My first bolt gun - Help

[Nik H]

Hello Everyone,

Let me start by saying that I am totally new and inexperienced to long range shooting (>300 yards). Although I have been target shooting for over 30 years, it has been limited to pistol and short range rifle. I have used nothing but SA type rifles to date.

I now have access to a longer range (600 yd) facility. Based on my initial outings with my SA 7.62mm, 6.8mm SPC and 5.56mm rifles, it became very apparent that I need some instruction to improve. Small errors at 200 yards certainly amplify at 600 yards. I plan to take some training courses this year. I have been viewing the excellent on-line training offered by LL already. Learning a great deal. However, most of the precision rifle courses that I have looked at require or strongly suggest a bolt action rifle. As a result, I have been planning the build of my first bolt action rifle for some time now. However, I am a fish out of water as all my present rifles are SA types.

An obstacle for me is that I am left handed. Although I believe I have narrowed down the choice of some components, I am having a lot of trouble with stock selection. Here is a rundown on components and the such.

Caliber: 7.62mm or 300WM. Don't know which yet. Leaning to .300WM as I have been hand loading this for a while for several of my buddies that use this cartridge
Action: Defiance Deviant short or long action depending on caliber
Barrel: Bartlein (24") 5R rifling, 1:10 twist (300WM) or 1:11 twist (7.62mm), #7 contour??
Trigger: Jewell but open to other suggestions. All I know are Geissele.
Brake: Seekins Precision ATC
Gunsmith: TBD

My preference would be to order a new style AICS AX style as it has quite the reputation for quality and flexibility but I don't think it is available in LH.

If this is not an option, I would plan to use different stock along with the Badger Ordinance M5 DBM Detacheable Magazine/Trigger Guard. In this case, I would like any suggestions regarding a stock manufacturer. I have looked at a number of them but there is never any mention of LH as an option. I would really want something with an adjustable LOP and cheekpiece.

Any help that you gentlemen could provide on a gunsmith, stock selection or any of the other component choices I have listed would be very much appreciated.

Very best regards,

 

[Dallas4rceMarine]

you just opened a worm hole. any question which can be left to personal preference is going to get you 1,000 different answers. What I will tell you is you have picked a good action and barrel. trigger can be jewell, timney, both adjusted by your smith to determined pull weight. for the gunsmith I recommend Mark Gordon at Short Action Customs, his Alpha 11 action is actually made by defiance so you now have 2 options that might have different lead times but same quality. as for the stock Manners has become my favorite as they continue to push the envelope, their new 2014 stocks are super light and extremely adjustable.

good luck, and stand by for a million different answers!!

 

[Nik H]

The more the merrier. Thank you for the tip on Manner and short action.

BR,

 

[bogeybrown]

Is this a rifle you foresee shooting well beyond the 600yds you currently have access to?

The reason I ask is that the setup you're "proposing" is one HELLUVA rifle to only be shooting to 600. For the money involved it's also going to be overkill at that range. An accurate 5.56 is still viable at 600, and RRA is making some off-the-shelf rifles capable of acceptable accuracy at that distance (Service Rifle competitors are shooting 5.56 with iron sights at 600). You can get to 600 accurately and reliably for right around the cost of just the Deviant action. I'm not saying it's the BEST choice, but it's entirely reasonable and poses a challenge to you as a shooter whereas a bigger caliber, espec 300WM is going to get boring quickly unless you're continually reducing your target sizes.

If you're planning to get out to the medium long-range area 1200-1500, or farther, then you'd see more return on the investment with that badass bolt action setup in a bigger caliber.

Nothing AT ALL wrong with any of the components you're looking at, and I'm with Dallas on checking out Manners, especially if weight is an issue. Stockysstocks typically has a few in stock for immediate shipment if you're not particular about color.

ETA: I should add: I wasn't crapping on your planned build. I personally bought a "precision" AR and a Service Rifle last year for the sole purpose of working on marksmanship with and without optics out in that 600yd zone where my precision bolt-guns are more than I "need". As you said, the 5.56 magnifies our errors, so I'm going to get caught on my mistakes with the AR whereas I'd have a better chance of "getting away with" errors with the bigger calibers.

 

[Deadshot2]

The reason I ask is that the setup you're "proposing" is one HELLUVA rifle to only be shooting to 600. For the money involved it's also going to be overkill at that range.

Hey, some of us share the Mythbuster's Motto of "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing!"

Frankly I've never seen it a bad move to build a rifle that's capable of doing more than what I'm doing at the time. I can always "shoot shorter" with a rifle but rarely "shoot longer" than what the rifle's built for.

 

[Nik H]

I do foresee longer ranges. I am a pretty patient person so I like to bite off things a bit at a time. My performance at 600 yards leaves much to be desired. Group dispersion is poor. Much poorer than at 200 yards. I fully intend to continue practicing with the SA rifles until I get a bolt action. I have no doubt that the SA rifles I am using have great precision at 600 yards or longer, especially with good ammunition. It is definitely me not the rifle.

I have always believed that good training solves many problems. It always helped with pistol marksmanship. I just don't want to go to a training class and spend a lot of time and money with the wrong type of rifle. After reviewing some of the online training here, I appreciate the fact that shooting an SA is different than shooting a bolt action. That is why I might as well "bite the bullet and do it now". It will take some time to get anyways.

You are correct regarding the choice of caliber. That is why I haven't made that choice yet. 300WM may be too much for what I will ever do but I am trying to plan ahead. That is why I asked the question. I thank you for your answer as well.

