that it is against club rules to carry a loaded firearm to the line loaded be it concealed or carried openly. They want all concealed carriers to leave their CCL pistols in the car. A whole Fudd Club. The other option is a public range of max 100 yards. Been there - no way.

There are Fudds and dumb asses everywhere. I try to not talk to anyone except to smile and nod. If someone asks me a genuine question about my rifle and whatever I'll talk to them. The minute they "tell" me anything or begin to pontificate, lecture, inform, vex, bully, badger or try to convince me I put my hearing protection in while glaring at them and get on the gun. One guy I did this to waited until I was done shooting and packed up and then resumed his diatribe while I was loading the truck...I just looked at him and pointed to my ears and shook my head "no!" got in the truck and drove away.

I will not tolerate dumb fucks at the range and it's full of them anymore.

VooDoo

 

[DustBun]

To the OP

Meat damage by bullet is subjective.

Bullet A hitting a 35# animal goes through, no damage. Bullet A hits a 250# animal, meeting resistance, and starts to expand as designed for 250# animals, there is a degree of damage. But not enough to ruin meat, IF placed through the rib cage, heart lungs. The good meat never saw the bullet, nor damage.

Bullet B, designed for small animals, expands and does "some" damage, again, placement matters, damage where you want it, or damage elsewhere. Bullet B has been known to expand and fragment on the skin of a 250+# animal.

Bullet C, might tumble and fragment, as it was designed to do, inside the body, and depending on the size of said body, can have no visible response as the 250# boar walks off to die a mile away, versus, the same bullet through a 30# pig, leaves it laying there with internal organs laying outside.

Its impossible to explain that to the type idiot OP describes.

Under stabilized bullets in any caliber (too slow a twist) "can" tumble in flight with no interference and more likely than not "will" tumble when they hit something to cause deflection.
History records it in the earliest m16 platforms, in 12 and 14 twist which led to a 9 twist, then a 7, in the m16.

The legends live on, as normally lies, legends, and myths live forever, not withstanding 'Mythbusters' proved it a myth on tv, and 78 million people saw it. "It" lives on, and on, and on, and annoys knowledgeable people when the type ignorant people you met at the range continue to steal oxygen.

Properly stabilized bullets are not likely to tumble in flight, but, a .30 - 168 Sierra match king, that shoots very very well at 600 yards, sub moa, has been proven to go sideways 24" behind the automotive windshield it passed through. History records it.

There is a wealth of knowledge out there to educate truly interested people like the OP, and to be ignored by the ignorant, stupid, and f'tard types often found at public ranges.

I applaud the OP for his civil response to those ignorant people he dealt with.
vr

Thank you for the detailed information.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I was polite, respectful and did nothing wrong.

See, there you go, you did it right. lol
I can let little shit bug me too, you could total my new PU and I would hate you less than if I knew you were undermining me for some chickenshit reason.

 

[DustBun]

"Is that one of those ceramic Glock 7s that's undetectable at airports? Why does anyone need one of those?"

Most of the folks I meet at the range are pretty nice. There are always one or two of those "know-it-alls" who talk more than they shoot. Interacting as little as possible or acting non-chalant will usually bore them and they go away to bother someone else more willing to engage.

Perhaps we can coin a new term... He is a "Viet-Fudd."

BTW... anyone who uses the Rush "Star Man" as his avatar is cool in my book. I'm a big Rush fan!

PS... I might have done a mag dump just to piss them off even more. Naaa... I definitely would have done it! LOL

I like the Viet-Fudd.

Just the fact that you know the Starman means you are cool in my book too. Seen them 5 times. My favorite band. In someways I think the lyrics for A Farewell to Kings is about our current political condition. Even 2112 has something where the Priests are telling the people what they can like. Sound familiar?

 

[Inifinty]

Deer rifles in the woods during hunting season concern me more than a semi-auto on the firing line.