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Hunting & Fishing Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

R

redneckbmxer24

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    • Jan 15, 2005
    12,538
    9,808
    Gulf Coast, FL
    #1
    I'm in need for a good bullet for hunting with a subsonic 308. I'm using the hornady 180gr round nose now and as long as I can get a head shot they drop but twice now all I've had was a vital shot and both deer got away. Both times the shots were perfect and I watched the impact and heard the thwack but both times the deer were nowhere to be found. I don't want to wound anymore deer, I need a bullet that will give me the penetration to effectively kill a deer. I'm also tired of hiking 10+ acres looking for blood or a dead deer, I get no blood, hair or anything. I shot a fox with my load this weekend and didn't even get full penetration. On entrance the bullet neatly folded the hair into the entrance wound, not one piece of hair was on the ground.

    Those of you hunting with subs what bullet are you using and what kind of success are you having? Keep in mind I only have a 1:10 twist.
     
    #2
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    I always did real well with Hornady 220 rns. You might consider putting shots through the lungs the way archers and muzzleloaders do. That being said I've heard good things about Outlaw State Bullets.
     
    #4
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    Head shots or spine shots have worked very well for us. Through the lungs works out well from a tree stand but I don't like it for ground based shots. From a tree stand I can get enough angle to hit lungs but still have an exit low on the thoracic cavity and get good blood trail rate.

    I've used:

    30c:
    170, 190, 215, 220, 247 cast in soft to super hard

    44c:
    240RN, 300FP, and 460gr RNFP in super soft to super hard.

    The 460's are phenomenal, we haven't had a deer year which was not a clean pass through with a great blood trail.
     
    #5
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    Both shots where the deer were lost were heart/lung shots right through the side behind the shoulder. Both times I watched the impact so I'm certain that's where both bullets went. I would have taken a head or high shoulder shot but both were blocked by trees so I took what I had which was a perfect wide open view of the vital area. I'll try the 220's but I'm not going to hold my breath. Who knows though, they might do what I need them to.

    These 180's work great for headshots which is all I have used them for until recently. I was also really suprised when they didn't penetrate something as small as a fox.
     
    #6
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    DSCF5417.jpg

    Funny you should say that, I shot this fox last fall with the 220 rn that I used to shoot, great penetration. I like bohem's idea, big heavy cast bullets. I would think that the softer ones performed better, is that right bohem?
     
    #7
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    CBM-

    That's really cool shot you put together there!



    The soft bullets 'shroomed up very nicely, but the hard cast penetrate a lot better. Texas heart shots with full pass throughs from the 300 and 460gr 44's at subsonic speeds.

    Where the harder bullets worked better would be when you can afford to shoot THROUGH bone instead of worrying about placing the shot around it.

    The soft cast when throught didn't reliably result in a pass through. I can always count on the hard cast, even from the 220 and 247gr 30's to break both front shoulders and come out the other side.
     
    #10
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    I haven't been shooting them long, but accuracy hasn't been an issue. Me and bigsky23 were making hits at 480+ yds, they shoot better than I had hoped. My only conscern is how well they perform on the meat. I'm thinking of trying them out on a few "gifted" deer hams that should have been sniffed. Should be a pretty good test, and pics of the bullet will tell a lot.
     
    #14
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seuss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious, why are you going the subsonic route? </div></div>

    With a suppressor they're dead quiet, for certain situations that has benefits. Predator hunting is one particular situation where if you can drop one and the other animals within a mile don't hear a bullet crack there's a much better chance of shooting another or more.


    I've seen first hand when I shot a deer with a suppressed subsonic, the first round dropped 1. The other deer stood there and looked around like "WTF... ah, whatever" and went back to eating.

    If you live in a state that you can shoot 2 a day, that's fantastic performance.
     
    #15
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seuss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious, why are you going the subsonic route? </div></div>

    With a suppressor they're dead quiet, for certain situations that has benefits. Predator hunting is one particular situation where if you can drop one and the other animals within a mile don't hear a bullet crack there's a much better chance of shooting another or more.


    I've seen first hand when I shot a deer with a suppressed subsonic, the first round dropped 1. The other deer stood there and looked around like "WTF... ah, whatever" and went back to eating.

