After 3 firings of Nosler brass (6.5 creedmoor), I had 2 cases out of about 80 that has a crack right at the junction of the neck and shoulder going around the case about 1/4 of the way. Any ideas of what would cause that?
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Neck/ Shoulder cracking question
- Thread starter SWWI Shooter
- Start date
How are you re-sizing, neck only, full length or other? Be specific. Out of 500 pieces of new brass, I had to throw out 3 for visible vertical cracks but everything I've read about cracking, like your describing, indicates one of three things. The factory annealing wasn't carried down into the top of the case body, excess head space of the reloaded case or the brass has been excessively work hardened by a combination of hot loads and full length re-sizing.
My brother reloads for me so I asked him. He said he bump sizes them 2-3 thou. I annealed after the 3rd firing. Maybe I need to do it more often. Seems to me that the sharp shoulder on the 6.5 Creedmoor would require more frequent annealing than a 308 win. but what do I know.
I'm curious, normally you don't start 'bumping' back the shoulder until you've fired the cases enough times to fully expand them. For my .308, that was on the fifth firing. The first hand load should always be done with a full length die to make sure everything is straight. Subsequent reloads neck sized only, until the cases are fully expanded and you can feel it when closing the bolt. After which the shoulder bump operation is done each reload. During every reload, working up to the bumping, be sure to check case length and trim if necessary. The brass has a tendency to stretch/grow lengthwise most during the early part of the process. That case length can be critical and cause problems. If the case mouth starts to contact the end of the chamber. It will give a false feel that the shoulder is tight and cause excess pressure because the case mouth can't properly release the grip of the bullet. Additionally, if bumping the shoulder back repeatedly because the cartridge was too long, you absolutely end up with the kind of early case failures you've described.
Pics could be helpful, sounds like the neck is starting to separate from the shoulder.
It sounds like this vertical cracking isnt your issue. Vertical cracking like this image is caused from brass getting worked too much and becoming brittle and eventually it gets brittle enough that it splits when fired instead of stretching elastically.
Your description makes it sound like the crack is going 90 degrees from the image around the circumference of the neck liek this where you can see light through the neck.
If so I wouldnt think that the additional sizing of the brass thats .001" from fully grown brass is going to contribute to your necks cracking horizontally.
I would be more inclined to think that it is friction from inadequate lube that is keeping the neck from sliding into the die freely and instead tries to force the neck down into the shoulder or something to that extent. Maybe the neck being sized smaller way too far too causing the brass to stretch right there at the neck shoulder junction, that is more common when people turn down their case necks with a chamber thats wayy to big to require turning.
It sounds like this vertical cracking isnt your issue. Vertical cracking like this image is caused from brass getting worked too much and becoming brittle and eventually it gets brittle enough that it splits when fired instead of stretching elastically.
Your description makes it sound like the crack is going 90 degrees from the image around the circumference of the neck liek this where you can see light through the neck.
If so I wouldnt think that the additional sizing of the brass thats .001" from fully grown brass is going to contribute to your necks cracking horizontally.
I would be more inclined to think that it is friction from inadequate lube that is keeping the neck from sliding into the die freely and instead tries to force the neck down into the shoulder or something to that extent. Maybe the neck being sized smaller way too far too causing the brass to stretch right there at the neck shoulder junction, that is more common when people turn down their case necks with a chamber thats wayy to big to require turning.
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Weird. Could it just be a defective batch of brass or perhaps brass that may have been over-annealed at some point?
Few quick questions:
Few quick questions:
- Was failed Nosler brass brand new brass with three firings or was it Nosler brass of prior unknown history that was reloaded three times by your brother prior to failure?
- You mentioned annealing after third firing. Is it correct to assume the annealing was done after experiencing the above failures?
- If #2 above is true, have you experienced any additional failures on the fourth firing?
Might also be a chamber issue (though unlikely). If the neck of the chamber has a (chip) gouge/ring at the base of the neck (essentially rounding off the chamber in that area), then the brass would want to flow into the gap (which would not be able to be felt when closing the bolt). If the brass is trying to flow to fill the chamber, and springing back, then it would cause that part of the case to work harden much faster than any where else. Maybe someone got a little aggressive with polishing the chamber and rounded off that area(?)....
