Rifle Scopes My SN-3 Configuration

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Since I now find myself in a position to be able to purchase a USO, my head is swimming with the options.

I have narrowed it down to the following:

<span style="font-weight: bold">USO SN-3 3.2-17x</span>
58mm Objective
1/10 Mil EREK
1/10 Mil M40 Windage
30mm Tube
GAP Reticle
Red Illumination

This optic will be going on my .308 M700 and will be a dual purpose LEO and Tactical Competition rifle.

I need input from EXPERIENCED USERS on the following:

Would the 35mm tube be at all necessary on a .308. For those who have become accustomed to the USMC or Standard MIL Reticle is the GAP Reticle
an advantage or does it become cluttered? Are you still able to mil to the tenth as easily with the GAP Reticle? Is the Mil EREK as much of an advantage as the 1/2 MOA EREK.

I really want to try Mil/Mil but I am hesitant since MOA is second nature at this point. Have any of you experienced difficulty in switching over.

Thanks for the help. It's not every day you are handed a $2400 optic and I want to make sure I get it right.

Lastly if you don't have real life experience with the features I have asked about, please do not post up stuff you have read somewhere else on the internet.

 

[Jon Lester]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

MPR ret kicks all asses for ranging in mills but thats just me. Mil/Mil or MIN/MIN it is what you prefer. I am running the 3.3x17 30mm tube on my 308 and my only wish after the build was that I had went with more ....POWER!!! I wish I had a x25 on the high end.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

Wow, I hadn't even looked at the MPR. That does look good! Looks like the numbers are smaller as well.

 

[dukedurham]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

Agreed, would have liked more magnification for both of my SN-3's.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

I'd go 35mm to squeeze all of the available elevation out of it that you can.

I tried Mil/Mil for awhile and couldn't get my head wrapped around it no matter how hard I tried. I finally sold the Mil/Mil SN3 I had and bought another one in MOA/MOA, a decision I don't regret. One thing to consider though is that if you're going to use it for comps I think you're more likely to have spotters familiar with Mil calls than MOA. Seems the Mil/Mil combo is more popular.

 

[coulthard_west]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

i cant wait to get my sn3. but be prepared when u order, there are 400 scopes right now waiting to be built. mine is 2 weeks into order time and they already moved the date from 6 to 8 weeks to 10 to 12.

 

[glock24]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

I went MPR and mil/mil after first owning a GAP in mil/mil. I like the MPR much, much better. The thinner lines help improve my measurements, but are still easy to see.

Another 58mm user too I see? Good man!

 

[Aries64]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since I now find myself in a position to be able to purchase a USO, my head is swimming with the options.

I have narrowed it down to the following:

<span style="font-weight: bold">USO SN-3 3.2-17x</span>
58mm Objective
1/10 Mil EREK
1/10 Mil M40 Windage
30mm Tube
GAP Reticle
Red Illumination

This optic will be going on my .308 M700 and will be a dual purpose LEO and Tactical Competition rifle.

I need input from EXPERIENCED USERS on the following:

Would the 35mm tube be at all necessary on a .308. For those who have become accustomed to the USMC or Standard MIL Reticle is the GAP Reticle
an advantage or does it become cluttered? Are you still able to mil to the tenth as easily with the GAP Reticle? Is the Mil EREK as much of an advantage as the 1/2 MOA EREK.

I really want to try Mil/Mil but I am hesitant since MOA is second nature at this point. Have any of you experienced difficulty in switching over.

Thanks for the help. It's not every day you are handed a $2400 optic and I want to make sure I get it right.

Lastly if you don't have real life experience with the features I have asked about, please do not post up stuff you have read somewhere else on the internet. </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">LoneWolfUSMC</span>,

Glad to see that you are able to get a USO - you will love it. I'm neither LEO or Military, but I can offer you some observations from use. Hopefully you can take away something from my comments.

