My experience with Lilja as a company and 17 HM2 barrel

[Kisssofdeath]

Yesterday I received my 17 HM2 barrel for my Sako Finnfire P94S. The barrel looked great at first sight. My Go Gauge was also there. I take the Go Gauge, put in the chamber and it doesn't fit like the website said it would. I look at the Go Gauge and it is not a Pacific Tool & Gauge brand but a Manson brand. That is two negative strikes immediately. I call Lilja and talk a guy named Carson. I ask him what torque setting he recommended because neither his website nor the instructions provided guidance. Carson tells be 20 to 30 in/lb should be enough (he really doesn't know). I then ask him about setting headspace with a gauge that doesn't fit. He proceeds to tell me how he knew it wouldn't fit and that I should shorten the gauge with a grinder or something. I tell him that's not what I ordered and at this point I have several more questions to ask but the conversation quickly took a turn when he said I could just return it for a refund and I said I would. The barrel seats flush with the receiver anyway with a round in the chamber so IMO the headspace gauge for this barrel/receiver was irrelevant.

Here are some photos from yesterday with commentary.

Barrel installed before any shooting. Notice, no gap between barrel and receiver.

Manson 22 LR headspace gauge. Lilja website description.

This phone call was ok with the exception of him recommending the grinder as a fix for an improper headspace gauge. That was really unprofessional IMO to be told that. Later on I find that Carson is not very professional and his recommendation was actually spot on for him.

Shooting the barrel with the recommended break in procedure as recommended by Lilja. You can see what items I used. The procedure consist of.

1. Wet patch (Shooters Choice)
2. 5 strokes with bronze brush
3. Wet patch (Shooters Choice)
4. Dry patch
5. Wet patch (Sweets 7.62)
6. Dry patch
7 Dry patch

On the 5th shot the rifle wouldn't fire. I tried a couple of different rounds before noticing the barrel had moved forward.

At this point negativity starts setting in along with wasting time. I wanted to get the break in done on this day. I reset the barrel and this time with 50 in/lbs according to my Wheeler Fat Wrench. I shoot 5 rounds and guess what...the barrel moves forward again. At this point it is getting dark so I just quit for the day, set the barrel back and just tightened it down pretty damn tight with an Allen wrench. Not sure what the in/lb is.

Here is what the Lilja website says.

So, this brings us to today and my conversation with Carson. Three immediate takeaways from our conversation are:

1. Lilja could care less they sell products that do not work.
2. Lilja website is inaccurate in other places also, not just these two examples.
3. Carson is a very condescending person who doesn't want to acknowledge his or the company shortcomings and errors.

Carson himself is not very knowledgeable about this 17 HM2 barrel for the Finnfire. First, I have to remind him who I am and we talked yesterday about the useless Go gauge I had. After he remembered he asked about setting the headspace with the provided shims, I said it didn't come with shims, he said oh, that's right it's for the Finnfire. Next he tells me the headspace is already set and the barrel fits flush with the receiver, I ask why does his website tell me I should have a small gap, and if it's preset why does the website say I need a headspace gauge, then he tells me the headspace has to be set with the gauge and never mind what he said before. When I started questioning him about his and the websites discrepancies he got angry and very offensive in nature. At that point I told him I would be returning the Go gauge for a full refund and our discussion was over and hung up the phone.

This is my first hand experience with a company many of you may love. As for me, I'll never even look at their website again much less give them my money. It's one thing to have a bad product but to be talked to and treated the way I was is totally unacceptable. Hell, even with 3 bad barrels from Fedderson they still treated me with respect and for that I would do business with them again under the right circumstance for the right product.

I will continue shooting the 17 HM2 and see how it performs. Break in period is over. Good or bad the results will be posted here.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

OK, I got to fire off 30 rounds before the rain started. I'll post more but looks like the barrel may be a good shooter, I sure hope so. I also cleaned the barrel again to see if I can get another group like the 1st and 2nd. Also I show the cleaning patches again and the copper fouling is much less present this time around.

I haven't checked the torque value but the barrel did not move during this 30 rounds.

Cleaned with Shooters Choice MC7, no brush.

10 strokes with brush and 3 wet Shooters Choice patches. These were followed by 2 dry patches as shown above.

2 wet patches with Sweets 7.62.

2 dry patches after Sweets.