Without being able to physically inspect the brass and rifle, it's really hard to diagnose.
JMTCW...
Without being able to physically inspect the brass and rifle, it's really hard to diagnose.
JMTCW...
I bought the brass new, brother loaded 3 times and I fired 3 times in a Tikka CTR. I then was preparing to anneal it and noticed the cracks. I haven't fired it for a forth time (got busy with work and bow hunting) so I don't know if there will be more failures at this point.
Take some pics of a couple loaded rds in the same area. I may be on a fishing expedition.
Please see the requested pictures of both sides of a few rounds. These have been loaded 3 times (not fired the 3rd time).
The third one looks like it might have some cracking going on already? Could just as well be carbon deposits.
Other than what Ive mentioned already Im at a loss as to the cause though. At least its only 2 out of 80.
Other than what Ive mentioned already Im at a loss as to the cause though. At least its only 2 out of 80.
I checked and yes, it's just carbon. Thanks for your help. I'm going to anneal every other loading and see if that helps.
Thanks for taking the pics, I was thinking your die may have a ridge right at the shoulder-neck area where a chunk of the reamer that was used had broken off, not it. But by the pics, it looks like there is a line just below the shoulder-body junction? The left case, could be pic, looks rounded too. Are the shoulder angles the same from sized to fired?
You may have just won the lotto and got the shittiest lot of brass ever too. Not sure I can help, but I suspect your die.
Edit: Line below the shoulder looks like you are on the verge of rolling your shoulders.
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I don't know a lot about it (my brother loads for me) but I know I bought a Redding die set for him to use on them since he didn't have any 6.5 dies.
Just wondering if it's a bushing die, and perhaps a (faulty) bushing is inserted upside down, and possibly over working the neck or smacking into the case at the neck/shoulder junction.
Not that far low on the neck though.
The cases also dont look like they have been sized with a bushing die as they dont have the donut around the base of the neck as seen in the case to the right. His do have some carbon rings left about there but it doesnt look like a bushing bump.
Not saying the die or chamber isnt scratching, just doesnt look like a bushing it doing it.
@SWWI Shooter Ask your brother if it is a traditional full length sizer or a type s bushing die. Or look at the reciept if you have it since you ordered it for him to use.
The cases also dont look like they have been sized with a bushing die as they dont have the donut around the base of the neck as seen in the case to the right. His do have some carbon rings left about there but it doesnt look like a bushing bump.
Not saying the die or chamber isnt scratching, just doesnt look like a bushing it doing it.
@SWWI Shooter Ask your brother if it is a traditional full length sizer or a type s bushing die. Or look at the reciept if you have it since you ordered it for him to use.
More info to add to this post. I haven't shot this rifle since October due to bow hunting and work obligations but I took it out today again. I had the barrel shortened and wanted to see what effect that had on velocity. Well I shot it 6 times before I quit and 5 of 6 pieces of brass completely broke at the neck shoulder junction. Picture is attached. Yes, I was probably nuts to keep shooting it but I kept thinking it was a fluke. All the same load and rifle data as I posted above- I had these rounds loaded in August but hadn't shot them yet. This is just crazy. Any further thoughts on what might be causing it?
I hear what you're saying but I have 512 rounds through it and had 0 issues until the last 20 rounds. If it was the rifle why would it show up now?
Couple of things still not clear. Let me see if I understand... please confirm if following assumptions are true?
1. You had no issues with prior firings with other brass or factory loads.
2. You bought new brass which your brother reloaded and first firing went okay.
3. Your brother continued making your reloads and bumped back shoulders another couple of times and you started seeing some issues with cracking.
4. You annealed following third firing and brass was then sized and reloaded a fourth time prior to firing to total failure.
If above is correct, then your brass, perhaps was of dubious quality from the beginning and it’s condition may have been exacerbated by excessive bump back during reloading by your brother. Annealing to too hot a temperature could also go a long way towards wrecking your brass.