It is rare that I have occasion to use the illumination, so I have no need for the 58mm objective and do not have experience with one. That said, I believe that unless you will be shooting after dark/in the dark ALOT, you should seriously re-consider going with the 44mm objective. Call USO and talk to John (Williams, III) and get his input based on what your usage will be. That said, I have an SN-3 3.2-17X 44mm Lo Pro ERGO in the following configuration and offer my observations:

<span style="font-weight: bold">USO SN-3 3.2-17x</span>
44mm Lo Pro ERGO Objective
1/10 Mil EREK
1/10 Mil US#3 M40 Windage - LEFT HAND OPTION + WINDAGE STOP
35mm Tube
GAP Reticle
Green Illumination
2" ARD

<span style="font-weight: bold">Comments on option usage:</span>

(a) <span style="font-weight: bold">44mm Lo Pro ERGO Objective:</span> Plenty bright during daylight and dusk. I leave my 2" ARD on all the time as a dust and wind barrier. I've shot on many cloudy, overcast days and shot in the rain on occasion. On sunny days the USO ARD is very welcome, as the SoCal sun can actually make the image <span style="font-style: italic">too bright</span>.

(b) <span style="font-weight: bold">ARD:</span> I'm not LEO or Military, but I use an ARD as a wind & dust barrier. I leave mine on all the time as the image is plenty bright. That USO glass is GOOD! I've used both the 2" and 4" ARDs' and have found the 2" to be sufficient for my use. YMMV. NOTE: ARD <span style="font-weight: bold">OALs' are actually 2.25" and 4.25"</span> - the <span style="font-style: italic">installed lengths</span> are 2.0" and 4.0" respectively.

(c) <span style="font-weight: bold">EREK .01 MIL:</span> Low, stubby know is easy to grip with or without gloves on. Lots of space between the increments makes it easy to read the dial. Clicks are distinct and don't "wander". Matching MIL reticle and adjustments, what else is there to say but less to fuck-up on. Everything is based on 1/10s' and you get direct feedback for adjustments, if necessary. However, if you're since you know MOA and are comfortable with MOA then maybe you should stick with MOA / MOA.

(d) <span style="font-weight: bold">US#3 M40 WINDAGE:</span> 5 MILS each direction, large "scallops" are easy to grip (like the EREK), dial easy to read. Clicks are distinct and don't "wander". Matching MIL reticle and adjustments. Shape complements EREK knob nicely.

(e) <span style="font-weight: bold">LEFT HAND WINDAGE:</span> Very cool option for RH shooters would shoot mainly prone (like me) or off the bench, since you can check your Windage setting without losing your cheekweld. Not as good for RH shooters who shoot offhand and like to dial windage (since you are supporting the rifle with your weak hand you need to reach over to the left side of the tube to dial), but workable. The LH Windage Option is not listed on the USO site - you just have USO spec it on your BUILD SHEET if you want it.

(f) <span style="font-weight: bold">WINDAGE STOP:</span> From a practicality standpoint, I haven't had occasion to use it, although depending on your AO I can see where it might come in handy. Typically I don't need more than 4 MILS of Windage, and I have found it much faster to just hold it. Probably a good selling point if you ever have to the need.

(g) <span style="font-weight: bold">35mm Tube:</span> I went with the 35mm tube for the bit of extra travel but I probably could have gone with the 30mm. I shoot BH 175s' which are a little slow (BHs' states 2,600 FPS MV). I think that most people can get a .308 out to 1,000 yards using a 30mm-tubed scope without a problem, especially when using a 20 MOA base, but for an $86.00 upgrade charge why not get the 35? It can't hurt - ring selection is great enough (not so much if you go with the 58mm Objective) that you can get quality rings in a proper height to suit you. I see the upgrade charge as small amount when you are spending $2,000.00 to begin with.

(h) <span style="font-weight: bold">GAP Reticle:</span> Great reticle - IMHO the GAP reticle is cleaner and obscures less than either the USMC footballs or the US Army round Mildots. I also like the way that only the MIL marks bisect the vertices, and that the .5 MIL marks only protrude from the vertices in one direction. That is less cluttered.
<span style="font-weight: bold">NOTE:</span> Milling .01 MIL objects is iffy, as the smallest measurement avalable on the <span style="font-weight: bold">GAP Reticle</span> is .25 MIL (.90"). [The .5 MIL increments on both the vertices are .25 MIL "wide", so you can use these lines to measure height and width]. The only way to appromate to .01 MIL is to "eyeball" the object/target and bracket it between the .5 MIL marks. Not an exact method at all, but it can be done in good to moderate light. I've bracketed targets where 4, maybe 5 would fit end-to-end between the .5 MIL marks at 17X. But again, an in-exact science and difficult unless light is pretty good. I wish the GAP had a 1/10 MIL breakdowns at 6 and 3 O' Clock. That would make milling small stuff much easier.