The last 3 patches are a wet with Shooters Choice and two dry. I wanted to make sure all the Sweets was out.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Got to finish out the day by shooting 50 rounds of each ammo. Results are posted below which are probably not that bad. After I cleaned the barrel after the rain I first shot the CCI ammo. For the most part it is shooting better than 1/2". Next I shot Hornady and it didn't group as well as earlier in the day. After I clean it (same method as before) I'll shoot the Hornady first and see how it does. I did have two FT Fire from the Hornady ammo. Looked like simply light primer strikes, both rounds fired on the second try. The barrel has not moved. I will probably get a new striker spring kit from J&P Custom like I did for the older Sako Finnfire Range and my older Anschutz 1813.

I'm sure Lilja makes great products or they would be out of business or have a bad reputation. Their website accuracy is severely suffering IMO because of the inaccuracy issues. I don't like the feeling knowing that they are selling a product knowingly that won't work for what it is advertised for. And the big one, as a paying customer I don't and will not be talked to like Carson talked to me for a brief moment.

Overall so far I am happy with the barrel. I am also glad I made the purchase as it may have been the only chance to get this caliber barrel for a Sako Finnfire P94S action. But, they will never get another dime from me and ole Carson is to thank for that.

 

[J Scott]

Wow, what a journey and very well documented! Darn fine shooting, too!

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Ive got a lilja barrel that wont shoot no matter the load (500 rounds down the tube and still nothing) or maintain zero for shit, not to mention, it is about 100fps slower than all other blanks with the same charge weight. I know it isn't my scope b/c its on my AI and other barrels don't experience this. I called Lilja to ask about if they could warranty the blank and Carson gave me the runaround. Won't be getting another Lilja barrel any time soon.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Thanks J Scott.

BLKWLFK9, regarding your bad Lilja barrel, what caliber is it?

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Thanks J Scott.

BLKWLFK9, regarding your bad Lilja barrel, what caliber is it?

.25cm

 

[Frankr]

KOD

Thanks for the range report. Glad to see the barrel shoots but holy hell it sounds like the guy was an ass. I wouldn’t do business with them either if they treat people like that. Being polite doesn’t cost them any money but being rude does by losing future sales.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I'm confused. What was wrong with the go gauge they sent?

 

[Threadcutter308]

I'm confused. What was wrong with the go gauge they sent?

Also like to point out that it is not a Lilja manufactured gauge, it is made by PTG........Perhaps that is why Carson said he knew it would not fit.......

 

[pmclaine]

The instructions say there should be a small gap between receiver/barrel when barrel is fit with gauge in chamber.

When you installed it you had no gap.

Would the long gauge have given you the correct/specified gap between receiver and barrel.

Carson certainly seems in need of training but perhaps all is right with your barrel.

Im assuming "does not fit" relates to the fact that the long gauge hits the shoulder of the chamber but that is the way the gauge is designed to be used and that not fitting creates the gap between receiver and barrel that is specified?

Speaking outside my lane. Just looking for reason they could be so specific in their instructions yet things seem so fucked up. Ive only heard good things about Lilja in my experience.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

Thanks Frankr.

Culpeper,

The go gauge sent should have been a PTG, that's the first error. I didn't buy a Manson, I bought a PTG and was sent a Manson. If the Manson go guage would have fit all would have been ok but it didn't. The PTG would have been shorter and worked for both calibers as the Lilja website says. Carson knew all of this, he knew he replaced the PTG with the Manson because he told me and he still never changed the website. He also knew the Manson would not fit the 17 HM2, he never changed the website. Now, do you see the problem here. I hate it when people make excuses and that was what Carson was doing. When I called him out on these discrepancies between what he is saying and what his website says, he gets mad. That's the worst thing of all, he knew all of this and did nothing to fix it.

Threadcutter308,

The above should have taken care of your thoughts.

pmclaine,

My answers in red.

The instructions say there should be a small gap between receiver/barrel when barrel is fit with gauge in chamber. That is true "only if it fits".

When you installed it you had no gap. That's true, when I installed "THE BARREL" I had no gap.

Would the long gauge have given you the correct/specified gap between receiver and barrel. No because it didn't fit.

Carson certainly seems in need of training but perhaps all is right with your barrel. My thoughts exactly, he needs daddy Dan to bust that ass.

