neck tension vs accuracy

jbell

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jan 16, 2010
    7,531
    4,697
    46
    Jasper Arkansas
    I have been reloading for many years now and have developed what works for me, but I found something that I wanted to see if any one else has seen this. A friend of mine was having accuracy problems w/ a G A Precision rebareled 40xb. He is new to handloading and after several attempts he asked me to help. He gave me 100 peices of firred, prepped and primed lapua brass to work up a load for him. The brass was Lapua and the primers were 210gm, I knew he necksized the brass but I dont know what else he did. I could tell he had not champhered the mouths, but I decided to use the brass as to find out where the prob was. I measured the brass and found it was like all the thousands of peices of lapua .308 brass I have worked with before (very uniform). I loaded the 1st 50 pices and found when seating the rounds in the wilson seater (same he uses) the bullets went in the mouth hard (from what Im usedto)I didnot have his sizing die to check so I calculated the neck tension by measuring the brass and came up with about .0045-.005 in. I inspected the run out and it was good and no copper had been shaved from the bullets. I could not get any consistancy from these loads (unexplained flyers and in general poor accuracy). I loaded the 2nd 50 rounds and champhered the mouths this time and changed other aspects of the load, I had about the same results. I then had to size the brass I used my redding comp. neck die w/ a .336 bushing that gives me .0015 in or so neck tension. Everythng else was the same as before except I did trim all the brass to a uniform 2.005 in. I found the flyers were gone and the accuracy realy came back. Anyone else had this happen?
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    I donot have a chronograph, and my tension is one thousands and five tenthousands (.0015 in), I do wish I had a chrono. but never needed one would of been handy this time though.
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    jbell,i have tried different tensions with my 308,andwhen the neck tension was above 4 thsdths , the groups definitely opend up,now i just use two thsdths for all of our bolt guns,we have not run into any trouble so far.
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    What you have seen here is very typical of how neck tension works . If you lower the overall neck tension from excessive to adequate then what you are actually doing is reducing the case to case variations in neck tension .
    The closer you get to zero neck tension the less any case to case variation can possibly be.
    However we can't use zero neck tension so a compromise is found that does the job of holding the bullet at the lowest neck tension that is still suitable for the purpose that the ammo will be put to.
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    Thats what I have always beleved - just enough to keep the bullet from moving under recoil and loading. I do run more (not much) on self loaders. Thank you for your thoughts, I have just never tried heavy tension to see what it would do.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: DaleAGribble
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What you have seen here is very typical of how neck tension works . If you lower the overall neck tension from excessive to adequate then what you are actually doing is reducing the case to case variations in neck tension .
    The closer you get to zero neck tension the less any case to case variation can possibly be.
    However we can't use zero neck tension so a compromise is found that does the job of holding the bullet at the lowest neck tension that is still suitable for the purpose that the ammo will be put to.
    </div></div>

    +1...about 90%

    I have found that with ALMOST ALL powders need some neck tension to hold the bullet so the powder column can get a good ignition. Some powder, specifically ball type powders need a little more neck tension to get everything going good. Check when you clean, if you are using a ball type powder, and see if you are having a lot of unburned powder residue in the rifle. Or maybe on the bench around the muzzle. When I did my range inspections I placed an old white hand towel in the area of the muzzle and weighted it down so it didn't go flying off the bench. After each 5 round target I would note the powder kernels and shake it off.

    As much as I love Winchester primers, I found their powders are the hardest to get to burn. Or they were in 2004. The Vihtavouri powders were noticeably the easiest to ignite.
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    "I found the flyers were gone and the accuracy realy came back. Anyone else had this happen?"

    Yes, I came to it a different way but found the same. Those who think a high "neck tensios" is desirable are likely wrong.

    With a slight interference fit (which is what most folks mis-call "tension") of 1 to 1.5 thou, we can usually control powder ignition and burn rate by the seating depth.
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    Glad I found this thread. I have been using the same five pieces of brass and have noticed accuracy going from really good to not so good through successive firings. It seems as the brass hardens accuracy suffers. I am puzzled by this. Could it be caused by increased neck tension caused by loss of elasticity. I can usually get 3-4 firings with 1/4 to 3/8 in. groups. After that things start to open up. By the seventh firing groups are running around a min. I monitor the length of the cases so that is not the problem. Any ideas?
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What you have seen here is very typical of how neck tension works . If you lower the overall neck tension from excessive to adequate then what you are actually doing is reducing the case to case variations in neck tension .
    The closer you get to zero neck tension the less any case to case variation can possibly be.
    However we can't use zero neck tension so a compromise is found that does the job of holding the bullet at the lowest neck tension that is still suitable for the purpose that the ammo will be put to.
    </div></div>

    +1...about 90%

    I have found that with ALMOST ALL powders need some neck tension to hold the bullet so the powder column can get a good ignition. Some powder, specifically ball type powders need a little more neck tension to get everything going good. Check when you clean, if you are using a ball type powder, and see if you are having a lot of unburned powder residue in the rifle. Or maybe on the bench around the muzzle. When I did my range inspections I placed an old white hand towel in the area of the muzzle and weighted it down so it didn't go flying off the bench. After each 5 round target I would note the powder kernels and shake it off.