    If you live in a state that you can shoot 2 a day, that's fantastic performance. </div></div>

    Yep thats why I use it plus a few other reasons I won't discuss openly on a forum.

    I'll give the solids a try, any specific ones?

    Also do you have any problems with lead in the bore? I've never shot lead and copper jacketed bullets in the same rifle before. I've shot them in my 38 though and after I shoot leads and switch to jacketed bullets it shoots weird for about 20 rounds or so.
     
    #16
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    I don't have issues but I'm shooting gas checked bullets and keeping them slow. I've shot water quenched, gas checked, super-hard cast up to regular speeds, about 2500fps before issues showed up.

    The precision level is not there though and you're flirting with lead-fouling disaster so I just shoot standard bullets there.

    The heavy cast work great for cheap, subsonic use.

    Depending upon what caliber you're shooting Lehigh bullets makes a subsonic line that use a small caliber bullet as an expansion wedge in the nose.

    They're pricey, but for turning a 338 bullet into a 1000fps broadhead it's a helluva solution. I think that the 33's are the smallest that they make, but I'm basing that off of memory from about 2 years ago, take it with a grain of salt.
     
    #17
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    Here is an idea.....quit deer hunting subsonic. You certainly should not try it with bullets designed for 2.5 times the velocity that you are using. Try this rule of thumb. .....if you have to get on the internet and ask "why won't this work?" The you don't know enough about it to be trying it. The tacticool real live sniper excuse is no justification for senselessly wounding game.
     
    #18
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barrel Nut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is an idea.....quit deer hunting subsonic. You certainly should not try it with bullets designed for 2.5 times the velocity that you are using. Try this rule of thumb. .....if you have to get on the internet and ask "why won't this work?" The you don't know enough about it to be trying it. The tacticool real live sniper excuse is no justification for senselessly wounding game. </div></div>

    Because guys don't wound game with bad shots or pushing a bullet too fast for reliable use at supersonic speeds right?

    Learning about it happens in many ways, asking questions and advice from people who have been there and done it will get you information faster than trying to learn it all yourself first hand.

    It also allows those of us who have been there and done that to learn from others who've done it in a different manner, but nonetheless been successful.
     
    #19
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm in need for a good bullet for hunting with a subsonic 308. I'm using the hornady 180gr round nose now and as long as I can get a head shot they drop but twice now all I've had was a vital shot and both deer got away. Both times the shots were perfect and I watched the impact and heard the thwack but both times the deer were nowhere to be found. I don't want to wound anymore deer, I need a bullet that will give me the penetration to effectively kill a deer. I'm also tired of hiking 10+ acres looking for blood or a dead deer, I get no blood, hair or anything. I shot a fox with my load this weekend and didn't even get full penetration. On entrance the bullet neatly folded the hair into the entrance wound, not one piece of hair was on the ground.

    Those of you hunting with subs what bullet are you using and what kind of success are you having? Keep in mind I only have a 1:10 twist. </div></div>

    The only way to get a sub to expand properly is to cast your own, with "PURE" lead into a Hollow point mold. Even then, for every time, proper expansion, don't get 25* above the melt point when casting and the bullets must be slow cooled. You want no more than a 4 in hardness.

    You are not going to get a factory bullet to work for what you are trying to do. A 12 twist will do a 220 gr bullet depending on nose an tail design. I run a 187(my casting weight) Lyman #311332 that will do everything that needs or can be done with a sub no matter the venue or target.
    Some shots are best to pass on, but if your field-craft is up to snuff you can make your own luck.

    One word of caution, never ever use a Lyman gas check with a Can, as the Lyman is designed to separate from the bullet after it leaves the muzzle. Hornadys are designed to stay on via the grab ring they have built into them. I could never tell much difference between the two on target anyway.
     
    #20
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    Bohem,
    Not trying to cause a shitstorm, but the thread started w subsonics causing wounded and unrecovered deer, that's not good.
    Unless there's a compelling reason I don't see this. You're compounding (significantly imo) the chances for something to go wrong.
    My $0.02.
     
    #21
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    I agree that there is a reduced capability for killing an animal, however, like all hunting shots it comes down to bullet placement and bullet performance.

    If you're going to do it, do it right. The guy's asking about it because he's not satisfied with the results, nor should he be.

