Need help deciding on a precision rifle

[mike10]

Hey guys. I've saved up and I'm going to purchase a nice precision rifle. I would love some advice. I want the rifle to be in 300 Norma Mag. I might take the rifle on some hunts, but it will be almost exclusively for shooting steel at long range. Trying to keep the rifle at about $6k or under. Might shoot some factory ammo through it now and then, but I plan to mostly shoot hand loads. Here are the three rifles I am eyeballing.

1) Barrett MRAD: The reason I want this rifle is because Todd Hodnett thinks it's the best bolt action rifle in the world. He has praised its precision and modularity and has a dozen or so that he uses to teach students. So, my rationale is that if one of the best long range instructors in the world recommends the rifle so highly, who am I to to disagree? I don't know anything compared to Todd.

2) Barrett MRAD SMR: I don't necessarily need the folding stock or barrel interchangeability of the standard MRAD, and considering this is $2k cheaper than the standard MRAD, it just makes sense to maybe get this rifle. With the $2k in savings over the standard MRAD, I'm basically look at it as if I were getting a free suppressor. SMR is guaranteed to have the same precision shooting capabilities as the standard MRAD which I think is a .75 MOA guarantee on group sizes at 100 yards. My only concern with this gun is that I plan to put some serious rounds through it and when the barrel life is up, I'm not sure how easy it is to re-barrel one of these.

3) Custom Build: Based on a quote from Alamo Precision Rifles a few months ago, I think I could get a 30 inch Bartlien heavy contour barrel in a Defiance Deviant Tactical Action dropped into an Accuracy International AX Chassis for roughly $5k -- give or take a couple hundred. If any of you have seen Brandon's custom .338 Lapua Alamo Precision Rifle on the Texas Plinking youtube channel, that's sort of what I will be going for. Just like the SMR, this will have to be rebarreled once I burn through it which is a slight pain to deal with considering you can just keep an extra barrel on-hand if you have the MRAD and replace the burnt barrel in about 45 seconds by loosening two screws.

Thanks for any advice in advance.

 

[_Windrider_]

Do the MRAD. Not because TH said it’s the best but it’s a great choice. (I promise the AI is more better).

But the MRAD is a solid choice.

 

[The D]

You’ll find lots of love for AI rifles here so don’t be surprised when that gets floated as an idea.

As far as a custom build goes, this is just my opinion. Any action I started with would be something that accepts off-the-shelf prefit barrels.

 

[Ronws]

Just this morning , I found this video on the MRAD ASR MK22 in .300 Norma. Rang steel a long way away.

 

[Long Range 338]

Only go the AI, CADEX, DESERT TECH, MRAD route if you are set on the multi caliber use - yes I know it can be done with cutom actions also. All the factory options have the pros and cons. For a single caliber one off rifle, custom stuff allows complete personalization. You can always drop it into your favorite chassis to emulate the favorite factory option.

 

[Huskydriver]

AI or gtfo

You're welcome op

 

[kthomas]

What exactly are your objectives?

- is this your first precision rifle? If so, starting with a magnum like a .300NM or greater is not a great recipe for success. Plus it's way more costly to shoot.
- What ranges are you talking about? You need a lot of range to take advantage of something like .300NM. Short action cartridges are very capable at a mile given the right conditions.
- What kind of hunting are you going to do with this rifle?
- what are your preferences in a rifle? Do you want to change barrels at the range with ease? The ability to change barrels at home? Prefit availability? Trigger preference? Preference on bolt throw (60 vs 90°)? Preference on bolt cocking (50/50 vs 100/0)?
- does $6k budget include optics?

 

[mike10]

What exactly are your objectives?

- is this your first precision rifle? If so, starting with a magnum like a .300NM or greater is not a great recipe for success. Plus it's way more costly to shoot.
- What ranges are you talking about? You need a lot of range to take advantage of something like .300NM. Short action cartridges are very capable at a mile given the right conditions.
- What kind of hunting are you going to do with this rifle?
- what are your preferences in a rifle? Do you want to change barrels at the range with ease? The ability to change barrels at home? Prefit availability? Trigger preference? Preference on bolt throw (60 vs 90°)? Preference on bolt cocking (50/50 vs 100/0)?
- does $6k budget include optics?

Good questions. Here are my responses in order:

- This is not my first precision rifle, but this will be my first .30 cal precision rifle, and 300 Norma seems like one of my best options for flinging high BC .30 cal bullets fast.

- I want to shoot as far as I possibly can. Looking to go beyond a mile eventually to test the limits of the 300 norma. I'm not into short action cartridges for this build for a lot of different reasons including lower BCs and smaller splashes at distance to correct for misses.