    As much as I love Winchester primers, I found their powders are the hardest to get to burn. Or they were in 2004. The Vihtavouri powders were noticeably the easiest to ignite.
    </div></div>

    +1 95 % . I did say ," However we can't use zero neck tension so a compromise is found that does the job of holding the bullet at the lowest neck tension that is still suitable for the purpose that the ammo will be put to".

    This covers all the reasons why some neck tension is required such as helping powder burning . I just did not want to launch into a whole big post that might be seen as off the subject a bit . However the resistance of the bullet in the bore is the main thing that determins the time / pressure curve because its a whole lot longer than the case neck.
    If a lot of unburnt powder is still in the bore you are better served by switching to a faster burning powder than higher neck tension if the neck tension is already adequate for the purpose . Excessive neck tension just raises other issues.
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Glad I found this thread. I have been using the same five pieces of brass and have noticed accuracy going from really good to not so good through successive firings. It seems as the brass hardens accuracy suffers. I am puzzled by this. Could it be caused by increased neck tension caused by loss of elasticity. I can usually get 3-4 firings with 1/4 to 3/8 in. groups. After that things start to open up. By the seventh firing groups are running around a min. I monitor the length of the cases so that is not the problem. Any ideas? </div></div>
    The fact is Augustus no one really knows for sure exactly what is going on in the chamber when you compare a fireformed new soft case to a work hardened case. We do know that a hard case will spring back more after expansion. Will resist expansion a bit more.
    Work hardening is not even so the neck area may get harder on one side than the other and this will vary from case to case also.
    So as the case hardens it produces more variations between case to case . How these variations affect accuracy is not well understood and I have heard many theories. It is not hard to think that a case neck that is uneven in its radial hardness will not seat a bullet as straight as it did before or even if it does seat straight will it release the bullet straight into the bore . There is a shock wave that travels along the case and chamber and into the barrel . Is there a difference in how a hard case reacts to a softer case ? There is a physical stretching however small of the case also? However just knowing that the case does loose some accuracy as it ages does help you take some evasive action such as annealing , neck turning , trimming , etc to keep them more consistant.
    Ofcourse different size cases and different designs react slightly differently but generally conform.
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    " However the resistance of the bullet in the bore is the main thing that determins the time / pressure curve because its a whole lot longer than the case neck."

    Country, you're correct of course, maybe it's bullet inertia more than resistance after it travels its own length in the bore tho. I just didn't have time to get far into it so I simplified my comment. 'Bout all that really can change with bullet "tension" or seating is a slight delay of movement during ignition.

    I think seating into or near the lands is more effective at helping early ignition than any dreamy hopes of better bullet alignment. But, I do know I've made mistakes in the past, once anyway, sooo...maybe not! ??
    wink.gif
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    One of the things I do know from making my own bullets is that concentricity and perfection of form is very inportant to a bullets potential accuracy.
    The jacket is the main limiting factor that you have the least control over. If the jackets are good and very even in thickness and concentricity then good bullets result.
    If a bullet enters the bore at an angle , that is the center line of the bullet is out of line with the center of the bore .
    Then the bullet is instantly put out of shape by a minute amount. The base is no longer perfectly square across the center axis of the bullet.
    So I belive it is very important to get the bullets starting into the bore as straight as possible . This could well be why a tight neck chamber shoots more accurately.
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    consistancy of bullet PULL is the key to long range accuracy. Bear in mind bullet seating forces do not correlate with bullet pull forces.
    Loading presses have a fairly large mechanical advantage and what feels very slight is actually a lot of force. To prove this to yourself put your finger between a seat die and a shell holder and place the amount of force you think is light with your other hand and see just how very little force on end of rod magnifies into discomfort on the finger under the die.
    For instance the M118 long range round calls for at least 10 pounds of bullet pull but the guys in the ammo business say 300 pounds is not excessive.
    I am sure guys have figured out what is best range but the guys that do such and found out aren't telling and I can't say as I blame them.
    The chronograph is money well spent in this endeavor.
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    Good Thread! Here's how I solved my neck tension issue with a basically off the shelf Remington 700 that has had the bolt trued:

    I use the Redding bushing competition die set. I measured the Laupua case and estimated the bushing I needed. I then bought one size up and one size down for a total of 3 bushings. Using the .338 bushing and 175MK's the bullet never tightened in the neck. Using .336 the bullet was tight neck sizing .100 down the case. That left the .337 bushing.