I understand the cost of what I am proposing. It is an important consideration. However, I view the cost difference between an outstanding build and a good build to be inconsequential when compared to the cost of ammunition, training and maintenance over time. Its an investment in myself towards accomplishing something of interest.

Thanks again for validating some of my choices and for your guidance.

BR,

 

[bogeybrown]

Hey, some of us share the Mythbuster's Motto of "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing!"

Frankly I've never seen it a bad move to build a rifle that's capable of doing more than what I'm doing at the time. I can always "shoot shorter" with a rifle but rarely "shoot longer" than what the rifle's built for.

I'm totally with ya Brother,

I've certainly adhered to the Mythbusters mentality on occasion when blowing something up.

I was just putting into perspective that the proposed build is going to be in the vicinity of $4k depending on who assembles it (and we haven't touched optics). I think we can agree that you can shoot to 600yds for quite a bit less than that which is why I asked if he foresaw being able to stretch it out later down the road. Building this badass rifle to train at 600 and eventually get some real distance out of it is one thing, building that rifle with the end goal of only shooting 600 is a big investment without even scratching the surface of what the rifle will do.

One look in my gun safe will tell you that I have CERTAINLY bought some shit that I'll never get the true value out of.

OP, you replied while I was typing, disregard my last and go for it. Only thing I'd throw in there is to look at 6.5 Creedmoor or one of the other 6/6.5 variants if you reload. They're performing with the 300WM out to decent distances with a fraction of the recoil and ammo cost. The build I'm getting nailed down right now is a 6.5CM that's going to fill that distance gap beyond 1000yds where my .308s aren't super-performers but the 300WM is overkill. Just a consideration.

 

[09jisaac]

Hey, some of us share the Mythbuster's Motto of "Anything worth doing is worth overdoing!"

Frankly I've never seen it a bad move to build a rifle that's capable of doing more than what I'm doing at the time. I can always "shoot shorter" with a rifle but rarely "shoot longer" than what the rifle's built for.

Remember, a compromise rifle will not do anything as well as a purpose built rifle.

A .300wm both heavier because of the longer action, more expensive to shoot, and has a shorter life.

This is in addition to the .300wm being less friendly to the shooter.



I buy all my firearms for a specific purpose, if I gain a new purpose I gain a new firearm.

 

[Nik H]

One look in my gun safe will tell you that I have CERTAINLY bought some shit that I'll never get the true value out of.

We have a lot in common. Everything in mine falls into that category even though it gets used a lot.

 

[bogeybrown]

We have a lot in common. Everything in mine falls into that category even though it gets used a lot.

My biggest "embarrassment" is the damn 50cal that I can't seem to find anywhere to shoot. I've shot .308 out to about 1200 or so, and haven't been able to shoot the 50 past 100. It's full on retarded.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Well, the .300WM also seems to me to be overkill for anything that isn't significantly beyond 1000yd. You can get the same trajectory and wind performance from .260/6.5CM for out to 1000yd, and .280 for significantly beyond 1000yd. If you go with Magnum chamberings you will find they have an excessive overhead in reloading costs, recoil (which makes sustained practice into a form of cruel and unreasonable punishment), and throat wear.

The Mythbusters' regimen is not unreasonable, but my interpretation is that one first needs to determine whether the thing is worth doing, and then one has the justification for spending the extra moolah involved in the 'overdoing'. You may note that on the show, the overdoing only occurs once the proof of concept is successful. First guns in a new category are for developing the ability to take advantage of 'overdoing' the rifle build.

For most shooters who migrate to a new discipline (and LRP shooting is certainly one of those), something rather more basic and generic can fill the bill very adequately during that initial skills redevelopment stage.

I don't think a quality action is an excessive acquisition, because it can serve as an excellent basis for an upgrade as time progresses. It's the other excesses, like tight neck chambers, ultra adjustable stocks, maxi dollar optics, etc. that can be foregone until that upgrade. Heck; you probably own a very suitable optic already. A good quality barrel with a SAAMI neck can likely be set back and rechambered to a tighter neck with only some load redevelopment necessary when that upgrade beckons.

Think of this process as a trip best taken in easy stages. Each stage allows a better determination of the needs to be satisfied in the next stage.

Greg

 

[Nik H]

Thanks Greg…you make a lot of sense. I'm not worried about the cost of optics as I have a a nice setup already that would work. As I progress, it may be necessary to buy something with a higher top end but for now that isn't in the cards.

A couple of people have brought up the 6.5 creedmore as something I should consider. I have been looking at the ballistic characteristics and it sure seems like a winner. Totally agree with the overhead associated with the 300 WM. I have seen it first hand with some of my friends. I leaned towards that because of its better performance relative to wind drift when compared to the 7.62mm cartridges and because I have been reloading it for friends for some time now.

Not willing to compromise on the essentials though (action, barrel, trigger, stock). I have always found if you buy quality at the get go; you are never disappointed. As I said, if you do an ROI on the extra up-front cost, it is minor compared what you will spend on ammo. The only time it is a loser is if you don't use it.

Thanks again for the guidance…much appreciated.

Best regards,

 

[jakelly]

There is a LH barreled action for sale in the left handed for sale section. Templar action (defiance), bartlein barrel (1:7.7"), and chambered in 243 win for 1050. The barrel had 1500 rds down it and the action is lbrp, but it is a nice start.

 

[jakelly]

I also have a LH Borden Alpine (McWhorter) SAUM action I'd sell for $850 which is a really cheap start to a 6.5 SAUM build if you are a GAP fan.