Im assuming "does not fit" relates to the fact that the long gauge hits the shoulder of the chamber but that is the way the gauge is designed to be used and that not fitting creates the gap between receiver and barrel that is specified? Respectfully, this is not correct. A chamber guage should never be used for something it isn't designed for. "If" I had used that guage the barrel would never make it to the extractor, the rifle would never fire, the barrel would be too far forward. It just simply wouldn't work.

Speaking outside my lane. Just looking for reason they could be so specific in their instructions yet things seem so fucked up. Ive only heard good things about Lilja in my experience. I agree with this also, always heard good things about Lilja. As mentioned above I am happy with the product and glad I bought it. However it was totally unacceptable for anyone in business to treat a "PAYING" customer the way I was.

Now for a couple more target photos. I ran out of the reinforcement rings and had to use these small 1/4" dots. If you have a scope that can see them with a nice reticle they work great. It appears the CCI 17 grain is the way to go out of these two. I will buy some 15.5 grain ammo soon and test.

 

[Lilja Riflebarrels]

This post was brought to my attention only recently, and I feel the need to correct some confusion that's been stated. I'm not interested in getting in a pissing match with @Kisssofdeath.

#1 I think what needs to be made abundantly clear, is that these barrels where first produced about 10-15 years ago. This was a project that Dan started before I was involved in the company, and they where almost a disaster from the start, especially the 22LR barrels. Feeding was the main issue, for whatever reason we could not get them to reliably feed. Essentially every barrel that we sold, (maybe 20-30 in the first run) was sent back to us with the receiver so we could work on and get to feed properly in our shop. It was, quite frankly, a disaster from the start. Combine that with the lack of 22LR and HM2 ammo shortly after, and we decided to discontinue that line of barrels. The barrel this gentleman ordered was made about 15 years ago, and was was offered at a very steep discount to clean out some leftover inventory.

#2 The go gauge that was purchased was made for a 22LR. When those instructions where first made, (keep in mind, 10-15 years ago,) and yes I do understand the instructions where incorrect in describing the go gauge. I believe I stopped purchasing PTG gauges because they wanted to charge me $40 per gauge, which I thought was criminal for a simple LR go gauge. Manson was able to make them for quite a bit cheaper, and with us not producing HM2 barrels for several years because of the shortage, I didn't see a need to spend a little more for the extra cut to fit in the HM2 chamber. With the recent availability in HM2 ammo, as explained to the gentleman on the phone, my next purchase of go gauges would be made to fit in HM2 chambers. I explained over the phone the gauge he purchased would be able to work in his barrel if he shortened it. He didn't like that option, so I offered to refund his money, which I did when he sent it back.

#3 I'll be the first to admit I am not knowledgeable on these actions and barrels. I didn't produce the run that did these barrels, didn't work on them when they where sent back, didn't write the instructions etc. I don't personally own one of these rifles, I'll be honest enough to say I've never personally installed a barrel on one. Should I have done a little more research before trying to clean out our inventory. Of course, absolutely. This post would be a great example of why I should have. But time was limited and I didn't, and I apologize to the OP for that.

#4 Now, lastly. I do recall the conversation on the phone. And yes, I do believe I was short and even possibly rude on the phone. But, I would encourage anyone to get a comment like this, and not get immediately irritated.

"he needs daddy Dan to bust that ass."

Comments like that are a surefire way to get me in a very pleasant mood.

Hopefully that answers any questions.

Carson Lilja.

 

[rick137]

I had an extended email conversation with Carson a month ago. My interaction was much different than KOD. I own two Sako Quads. Several years ago ordered two Lilja barrels, one 22LR and one 17HMR. They fit both receivers perfectly. A couple of months ago I ordered two more barrels, again one in 22LR and one in 17HMR. Interestingly the new 22LR Lilja barrel fit perfectly in both receivers but the new 17HMR in only one. The bolt simply would not close. Carson correctly diagnosed it was a misalignment of the extractor and the extractor slot in the barrel. A very small misalignment since I finally discovered that with a bit of upward force on the bolt handle the bolt would close. Tight to be sure but issue resolved. By the way I used a PTG Go Gauge to determine all was correct with all barrels on both receivers.

At one point Carson offered to correct the issue if I sent the barrel and receiver to him. I would give Carson and Lilja an excellent for customer service.

So a sample size of two, one unhappy customer and one happy customer. A small sample size to be sure.

RLS