- I have a hunting rifle, so if I ever took this custom rifle on a hunt, it would be a hunt without much hiking. I want a pretty heavy rifle because it will be primarily used for plinking steel at the furthest ranges I can touch.

- It's not a must, but I love the idea of Barrel Interchangeability because not only do I like the idea of being able to shoot smaller and bigger cartridges years down the road, but I also love the idea of having an extra 300 norma barrel on-hand so when I burn out the first barrel, I can just plop the new barrel in without having to leave the gun at a shop to be rebarreled. This is a huge reason I'm drawn to the MRAD.

- I'm happy with a 2ish pound trigger and I have no real preferences on bolt throw.

- $6k budget is rifle only.



Thanks,

Michael

 

[mike10]

AI or gtfo

You're welcome op

Which AI? Why should I go AI over a Barrett. Genuinely curious.

 

[Huskydriver]

Which AI? Why should I go AI over a Barrett. Genuinely curious.

Off the shelf ready to go components. Esp barrels... Any smith can make you an ai barrel and there are lots of stocking dealers. Imo better trigger. Ergos are subjective but I prefer ai's over the mrad.

Which ai depends on what your needs are

 

[mike10]

Off the shelf ready to go components. Esp barrels... Any smith can make you an ai barrel and there are lots of stocking dealers. Imo better trigger. Ergos are subjective but I prefer ai's over the mrad.

Which ai depends on what your needs are

Which AI do you have? That AXSR looks really nice.

 

[Huskydriver]

Which AI do you have? That AXSR looks really nice.

I have ran most of them prefer the axmc/axsr of I could only have 1

 

[kthomas]

Good questions. Here are my responses in order:

- This is not my first precision rifle, but this will be my first .30 cal precision rifle, and 300 Norma seems like one of my best options for flinging high BC .30 cal bullets fast.

- I want to shoot as far as I possibly can. Looking to go beyond a mile eventually to test the limits of the 300 norma. I'm not into short action cartridges for this build for a lot of different reasons including lower BCs and smaller splashes at distance to correct for misses.

- I have a hunting rifle, so if I ever took this custom rifle on a hunt, it would be a hunt without much hiking. I want a pretty heavy rifle because it will be primarily used for plinking steel at the furthest ranges I can touch.

- It's not a must, but I love the idea of Barrel Interchangeability because not only do I like the idea of being able to shoot smaller and bigger cartridges years down the road, but I also love the idea of having an extra 300 norma barrel on-hand so when I burn out the first barrel, I can just plop the new barrel in without having to leave the gun at a shop to be rebarreled. This is a huge reason I'm drawn to the MRAD.

- I'm happy with a 2ish pound trigger and I have no real preferences on bolt throw.

- $6k budget is rifle only.



Thanks,

Michael

Okay cool, thanks for the answers.

Some thoughts:

- .300NM is a great cartridge, especially for "intermediate" ELR distances. Not cheap to shoot, but nothing in ELR is. A great stepping stone if you want to start going further and further before jumping into a XL cartridge like a Cheytac.

- Every rifle is a "switch barrel" rifle with the right tools. I change shouldered barrels all the time at home, none of my rifles have a "quick change" function. All you need is an action wrench, barrel vice and torque wrench and 5 minutes of time. Easy to do yourself at home. Where quick change (QC) systems excel is when you want to change out barrels when at the range, or to quickly pull a barrel for barrel cleaning (if you prefer to clean without the barrel attached to the action). Whether you actually need or would benefit from a QC system is up to you, but they certainly aren't necessary to change out barrels.

- You mention wanting the ability to swap between larger and smaller cartridges down the road. On a .338LM bolt face, .300NM is about as small as you go (unless you neck down that cartridge to a 7mm - which is fine if you want to go through barrels like underwear). So if you do want this capability, make sure you pick an action that has the ability to swap bolts or bolt heads that can do smaller cartridges, not all .338LM/Norma actions have this ability. This is where systems like the AI, Cadex and Barrett generally shine, though these systems all have their own nuances.

 

[moosemeat]

You should definitely shell out another $3000 for a AXSR over a MRAD cause it's easier to get barrels....

You can build a full Mongo custom for $6000, in a AX chassis and have quick change barrels, atleast to the extent you would need and like. Do that or MRAD. Cause AI thinks their stuff is magic.

 

[kthomas]

You should definitely shell out another $3000 for a AXSR over a MRAD cause it's easier to get barrels....

You can build a full Mongo custom for $6000, in a AX chassis and have quick change barrels, atleast to the extent you would need and like. Do that or MRAD. Cause AI thinks their stuff is magic.