    I seat the bullet to .001 off the lands which equates to an exact measurement on the calipers using a comparator. I place the brass in my right hand and the bullet in my left pushing them together as hard as I can across my chest. I then remeasure...neck sizing to .150 down the case I can move the bullet .050.
    I repeat the sizing and seating until I can not seat the bullet any further by hand. At around .200 down the neck case is the point at which I can no longer seat the bullet. That's my final tension and I assume it to be water tight; however, I've never tested it.
    This method has yielded some pretty solid results:
    First shot cold and clean is 2800 fps.
    Second shot cold is 2700 fps.
    Third and subsequent shots are 2650 fps with ES of 14 and SD of 7.1.
    If anyone tries this method, let me know how it worked...thanks
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    Sir, if I had 150 fps spread from first to third shot, I would be looking for a severe problem. My goodness thats awful!!! Are you leaving a lot of oil or solvent after cleaning?
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    There's probably a couple of reasons for the 150 fps differential between cold/clean and less than cold/clean.

    I brush the bore with Hoppes #9, run a dry patch through it and store it. I sometimes (always) neglect to run another dry patch before firing. I also wonder if that .001 jump cold turns into a .002 jam after a couple rounds? I've never measured it with a residual chamber at more than a cold temperature.

    When I don't FS the brass, and I sort it correctly, I've shot much less than .5" groups @ 100yds; however, I do FS the brass because it consistently averages .5 ctc @ 100yds and I'd rather have 3 groups at .5 rather than one at .3 and another at .7 and so on. Even with the 150 fps differential, it still stays within the .5 ctc.

    Do you know what an average cold/clean differential is? Got any suggestions? Besides running another dry patch that is.
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">consistancy of bullet PULL is the key to long range accuracy. Bear in mind bullet seating forces do not correlate with bullet pull forces.
    Loading presses have a fairly large mechanical advantage and what feels very slight is actually a lot of force. To prove this to yourself put your finger between a seat die and a shell holder and place the amount of force you think is light with your other hand and see just how very little force on end of rod magnifies into discomfort on the finger under the die.
    For instance the M118 long range round calls for at least 10 pounds of bullet pull but the guys in the ammo business say 300 pounds is not excessive.
    I am sure guys have figured out what is best range but the guys that do such and found out aren't telling and I can't say as I blame them.
    The chronograph is money well spent in this endeavor.</div></div>
    Consistancy of bullet pull is important but its not the KEY to long range accuracy. There's a whole bunch of other things you have to do right also.
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boeger42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you know what an average cold/clean differential is? Got any suggestions? Besides running another dry patch that is. </div></div>

    Shooting a rock creek 21.5" barrel, cold/dirty bore, first shot will adv 35-40 fps faster than the following rounds. This is using 168's and 175's.
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    Thanks for that Niles. When the rain lets up I'll try cleaning, fire 3, store and shoot through the chrono with a cold unclean to see if the solvent is affecting the first shot? It's a 6.5 lb gun and that's actually the condition I hunt with it in anyway...
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    42, You should be staying around 30fps from cc to following rds. At 100 yds the deviation wont cause much if any grief; however, if you start stretching things out 150 fps ES will throw a kink in things. Anyway it is probably a good idea to foul the barrel before doing any serious marksmanship. Sounds like you got it running fine after fouling.
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I belive it is very important to get the bullets starting into the bore as straight as possible . This could well be why a tight neck chamber shoots more accurately. </div></div>

    What is your opinion on having the freebore at exactly the bullet diameter? The bullet is encapsulated by its own diameter, assumming the chamber is cut straight, will this allow the bullet to launch perfectly straight every time?
     
    Re: neck tension vs accuracy

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 81STFACP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So I belive it is very important to get the bullets starting into the bore as straight as possible . This could well be why a tight neck chamber shoots more accurately. </div></div>

    What is your opinion on having the freebore at exactly the bullet diameter? The bullet is encapsulated by its own diameter, assumming the chamber is cut straight, will this allow the bullet to launch perfectly straight every time?

    </div></div>

    That is an area that I am not sure about . I have not had a lot of experience making reamers . However there could be problems with copper fouling if the bullet fitted that tight . It can bulge a bit when it hits the lands from the force of the powder pushing it especially soft weak jackets. So maybe a ring of fouling might result.
    However a 1 degree throat angle seems better than a 2.5 degree angle in the 6 mm BR .
    I think that the risk is that making the bullet a tight fit is more potentialy dangerous as the bullet could be driven back into the case or pulled out and stay in the bore as fouling built up .
    Centering using the tight case neck is a safer and better option.
    However the Schutzen style rifles worked in a similar fashion to what you are saying but they are not around anymore .
    I would not say it will not work but I don't think its a reliable idea for all situations.