    The discussion is about how to do it successfully and improve performance and results. This isn't a discussion about how to kill a deer witha subsonic round from 500yd out, there are significantly more limitations involved when hunting with subsonic ammo. Much like hunting with a pistol.

    The muzzle energy of a 220gr RN at 1000fps from a 30c is no different than a 200gr bullet from a 10mm or 41 Mag revolver but the penetration of the longer, more slender bullet is higher.

    The precision capability of a suppressed rifle is also higher than a hand cannon.

    Yet we don't have such discussions about "needless wounding" when someone drops a deer with a pistol.

    This is one of those things where I'd respectfully suggest that the naysayers step back and think about the reality of the situation and how the bullet/wound mechanics work.
     
    #22
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barrel Nut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is an idea.....quit deer hunting subsonic. You certainly should not try it with bullets designed for 2.5 times the velocity that you are using. Try this rule of thumb. .....if you have to get on the internet and ask "why won't this work?" The you don't know enough about it to be trying it. The tacticool real live sniper excuse is no justification for senselessly wounding game. </div></div>

    Here's an idea... learn reading comprehension and use some common sense.

    Where did I ask why this isn't working? I stated that it isn't working and asked what does. Quite the contrary.

    I have my reasons for using subsonic rounds to hunt and the distances are less than 50 yards. As Bohem said it will penetrate every bit as good as a handgun round. I'm not trying to be some tacticool real life sniper, as I said I've got my reasons to use subsonics for deer. Don't like that? Well go play in traffic.

    I don't like wounding game any more than anybody else. Hence the whole reason I came in here and asked the question to figure out what would/could work if all I had was a body shot again.

    Thank's Bohem, and Gunfighter for the helpfull insight. I've got a few things to try now.
     
    #25
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Seuss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">am wondering how a hunting round w the tendency to fragment like a Ballistic Tip would perform, they're designed to expand at fairly low velocities? </div></div>
    I don't think they will perform at all. There is a huge difference between 2-3000 FPS and 1000. Might have to give it a try though?
     
    #26
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    The expansion is not the only mechanism working here, keeping the bullet in 1 piece and drilling a hole through the animal with huge penetration capability is important.

    The hard cast 30's that I've shot deer with don't need to expand in order to drill through 18" of soft tissue, a couple shoulder blades and destroy all the organs in between.

    The benefit to that over a conventional setup is that the slow velocity doesn't destroy the front 1/3 of the animal from hydrostatic shock.

    With two broken shoulders, 2 punctured lungs and usually a sliced up heart they don't go very far.

    The farthest "runner" that my dad and I have ever had from a subsonic shot was 125yd. She made it far enough to dive into the pines on the edge of my parents' property and left a good blood trail the whole way.

    The ballistic tips don't work as well as the stuff I'm using, the sharp nose on them slices through and creates a wound channel that tends to be self-closing IME. You must hit the vitals HARD to get a blood trail. If you're going to use that bullet take short range head or base of the neck shots. Make sure that the animal is going down immediately.

    A big, fat meplat with a short nose makes for a great hole drilling bullet; which is why I suggested above to turn the 210 Bergers backwards. No, they don't expand that way, but they do just drill right through and hit the lungs and vitals in a manner that asphyxiation happens quickly.

    Sam, I'll try to remember to bring along the 44cal that I mentioned above next time you'll be at a match, or some loaded rounds you can take a look at. Once you see them I think it'll change your outlook on the lethality that I'm sure of. Subsonics at the muzzle from a 220gr RN have about 500FPE, which is more than a full bore, HOT loaded 357mag does and it's getting up there with the DoubleTap 10mm ammo.

    From a heavy 44c bullet there's 1000FPE on tap and I have been unable to recover a bullet in 10years of hunting with them. They go through and don't have appeared to slow down much, phenomenal penetration and wound channel that's almost 1/2" across, the blood trail is always clear (unless I take a head shot, then it doesn't much matter anyway).
     
    #27
    Re: Need a good bullet for subsonic hunting

    Get a giraud trimmer
    Get the 30 cal metplat trimmer
    Set it up to take a lead round nose flat to the jacket.
    Now you have a flat point.

    Shooting those in a 300 blackout using modified 220gr Sierra's. kills much better than before modification.

    My last suppressed subsonic deer gun was an encore chambered in 45acp. Killed like Thor's hammer using 230gr XTP's.
     
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