Barrett being transferred to Aussie ownership may further complicate getting barrels in the future. That's already a big downside for the MRAD rifles, and that sourcing may just get worse in the future.

The AXSR is a very versatile rifle (if you get along with AI's nuances), but well past the OP's budget.

 

[moosemeat]

Kratos action $1550
Spare Bolt in what ever- $550
300 Norma Barrel - $750
Spare Barrel in what ever $750
Trigger $300

Leaves $2100 for chassis and axillary components and any extra work. Just one option. In 2 calibers....

 

[schmi015]

Barrett being transferred to Aussie ownership may further complicate getting barrels in the future. That's already a big downside for the MRAD rifles, and that sourcing may just get worse in the future.

The AXSR is a very versatile rifle (if you get along with AI's nuances), but well past the OP's budget.

Naw man, all the guys I know that work at Barrett say they're ramping up production.

 

[CK1.0]

Nowadays, when one can pretty much do everything they need to in their garage/basement, and on their own without ever needing a gunsmith... I don't know why one wouldn't go custom and put it together themselves (IMO that's half the fun).

Though with that said, I've shot more than a few MRADs and AIs... and don't really get it at all.

 

[mike10]

A lot of you guys almost convinced me on the AI AXSR. I really really really like that gun and later down the road, I might get one. I mean, I'm seeing guys turn out 5 shot groups and even 10 shot groups with that AI AXSR with factory ammo that are literally between a quarter minute and half minute. To say it is a half-minute rifle seems almost insulting hahaha.

However, getting an AI AXSR is tough for me to justify right now because after taxes I'm at about $11k for just the naked rifle which is what it would cost for me an MRAD, Nightforce ATACR 7-35 with a mount, and Barrett AM338 suppressor.

Looks like the MRAD it is.

I'm really excited to get one after watching an instagram clip of Bryan Litz dropping about a 1.5 inch group at 300 yards with his stock MRAD in 300 Norma. Litz won the 2021 Nightforce ELR Challenge with his MRAD and has always said his MRAD is a shooter. Litz is all about retaining zero and having accuracy over chasing excessive precision and he swears by the MRAD/Nightfoce combo as both an accurate and precise platform.

I'll admit, the MRAD seems clunky and less refined than that AI AXSR, but functionality does not seem to be lacking in the least. The fact that SOCOM and almost every military brach is adopting it as the MK22 further lends credibility to the MRAD as a tough, reliable, and capable system.

So, with feedback from guys here on the Hide, along with guys at the pinnacle of long range shooting like Bryan Litz and Todd Hodnett swearing by the MRAD, I think it's my best option at this point in my life.

Thanks for all your input. I'll post pictures and some groups a few months down the road once I have it all in-hand.

 

[mike10]

No matter what you get I am interested to hear your experience, where you bought from, what the purchase experience was like and out the door cost?????

No matter which you end up with sounds like you will be having a lot of fun burning through powder!

Good Luck!

Thanks, I appreciate it! Months down the road I'll try to post some pictures and give feedback on it.

 

[CK1.0]

The US military adopting a gun doesn't really mean dick, please don't let that sway you or influence your decision.

IMHO, having shot them quite a bit, an MRAD is like a "really nice RPR", that's it, and an AI is arguably an even nicer (or at least even more expensive) RPR. Neither will achieve what you'd get by dropping a top-shelf BA into a top-shelf stock/chassis with a top-shelf trigger... even if you think I'm full of shit, you should try to demo/shoot one before dropping that much coin.

Good luck.

 

[mike10]

The US military adopting a gun doesn't really mean dick, please don't let that sway you or influence your decision.

IMHO, having shot them quite a bit, an MRAD is like a "really nice RPR", that's it, and an AI is arguably an even nicer (or at least even more expensive) RPR. Neither will come close to what you'd get by dropping a top-shelf BA into a top-shelf stock/chassis with a top-shelf trigger... even if you think I'm full of shit, you should try to demo/shoot one before dropping that much coin.

Good luck.

I partly agree and partly disagree with what you just said about the military's adoption of a rifle.

It's true that there are guys who think that if the military adopts a rifle, that means the rifle has to be the best rifle in the world. This is just ridiculous. There are all sorts of mediocre rifles that have made it into the military.

It's also true that the meeting military minimum standards during testing does mean something. The fact that the MRAD passed military torture tests, had to perform with at least 1 MOA accuracy with .300 Norma Mag factory ammo at 300 yds during testing, and so forth definitely means something. Like I'm not sure how anyone can say that that means nothing.

I think the truth is somewhere between when it comes to purchasing a rifle because the military has adopted it.