Good luck! Be very careful.
1) correct
2) Correct. Firings 1-2 went fine. Issues showed up only upon the 3rd firing.
3) Correct
4) Not correct- The brass failed on the 3rd firing. I did not anneal before the failure.
Throw the brass out. Go get Lapua, Peterson, or Hornady brass. Go shoot.
Wish I could go with Lapua but they just make small primer pockets which most people say is a no no in hunting situations (cold weather). I have a bunch of once fired Hornady which I will dig out and try.
But after the third firing you annealed and then the fourth firing resulted in having the multiple neck separations?
If so, I would concur and suggest you throw the rest of that brass out and confirm you are only bumping shoulders back the couple of thousands of an inch you think you are when resizing. Lastly, make sure you are not cooking (overheating) your brass when annealing.
Just another dumb-ass opinion but ... there is something weird here. I have been doing some sort of precision handloading for about 25 years and in all that time, I have shot off exactly one neck. It was 300 win mag with many-times-fired brass. You sent a picture of five pieces where you shot the neck off. I confess that I shoot brass until the primer pockets are too big or until I get incipient or partial head separations. Yes, I am a bad person for wearing out my brass but I do not get what you are getting. Either the brass itself is different or you are using a different process to convert fired brass into ammunition.
Button dies: when inserting the brass into the die, there is a force pushing the neck straight down into the case, simultaneously a force squeezing the neck to a smaller diameter and later a force pushing the shoulder toward the base of the case. The force squeezing the neck stops above the junction where your separations occur. The only force that might overstress that specific place is the first one. Maybe you could use more lube ? There is also a force reducing the case body diameter but that is lower than your fracture and it doesn't seem to relate.
I was contemplating, is the button too small? Maybe but it seems unlikely. When I do that, the neck is visually smaller-diameter at the top and larger near the neck/shoulder junction. When seating bullets, the upper part still looks a little smaller than the lower part. The extra fat shoulder helps to center the round in the chamber when I close the bolt.
Regular full length dies: sort of the same as above except the neck squeezing happens all the way to the junction where you are having trouble. Consider more lube. If you full-length-size and bump the shoulder at all, the neck/shoulder junction is being worked by the die. If the shoulder bump was too long, that would excessively work the neck/shoulder junction and - maybe - weaken it. I don't know, just thinking about all of the bending and squeezing going on in there. Suppose the shoulder was bumped too much, typically the firing pin strike looks kind of light and sometimes there are failure-to-fire events. It seems possible that the act of firing might expand the case neck into the chamber neck, lock in place, then the pressure shoves the brass backwards toward the bolt face breaking off the neck. Kind of a cool image but that seems really unlikely to me. Instead of the case tearing the neck off, the case body should lock to the chamber midwall and the big stretch would be just above the web. That is what I usually see - incipient or partial head separations. So pushing the shoulder too far back normally has different symptoms than shooting the necks off.
So, it seems weird. Suppose bad brass. "Bad" how? Too soft? To a shooter, "soft brass" means ductile, would it not just stretch a lot? Could it be too hard? When shooters say that brass is too hard, they really mean it is too brittle - that is what we see here, it is not stretching, it is fracturing. The composition could make the brass brittle or it could be work-hardened - in your case, fired too many time and not annealed. But it has only been fired 3 times. No way in Hell will firing brass three times work-harden it enough to do this. In the posts above I didn't see, was this new brass or did you buy "once fired" from someone? If "once fired" perhaps your correspondent can't count? If it was already work-hardened or had been mistreated then ... ? Bad composition? If Nosler shipped a batch of bad stuff, you COULD be the first guy to get it but if not, then it would have made a splash here. As a community we don't suffer in silence - we bitch about stuff.
I think that there is some missing information that would explain this. I think it is brittle and it is breaking but I cannot invent an explanation for how that could happen. Anybody? Buehler?
Button dies: when inserting the brass into the die, there is a force pushing the neck straight down into the case, simultaneously a force squeezing the neck to a smaller diameter and later a force pushing the shoulder toward the base of the case. The force squeezing the neck stops above the junction where your separations occur. The only force that might overstress that specific place is the first one. Maybe you could use more lube ? There is also a force reducing the case body diameter but that is lower than your fracture and it doesn't seem to relate.