I've looked through several MPR-equipped 3.2-17X 44mm SN-3s' before deciding on the GAP reticle. I found the <span style="font-weight: bold">MPR</span> too busy for my taste - the full MIL lines are 1 MIL long and the 1/2 MIL lines are .5 MIL long. I'm not sure about the .02 MIL lines. At any rate, all the hash marks bisect the vertices and obscure too much of the image <span style="font-style: italic">for me</span>. I have the same problem when looking through a friends 3.2-17X 44 T-PAL with the <span style="font-weight: bold">MDMOA reticle</span>. YMMV.

(i) <span style="font-weight: bold">Green illumination:</span> GREEN is easier to see in low light for me, but RED is less likely to ruin your night vision by burning-out the rods & cones in your eyes. Advantage RED. Not necessary for me but essential for LEO and Military. Either color illumination makes for an atttractive selling point if you ever cross that road.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went MPR and mil/mil after first owning a GAP in mil/mil. <span style="font-weight: bold">I like the MPR much, much better. The thinner lines help improve my measurements, but are still easy to see.</span>

Another 58mm user too I see? Good man!</div></div>
Actually, unless USO had changed the specs on the GAP and MPR the thickness of the reticle lines are equal between the GAP and the MPR (.1 MOA).

Keith

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

GAP reticle is GTG - got it in 3 scopes about to be 4.

Skip the 58MM and go with a 44 ERGO. Unless you got 22's on your huntin' truck then in that case go with the 58.

The 35mm tube is not necessary; also keep in mind it raises the center of your scope 2.5 mm so if no adjustable cheekpiece it just makes the cheek weld that much worse. The 58 also worsens your cheek weld as you gotta run taller rings for the big objective, even without the 35mm tube. Get a 30 and 44 and you will be happy.

You said M40 windage - that is a knob option on the US#1 and the US#3 - you still got to specify a knob type.

I shot the GAP and the CMG reticles this weekend. Still like the GAP better, the whole mil versus MOA issue aside. I can hold in either.

I got 3 with the #3 windage knob; seriously considering going back to a covered #1 cuz I hold rather than click so much.

 

[glock24]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aries64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Actually, unless USO had changed the specs on the GAP and MPR the thickness of the reticle lines are equal between the GAP and the MPR (.1 MOA).

Keith </div></div>

You are correct per USO's website. I can tell you though that my GAP reticle has noticeably thicker lines than my MPR. Could it because my GAP is on the 1.8-10x model, while my MPR on the 3.2-17x model?

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Skip the 58MM and go with a 44 ERGO. Unless you got 22's on your huntin' truck then in that case go with the 58.</div></div>

Well, my "huntin' truck" has red and blue lights with 16" Goodyear Lifeliners on it....oh and it's a Crown Vic. So much of my "hunting" has a possibility of taking place after dark in an urban environment since I work 2nd Shift.

I was contemplating the 58mm objective because of the possibility that I may need to use ambient light until we can get overhead lights up.

I may just have to talk to JBWIII about that one. I agree that I don't really NEED a 35mm tube, but extra elevation isn't a bad thing especially if the objective bell is going to be the limiting factor on how low I can get the optic.

Good discussion guys.

So is there anyone here with a 44mm objective who uses it at night? Does it pass enough light for target ID on say a full moonlit night at 100 yards?

 

[7mmRM]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

Do they make a 34mm tube SN3? Reason I ask, is 35mm ring options are kinda limited compared to 34mm.

 

[long-shot]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

It's too bad you're not closer to me (southern Missouri). I've got a similar setup:

3.2x17 TPAL
Mil Erek
GAP reticle
M40 windage (#1 knob w/cap as well)
44 mm objective
red illumination

I originally ran my M40 windage knob, and then just switched over to my #1 capped. I was less likely to bump it so I just set it and forget it. I like my GAP reticle a lot. It's clean enough without getting too cluttered. If I did more milling and hold-overs with my reticle I'd choose the MPR.

I am not MIL/LEO (just a weekend warrior) so my 44 mm objective is plenty, but I don't really shoot in low light situations.