That said, in the case of the MRAD, I put a lot of stock into what guys like Todd Hodnett, Bryan Litz, and Kevin Owens say and those dudes all swear by the MRAD.

I think you're right about top-shelf customs by the way. The quality and customizability of top-shelf customs is not something I'm going to dispute.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[kthomas]

I partly agree and partly disagree with what you just said about the military's adoption of a rifle.

It's true that there are guys who think that if the military adopts a rifle, that means the rifle has to be the best rifle in the world. This is just ridiculous. There are all sorts of mediocre rifles that have made it into the military.

It's also true that the meeting military minimum standards during testing does mean something. The fact that the MRAD passed military torture tests, had to perform with at least 1 MOA accuracy with .300 Norma Mag factory ammo at 300 yds during testing, and so forth definitely means something. Like I'm not sure how anyone can say that that means nothing.

I think the truth is somewhere between when it comes to purchasing a rifle because the military has adopted it.

That said, in the case of the MRAD, I put a lot of stock into what guys like Todd Hodnett, Bryan Litz, and Kevin Owens say and those dudes all swear by the MRAD.

I think you're right about top-shelf customs by the way. The quality and customizability of top-shelf customs is not something I'm going to dispute.

Thanks for your comments.

Keep in mind a lot of military procurement requirements are arbitrary and written by people who know jack shit about precision rifles.

To @CK1.0's point, a custom rifle made with top notch components will definitely exceed 1 MOA at 300 yards and be more than durable enough for anything you can throw at it.

You can configure a custom rifle to your exact specifications, if you know what you are doing it's like a custom tailored suit specifically for you. An AI or Barrett is like an off the rack suit, it may fit okay but it's very unlikely to fit you perfectly. This is the benefit of a custom rifle.

The Barrett is a great rifle, I certainly wouldn't talk you out of one if your mind is set on it. I shot one once and it was pretty nice, but would never in a lifetime trade my custom .300NM for one.

 

[mike10]

Keep in mind a lot of military procurement requirements are arbitrary and written by people who know jack shit about precision rifles.

To @CK1.0's point, a custom rifle made with top notch components will definitely exceed 1 MOA at 300 yards and be more than durable enough for anything you can throw at it.

You can configure a custom rifle to your exact specifications, if you know what you are doing it's like a custom tailored suit specifically for you. An AI or Barrett is like an off the rack suit, it may fit okay but it's very unlikely to fit you perfectly. This is the benefit of a custom rifle.

The Barrett is a great rifle, I certainly wouldn't talk you out of one if your mind is set on it. I shot one once and it was pretty nice, but would never in a lifetime trade my custom .300NM for one.

I agree. I'll go custom at some point.

I also agree that often a lot of military procurement requirements are arbitrary and written by people who know jack shit about precision rifles.

However, I think this time around was a little different because the guy who headed up the specs and trials for a new military precision rifle is former Green Beret Sniper, Kevin Owens. During the adoption process, Kevin seems to have kept the focus for a new rifle exclusively based on operator feedback as opposed to arbitrary requirements.

 

[Ronws]

On the topic of military adopting a weapon, I agree that it does not mean it is the best rifle for everything or even the best rifle. If I understand correctly, it means that it has passed a number of tests of durability and reasonable accuracy. For example, of the snipers I have read and studied, their objective was to get a round into approximately a 20 inch by 24 inch target out to a few hundred yards. In fact, most active engagements were less than 600 yards. Especially in urban settings.

That was the reason, if I remember correctly for military ammo being loaded differently in order to withstand the extreme temperature differences encountered in the field. Modernly, you could be in the freezing mountains of Afghanistan or in the dusty and hot sandbox of Iraq where you get that not-so-fresh feeling and that not-so-fresh smell.

So, yeah, if 1 MOA rifle was deemed acceptable, that does not mean it is the best.

That being said, and this may be me being stupid, I was drawn to the .308 because of the military use of it. I figured if it worked on enemy agents, it should work fine on deer, which is my primary use for a rifle.

 

[kthomas]

I agree. I'll go custom at some point.

I also agree that often a lot of military procurement requirements are arbitrary and written by people who know jack shit about precision rifles.

However, I think this time around was a little different because the guy who headed up the specs and trials for a new military precision rifle is former Green Beret Sniper, Kevin Owens. During the adoption process, Kevin seems to have kept the focus for a new rifle exclusively based on operator feedback as opposed to arbitrary requirements.

The Barrett is a good rifle, I'm not trying to talk you out of your decision. I'm sure you'll be happy with it.