I was contemplating, is the button too small? Maybe but it seems unlikely. When I do that, the neck is visually smaller-diameter at the top and larger near the neck/shoulder junction. When seating bullets, the upper part still looks a little smaller than the lower part. The extra fat shoulder helps to center the round in the chamber when I close the bolt.
Regular full length dies: sort of the same as above except the neck squeezing happens all the way to the junction where you are having trouble. Consider more lube. If you full-length-size and bump the shoulder at all, the neck/shoulder junction is being worked by the die. If the shoulder bump was too long, that would excessively work the neck/shoulder junction and - maybe - weaken it. I don't know, just thinking about all of the bending and squeezing going on in there. Suppose the shoulder was bumped too much, typically the firing pin strike looks kind of light and sometimes there are failure-to-fire events. It seems possible that the act of firing might expand the case neck into the chamber neck, lock in place, then the pressure shoves the brass backwards toward the bolt face breaking off the neck. Kind of a cool image but that seems really unlikely to me. Instead of the case tearing the neck off, the case body should lock to the chamber midwall and the big stretch would be just above the web. That is what I usually see - incipient or partial head separations. So pushing the shoulder too far back normally has different symptoms than shooting the necks off.
So, it seems weird. Suppose bad brass. "Bad" how? Too soft? To a shooter, "soft brass" means ductile, would it not just stretch a lot? Could it be too hard? When shooters say that brass is too hard, they really mean it is too brittle - that is what we see here, it is not stretching, it is fracturing. The composition could make the brass brittle or it could be work-hardened - in your case, fired too many time and not annealed. But it has only been fired 3 times. No way in Hell will firing brass three times work-harden it enough to do this. In the posts above I didn't see, was this new brass or did you buy "once fired" from someone? If "once fired" perhaps your correspondent can't count? If it was already work-hardened or had been mistreated then ... ? Bad composition? If Nosler shipped a batch of bad stuff, you COULD be the first guy to get it but if not, then it would have made a splash here. As a community we don't suffer in silence - we bitch about stuff.
I think that there is some missing information that would explain this. I think it is brittle and it is breaking but I cannot invent an explanation for how that could happen. Anybody? Buehler?
No- All failures were on the 3rd firing (All before I annealed). Given the failures on 3rd firing, I have not reloaded them a 4th time.
This has been forwarded to gunsmith section and is getting good!
The only other scenario I'm coming up with is the possibility of multiple problems causing the neck failures.
1.) Necks turned too far into the shoulders?
2.) Tight neck tension combined with excess head space from bump back?
3.) Loads too hot?
4.) Residual sizing lube left on the cases?
5.) If gas gun, gas block problem?
Cumulative effect of the above issues might have brought this on.
1.) Necks turned too far into the shoulders?
2.) Tight neck tension combined with excess head space from bump back?
3.) Loads too hot?
4.) Residual sizing lube left on the cases?
5.) If gas gun, gas block problem?
Cumulative effect of the above issues might have brought this on.
Will need to ask my brother that as I don't know. He is out coyote hunting tonight so don't think I will get an answer any time soon.
Thanks for your thoughts. My comments are below:
1) Didn't turn the necks
2) I'm going to check on the head space in the rifle and going to try to determine if cases were bumped back too far.
3) Could be I doubt if this is the problem as there are no other overpressure signs.
4) maybe.
5) It's a bolt.
I'm about to reload for my first 6.5 C, so I'm following this with the hope I can learn something. Is there any chance the neck is being sized down too far and the expander is opening it back up, overworking the area that's cracking?
This post was the original post on this subject but at someone's suggestion, I asked the same question on the gunsmith forum. It has taken on a new life over there and I'm getting confused trying to monitor/ answer two post on the same subject. That being the case, if anyone has questions/ comments on the subject I would appreciate it if you would post it on the other forum. Thanks! The link is below: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/cracking-cases-need-input.6922705/page-3#post-7486453