My only real comment about your setup is the ERGO. I have had both ERGO and TPAL, and I much prefer the side focus. There are no performance issues with the ERGO... just my personal preference.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7mmRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do they make a 34mm tube SN3? Reason I ask, is 35mm ring options are kinda limited compared to 34mm.</div></div>

You do, but you pay more than for the 35mm. I'd still agree it's worth it for rings availability, though.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

Oh, and I've switched back and forth between MOA and MIL a couple of times while I was trying to figure out where I wanted to go in life. You'll have to re memorize your DOPE as a different set of numbers, but beyond that it's really no big deal. I personally preferred subtending Mil rets over MOA rets (MOA rets pretty much all involve mentally splitting something into 4 parts to get 0.25MOA subtend, with the Gen II I only have to split something in half with my minds eye to get 0.1Mrad.) But, of course, 0.25MOA is higher resolution so theoretically I suppose you could be more accurate in your ranging and adjustments.

I eventually went with MIL because:

I'd be talking the same language as 90%+ of the guys in any class/comp.

The GenII is my current favorite ret for reasons above

MOA/MOA scopes have too much variance from brand to brand. One is IPHY, another is true MOA, etc, etc. If you own more than one scope from more than one company it can become a royal PITA to keep track of what's what. It would be easier to mix and match Mil and MOA than IPHY and true-MOA. With Mil you pretty much always know exactly what you're going to get.

I decided I wanted a Heritage

I got a kickass deal on a Mk4 Spotter with the Gen II

The Falcon Menace makes a great trainer scope on my 22LR with the Enhanced Mildot emulating the Heritage's Gen II.


Incidentally, for that cost you might want to consider the Heritage as well. It's pretty much the same price range ($2500) and having owned a couple of SN-3's the Heritage would be my pick every single time. All of this assume you decide you want Mil/Mil, though.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

So answer me this lonewolf - with all your experience as a scout sniper, did you feel like you did not have enough objective lens and erector travel with your issued SWS scopes? Also, since when is erector travel beyond say 27 mils, the limit of the EREK knob, an issue for an LE sniper? Throw in another 8 mils of holdover using the reticle and you are good to what 2,000 yards with a 308? Not good enough?

Either available light allows you to identify your target or it does not; I suspect your department's standards for such are not tied to an objective lens size.

 

[Phylodog]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So is there anyone here with a 44mm objective who uses it at night? Does it pass enough light for target ID on say a full moonlit night at 100 yards? </div></div>

I've got a 44mm objective on my SN3 and I've had it out on many night time operations. I've never felt like I needed a larger objective and have always been able to see sufficiently enough to get the job done.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, since when is erector travel beyond say 27 mils, the limit of the EREK knob, an issue for an LE sniper?</div></div>

Point taken. The only SWS where elevation was an issue was with the M82A1A when equipped with the Unertl 10x. IIRC we were limited to about 2400 yards because at that point the turret was maxxed on elevation and fine tune and holding at the end of the mil scale. I am not sure how much further you could engage before you were at the limit of the ability of Raufuss to penetrate a vehicle. Anywho, we are not talking about a SASR firing .50 BMG and I never had a reason to max out the holdover on the M40A1.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Either available light allows you to identify your target or it does not; I suspect your department's standards for such are not tied to an objective lens size. </div></div>

Ambient light is what it is. I cannot control it. What I seek to do is equip myself to maximize that nature gives me. With low quality optics the light transmission of the scope can drastically alter the ability to ID the target. I have not yet had a chance to work with a USO in low light so I am asking if the 58 offers an advantage over the 44. If it did not, then I would question why it is offered. There is no extra cost incurred with it so I can't see much of a drawback if it even offers a minute advantage. If there is no advantage due to other properties of the scope, then obviously I would want the lower objective.

This is why I am asking for real world end-user input. I can head-game it all day, but that may or may not have a grounding in reality.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got a 44mm objective on my SN3 and I've had it out on many night time operations. I've never felt like I needed a larger objective and have always been able to see sufficiently enough to get the job done. </div></div>

That is the kind of input I am looking for.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

The really scary point objective size-wise is that I've had a hard time getting my 44mm SN3 (moa/moa btw) to resolve itty bitty things at 100yds.
I just got an ST10 with the 37mm Ergo and I can actually make out detail (read little numbers and verify little shapes) better with the smaller objective at 10x than I can with the larger at 17X, go figure......

 

[glock24]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

The thread below might offer you some more insight. It helped me understand something about my 58mm that I couldn't accurately describe before;

Angular resolution

The math doesn't lie boys; lens diameter is where it's at . . .