I personally don't put much stock in what the military uses and wants, as bureaucracy aside, they have different objects than myself and the vast majority of target shooters that manifests into the design of the rifle. Usually compromises made to meet military objectives come to the detriment of what you or I would be using the rifle for. But some people are okay with those trade-offs.

That said, if you want the Barrett, get the Barrett. It's a great rifle, many people are happy with it. I bet you will be too.

 

[mike10]

On the topic of military adopting a weapon, I agree that it does not mean it is the best rifle for everything or even the best rifle. If I understand correctly, it means that it has passed a number of tests of durability and reasonable accuracy. For example, of the snipers I have read and studied, their objective was to get a round into approximately a 20 inch by 24 inch target out to a few hundred yards. In fact, most active engagements were less than 600 yards. Especially in urban settings.

That was the reason, if I remember correctly for military ammo being loaded differently in order to withstand the extreme temperature differences encountered in the field. Modernly, you could be in the freezing mountains of Afghanistan or in the dusty and hot sandbox of Iraq where you get that not-so-fresh feeling and that not-so-fresh smell.

So, yeah, if 1 MOA rifle was deemed acceptable, that does not mean it is the best.

That being said, and this may be me being stupid, I was drawn to the .308 because of the military use of it. I figured if it worked on enemy agents, it should work fine on deer, which is my primary use for a rifle.

Military sniper precision standards have changed a lot. For the longest time, the .308 was the primary rifle used by snipers to engage personnel. New rounds in the 90s and early 2000s like the .338 Lapua started to be picked up a little bit, but there were still a ton of soliders trying to engage enemy combatants with the .308 during the WOT.

You can imagine how that went. You're at 9000 feet above sea level in Afghanistan staring across a 1700 meter canyon at a line of enemy combatants that are angled 40 degrees below you on the opposite side of the canyon and all you got is a .308 which traditionally only has a max effective range of about 800 meters.

Afghanistan really opened the military's eyes as to the need for more capable and modernized long range anti-personnel sniper systems.

The military upgraded to 300 win mag in about 2010 and now the military has made a shift toward 300 Norma and 300 PRC which get you a max effective range of roughly 1600 meters although in some conditions 2000 meters is reasonably achievable. Precision standards are way more insane nowadays than the 20x24 inch plate out to 600 yards with a .308 back in the day.

If I remember right, during these recent trials 3 inch groups at 300 yards was the cutoff, so the MRADs needed to produce closer to 1.5 inch groups at 300 yards to be on the safe side and not fail out of the trials.

The reality is, that's plenty for anti-personnel engagements too. A 300 norma/300 prc sub-moa rifle -- and I mean a true sub-moa rifle that can turn out like 10-round or 20-round groups at or under an inch at 100 yards and not just these 2-round groups or 3-round groups guys are shooting these days -- can easily reach out and kill beyond 1000 meters. Even out past a mile your hit probability on a man-sized target is fairly high with good wind calls assuming a true sub-moa rifle.

.308 is a great round and for some applications like deer hunting is all some guys might need.

However, it is crazy how far long range precision shooting has come in the last two decades.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

For another $500-$1000 so you can snag a lightly used AXMC which I'd take over any of those options.

 

[Long Range 338]

A lot of you guys almost convinced me on the AI AXSR. I really really really like that gun and later down the road, I might get one. I mean, I'm seeing guys turn out 5 shot groups and even 10 shot groups with that AI AXSR with factory ammo that are literally between a quarter minute and half minute. To say it is a half-minute rifle seems almost insulting hahaha.

However, getting an AI AXSR is tough for me to justify right now because after taxes I'm at about $11k for just the naked rifle which is what it would cost for me an MRAD, Nightforce ATACR 7-35 with a mount, and Barrett AM338 suppressor.

Looks like the MRAD it is.

I'm really excited to get one after watching an instagram clip of Bryan Litz dropping about a 1.5 inch group at 300 yards with his stock MRAD in 300 Norma. Litz won the 2021 Nightforce ELR Challenge with his MRAD and has always said his MRAD is a shooter. Litz is all about retaining zero and having accuracy over chasing excessive precision and he swears by the MRAD/Nightfoce combo as both an accurate and precise platform.

I'll admit, the MRAD seems clunky and less refined than that AI AXSR, but functionality does not seem to be lacking in the least. The fact that SOCOM and almost every military brach is adopting it as the MK22 further lends credibility to the MRAD as a tough, reliable, and capable system.

So, with feedback from guys here on the Hide, along with guys at the pinnacle of long range shooting like Bryan Litz and Todd Hodnett swearing by the MRAD, I think it's my best option at this point in my life.

Thanks for all your input. I'll post pictures and some groups a few months down the road once I have it all in-hand.

Enjoy your choice and make sure to come back and brag. The MRAD is a great rifle, regardless of whether the rest of us would prefer something different. I've got an MRAD with a 338LM barrel that is an absolute hammer and enjoy shooting it along with my other rifles. The AI is more refined but not necessarily better. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

When you have rifles designed for multi cal use that you can pull and reinstall the barrel between shots on one and shoot 1/4 MOA groups and the other you pull and reinstall the barrel and have to rezero, one is absolutely better than the other. I had an MRAD and liked it alright but it's no AI and theres no arguing that AI has flawless return to zero.

 

[Ronws]

Military sniper precision standards have changed a lot. For the longest time, the .308 was the primary rifle used by snipers to engage personnel. New rounds in the 90s and early 2000s like the .338 Lapua started to be picked up a little bit, but there were still a ton of soliders trying to engage enemy combatants with the .308 during the WOT.

You can imagine how that went. You're at 9000 feet above sea level in Afghanistan staring across a 1700 meter canyon at a line of enemy combatants that are angled 40 degrees below you on the opposite side of the canyon and all you got is a .308 which traditionally only has a max effective range of about 800 meters.

Afghanistan really opened the military's eyes as to the need for more capable and modernized long range anti-personnel sniper systems.

The military upgraded to 300 win mag in about 2010 and now the military has made a shift toward 300 Norma and 300 PRC which get you a max effective range of roughly 1600 meters although in some conditions 2000 meters is reasonably achievable. Precision standards are way more insane nowadays than the 20x24 inch plate out to 600 yards with a .308 back in the day.

If I remember right, during these recent trials 3 inch groups at 300 yards was the cutoff, so the MRADs needed to produce closer to 1.5 inch groups at 300 yards to be on the safe side and not fail out of the trials.

The reality is, that's plenty for anti-personnel engagements too. A 300 norma/300 prc sub-moa rifle -- and I mean a true sub-moa rifle that can turn out like 10-round or 20-round groups at or under an inch at 100 yards and not just these 2-round groups or 3-round groups guys are shooting these days -- can easily reach out and kill beyond 1000 meters. Even out past a mile your hit probability on a man-sized target is fairly high with good wind calls assuming a true sub-moa rifle.

.308 is a great round and for some applications like deer hunting is all some guys might need.

However, it is crazy how far long range precision shooting has come in the last two decades.

Yeah, and when SOCOM got the MRAD with Norma, a retired sniper wondered why that was. At the time, .300 WM, which was his caliber in service, and .308 and .338 LM were still prevalent and effective.

Another sniper who's book I have read carried in service the SR-25 (Mk11 Mod 0) which is a 7.62X51 mm NATO semi-auto. And he was effective, too. His first assignment under the direction of a sniper team leader, that leader had a .300 WM that would jam.

But the military can make weird decisions. Like the Marines doing away with the specific sniper training and just expect the best shot in a platoon, I guess, to be the designated marksman for overwatch and special assignments.

Chiden will get us into another war and the Marines will bring back the sniper program.

 

[mike10]

Yeah, and when SOCOM got the MRAD with Norma, a retired sniper wondered why that was. At the time, .300 WM, which was his caliber in service, and .308 and .338 LM were still prevalent and effective.

Another sniper who's book I have read carried in service the SR-25 (Mk11 Mod 0) which is a 7.62X51 mm NATO semi-auto. And he was effective, too. His first assignment under the direction of a sniper team leader, that leader had a .300 WM that would jam.

But the military can make weird decisions. Like the Marines doing away with the specific sniper training and just expect the best shot in a platoon, I guess, to be the designated marksman for overwatch and special assignments.

Chiden will get us into another war and the Marines will bring back the sniper program.

I believe the Marine Corps just replaced all their legacy M40A6 and Mk13 Mod 7 bolt-action sniper rifles with Mk22 Barrett.

 

[Ronws]

I believe the Marine Corps just replaced all their legacy M40A6 and Mk13 Mod 7 bolt-action sniper rifles with Mk22 Barrett.

And that may work for them. I used to make the joke that military intelligence was an oxymoronic statement. But really, maybe they just want a change.

Are these newer rounds going to be better?

Again, as I mentioned before or in another thread, Ryan Cleckner, formerly of the Rangers 1/75, got into .300 PRC and feels that the military should adopt that as the average, as it were, long distance rifle. It holds well in the wind and has lots of energy. The downside is the recoil impulse. I do believe it is sharper than that of a .308 W.

 

[mike10]

And that may work for them. I used to make the joke that military intelligence was an oxymoronic statement. But really, maybe they just want a change.

Are these newer rounds going to be better?