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

That's kind of weird.

 

[glock24]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's kind of weird. </div></div>

Try this one instead. Page 5 is where I was enlightened;

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=931090&page=1

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thread below might offer you some more insight. It helped me understand something about my 58mm that I couldn't accurately describe before;

Angular resolution

The math doesn't lie boys; lens diameter is where it's at . . .

</div></div>

I believe it. In fact I have always felt that when folks compare brand x to brand y by simply setting the power at the same level they may be comparing how those 'look' but b/c of the objective difference they aren't really comparing the quality of the glass and coatings.

I have 40mm, 42mm, 44mm, 50mm and 56mm objectives. Without comparing quality of glass and coatings, small details 'look' better at 50mm and up on the same power setting.

YMMV

If *I* were to buy another USO, I'd probably buy a 3.2 - 17 x 58mm w/ 34 mm tube. I think the EREK is just smart design as well as anything MIL based with a 1/2 MIL hash.

Good luck

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

Well, I called Jeff today and put in my order for a 3.2-17x SN-3

44mm Objective
1/10 Mil EREK
1/10 Mil #3 M40 Windage
30mm Tube
GAP Reticle
Red Illumination

Now the waiting game commences. He quoted me 12 weeks.

 

[ajwcotton]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

Did you tell them you're Mil/LE?
Just wondering cause mine is being made right now and initially they told me that it would be about six weeks and the day it was supposed to be done I got a call from Becky, she said that the roof of the clean room collapsed and that they would be starting mine monday and I'm leaving on deployment in april. So hopefully mine will be done before i leave. Jeff is a great guy to deal with by the way.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

Yes, I told him I was a LEO.

He is good to go. He patiently listened to me thinking aloud and offered input on each of their options. I thanked them again for supporting the Match and giving me a chance to own one of these great scopes.

 

[djskit]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

Hey LoneWolfe - I'm still pretty new to the whole USO thing -
How is the one you ordered different from this one?

Midway USO

I just got one of these a couple of months ago (got here in a week!) and it sounds almost identical.

Someone help me out and tell me what I am missing.

 

[Luke]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

I would go with the 35mm tube just to offset that fricken huge 58mm objective. You'll end up with a scope looking like this thing otherwise

http://www.thisthatandeverything.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=DSD480548

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D-SKIT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How is the one you ordered different from this one?

Midway USO </div></div>

It's basically the same except I ordered the M40 #3 knob (more windage clicks per rev). I might have gone with the one from Midway if I didn't have a Gift Certificate for USO.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Luke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would go with the 35mm tube just to offset that fricken huge 58mm objective.</div></div>

I went with the 44mm objective and 30mm tube.

 

[Graham]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3.2-17x SN-3
44mm Objective
1/10 Mil EREK
1/10 Mil #3 M40 Windage
30mm Tube
GAP Reticle
Red Illumination
</div></div>Exactly the decision I would have made for you; and similar to the process I want through and what I chose: To begin working with Mil knobs after having been trained on a Mil reticle is second nature. A 30mm or 34mm tube beats 35mm because it's easier to get a better selection of rings/mounts and it's easier to re-sell the scope if need be. The GAP reticle beats the more complex Mil reticle for practical field use. 44mm is enough for practical night use under moonlight or street light at any power setting, and it allows for a lower mount on the rifle.

 

[McCrazy]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

Personally, I am glad to hear that you went with the 44mm OBJ and 30mm tube. I was never a fan of huge objective lenses.

I don't have specs for my USO build here with me right now but yours and mine are pretty similar, except I went with the zero stop and MPR reticle.

Was lucky and got to meet JBWIII as I sat around with Arnold and a buddy picking the options out. Looking forward to picking it up in person in a few weeks.

I'm sure you will love you scope. Very rare that anyone doesn't.

 

[Sumpter Steve]

Re: My SN-3 Configuration

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I called Jeff today and put in my order for a 3.2-17x SN-3

44mm Objective
1/10 Mil EREK
1/10 Mil #3 M40 Windage
30mm Tube
GAP Reticle
Red Illumination

Now the waiting game commences. He quoted me 12 weeks.

</div></div>

This is great news. It couldn't have been won by a nicer, more deserving guy. I hope to see ya again next year at the competition (ya know you always got a place to stay). Hopefully you will bring some of your fellow "SWAT" guys with ya. Take care. Steve.