Again, as I mentioned before or in another thread, Ryan Cleckner, formerly of the Rangers 1/75, got into .300 PRC and feels that the military should adopt that as the average, as it were, long distance rifle. It holds well in the wind and has lots of energy. The downside is the recoil impulse. I do believe it is sharper than that of a .308 W.

Yeah I'm aware Ryan Cleckner is a huge .300 PRC fan from some articles I've read. I think the Barrett fully loaded with an optic and bipod is somewhere in the 21-22 pound range so even if I were shooting a 300 magnum like the 300 PRC, I wouldn't worry much about the recoil impulse hahahah

 

[Ronws]

Yeah I'm aware Ryan Cleckner is a huge .300 PRC fan from some articles I've read. I think the Barrett fully loaded with an optic and bipod is somewhere in the 21-22 pound range so even if I were shooting a 300 magnum like the 300 PRC, I wouldn't worry much about the recoil impulse hahahah

True and he doesn't. I think he even hunts with it. It has become "his" round. We all do that, sometimes. Get a cartridge we like that scratches our itch and think it will work for everything.

 

[Brym427]

While i do love my axsr. May i also recommend tactical operations. Service is second to none. Mikes rifles are functional tactical art. I have just as much pride saying i own tacops as i do saying I own ai's

 

[TylerN]

A lot of you guys almost convinced me on the AI AXSR. I really really really like that gun and later down the road, I might get one. I mean, I'm seeing guys turn out 5 shot groups and even 10 shot groups with that AI AXSR with factory ammo that are literally between a quarter minute and half minute. To say it is a half-minute rifle seems almost insulting hahaha.

However, getting an AI AXSR is tough for me to justify right now because after taxes I'm at about $11k for just the naked rifle which is what it would cost for me an MRAD, Nightforce ATACR 7-35 with a mount, and Barrett AM338 suppressor.

Looks like the MRAD it is.

I'm really excited to get one after watching an instagram clip of Bryan Litz dropping about a 1.5 inch group at 300 yards with his stock MRAD in 300 Norma. Litz won the 2021 Nightforce ELR Challenge with his MRAD and has always said his MRAD is a shooter. Litz is all about retaining zero and having accuracy over chasing excessive precision and he swears by the MRAD/Nightfoce combo as both an accurate and precise platform.

I'll admit, the MRAD seems clunky and less refined than that AI AXSR, but functionality does not seem to be lacking in the least. The fact that SOCOM and almost every military brach is adopting it as the MK22 further lends credibility to the MRAD as a tough, reliable, and capable system.

So, with feedback from guys here on the Hide, along with guys at the pinnacle of long range shooting like Bryan Litz and Todd Hodnett swearing by the MRAD, I think it's my best option at this point in my life.

Thanks for all your input. I'll post pictures and some groups a few months down the road once I have it all in-hand.

Give @MOUNTIC a call and see what he can do for you with the AXSR if your not dead set on the MRAD. Not being reliant on Barrett barrel extensions is one strong selling feature and you might find the price delta isn't exactly what you listed.

 

[schmi015]

And that may work for them. I used to make the joke that military intelligence was an oxymoronic statement. But really, maybe they just want a change.

Are these newer rounds going to be better?

Again, as I mentioned before or in another thread, Ryan Cleckner, formerly of the Rangers 1/75, got into .300 PRC and feels that the military should adopt that as the average, as it were, long distance rifle. It holds well in the wind and has lots of energy. The downside is the recoil impulse. I do believe it is sharper than that of a .308 W.

The military had to decide between 300 prc and 300 norma. Navy had been testing the PRC and Army and other the Norma. The prc didn't offer enough improvement from 300 win mag where as the Norma had more velocity. That and its going to have a commonality with .338 norma brass was enough for the navy to accept the 300norma. That difference in neck brass dimensions allows a cost savings in the sense of bulk purchases. The importance of 338 norma in the mrad is that will be the payload round, basically a scaled down mk211 raufoss if you will. So for the mrad the services will have a mid-range gas gun in 6.5cm with an effective range of 12-1400yds and the mrad in .338 norma, 300 norma and 7.62(for training and ranges that are limited in the range fan)

 

[Ronws]

The military had to decide between 300 prc and 300 norma. Navy had been testing the PRC and Army and other the Norma. The prc didn't offer enough improvement from 300 win mag where as the Norma had more velocity. That and its going to have a commonality with .338 norma brass was enough for the navy to accept the 300norma. That difference in neck brass dimensions allows a cost savings in the sense of bulk purchases. The importance of 338 norma in the mrad is that will be the payload round, basically a scaled down mk211 raufoss if you will. So for the mrad the services will have a mid-range gas gun in 6.5cm with an effective range of 12-1400yds and the mrad in .338 norma, 300 norma and 7.62(for training and ranges that are limited in the range fan)

That makes sense to me. More sense now. I watched a video a few years ago when it first came out for SOCOM. One of the guys who designed specs for the proposal was a retired special forces soldier. First, he was in the Irish Army special forces. Then, he moved to America and got in the SF here. His reasoning for supporting the Norma was that, while .308 was good for training and is easily available and was in the contract to be there, the .300 Norma was better for deployment use for enemy interdiction. And the .338 Norma to be used as a materials round when you want to shoot into a small building or a jeep engine. Blow up or leak some fuel tanks at a distance.

Thanks for that reply.

 

[Flyperk]

Since it’s been a couple of months from the last post, I’m curious, did you buy one? Which one? If you’ve shot it, are you happy with your choice Or would you like to choose again?
I know, a lot of questions but I am going down the same road and hope to use others experience to minimize my errors. Bad choices are not foreign to me so and info would be helpful….
Thanks again

 

[mike10]

Since it’s been a couple of months from the last post, I’m curious, did you buy one? Which one? If you’ve shot it, are you happy with your choice Or would you like to choose again?
I know, a lot of questions but I am going down the same road and hope to use others experience to minimize my errors. Bad choices are not foreign to me so and info would be helpful….
Thanks again

I got a used Barrett MRAD chambered in 300 PRC from a guy here on the Hide

It’s the newest MK22 generation.

I haven’t shot it yet, but I’ll let you know when I do.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I believe the Marine Corps just replaced all their legacy M40A6 and Mk13 Mod 7 bolt-action sniper rifles with Mk22 Barrett.

Nieyt. They will eventually but they are going to be one of the last branches to get their. It's going to take like 10 years to field these at current pace. SOCOM then regular army/marines/af/cg.

I was just chatting with the NCOIC of the quantico schoolhouse a few weeks ago about this. Ironically we were finger fuckinn a cool guys issue mk22 at the time.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

That makes sense to me. More sense now. I watched a video a few years ago when it first came out for SOCOM. One of the guys who designed specs for the proposal was a retired special forces soldier. First, he was in the Irish Army special forces. Then, he moved to America and got in the SF here. His reasoning for supporting the Norma was that, while .308 was good for training and is easily available and was in the contract to be there, the .300 Norma was better for deployment use for enemy interdiction. And the .338 Norma to be used as a materials round when you want to shoot into a small building or a jeep engine. Blow up or leak some fuel tanks at a distance.

Thanks for that reply.

It was Kevin Owen's. He wasn't retired, he was in charge of the procurement of the system and actually did a fantastic job of getting all the stakeholders involved so they could understand why and what was needed. Taught the nerds and beancounters about ballistics so they could grasp why. MRAD blew the competition out of the water and then Kevin retired. He's been on a bunch of vids talking about it. Also a guest instructor at HAT creek which is probally the premier Long gun training facility in the world. A guy worth listening to IMO.

 

[_Windrider_]

It was Kevin Owen's. He wasn't retired, he was in charge of the procurement of the system and actually did a fantastic job of getting all the stakeholders involved so they could understand why and what was needed. Taught the nerds and beancounters about ballistics so they could grasp why. MRAD blew the competition out of the water and then Kevin retired. He's been on a bunch of vids talking about it. Also a guest instructor at HAT creek which is probally the premier Long gun training facility in the world. A guy worth listening to IMO.

Don’t tell accuracy 1st that

 

[Thump_rrr]

I partly agree and partly disagree with what you just said about the military's adoption of a rifle.

It's true that there are guys who think that if the military adopts a rifle, that means the rifle has to be the best rifle in the world. This is just ridiculous. There are all sorts of mediocre rifles that have made it into the military.

It's also true that the meeting military minimum standards during testing does mean something. The fact that the MRAD passed military torture tests, had to perform with at least 1 MOA accuracy with .300 Norma Mag factory ammo at 300 yds during testing, and so forth definitely means something. Like I'm not sure how anyone can say that that means nothing.

I think the truth is somewhere between when it comes to purchasing a rifle because the military has adopted it.

That said, in the case of the MRAD, I put a lot of stock into what guys like Todd Hodnett, Bryan Litz, and Kevin Owens say and those dudes all swear by the MRAD.

I think you're right about top-shelf customs by the way. The quality and customizability of top-shelf customs is not something I'm going to dispute.

Thanks for your comments.

When the Canadian government went shopping for a MRSWS back in 2001 the requirement was to hit a chest sized target at 1,200M 90% of the time.