Night Vision Need help deciding on IR Laser/Illuminator

[dscl]

I'm just getting into Night Vision and I'm planning to dump the majority of my budget into a PVS-14 with a really good tube. I'm therefore trying to save some cash where I can on the Laser/Illumination side of things initially. After doing a bit of research I'm considering these options (in ascending price):

• Holosun LS321G = $650
• Surefire M640V + Holosun LE117-IR + Modlite ModButton Lite (Dual Lead) = $798
• Steinger DBAL-I2 9700 = $850
• Surefire M640V + Steiner OTAL-C IR + Surefire Dual Switch = $995
• Steiner DBAL-A3 = $1,100

Curious on the groups thoughts… Anything else to consider and stay in this price range(ish)? Are any of these a clearly superior choice? People seem to really pile on to the terrible customer service of Steiner and if I go any of the standalone units I need to add white lite into the cost as well.

 

[Huskydriver]

Luna elir ir

 

[TheHorta]

Kiji 3° is an option.

 

[stefan73]

If you de-neuter the Luna you have a wicked illuminator. It isn't the cleanest but it throws out some good power and is focusable.

The Dbal-D2 is big. I really don't care for it. I like the form of the Vital2's but those aren't made anymore, sadly. I have been looking at the TOR's for my PCC or something like the OTAL-C.

 

[smcfarland]

TOR plus a Luna is a great combo if using for hunting and not for tactical scenarios. Over fifty hogs to date with that setup. More buttons to press but it works, as well as being lightweight and fairly low profile.

 

[rlsmith1]

Are you illuminating for a clipon or wanting to use this unit to aim through the PVS14?

If looking to illuminate for a clipon, the Luna is really the best value. I can see eyes to over 1k and have engaged plates as far (sometimes without an illuminator if it's a bright night).

If looking to aim with this unit, the Luna / Tor is the cheapest but I really like the Surefire Vampire / TAPS / OTAL C combo. Should be well under $700 if you are patient for a deal and don't mind buying used. The nice thing about the Surefire / TAPS / OTAL combo is each manufacturer builds their units to be durable so that is less of a concern. You can also save some weight / bulk if you don't mind having the IR and white light be the same unit

 

[dscl]

Thanks for the comments everyone, just now getting a chance to respond

Luna elir ir

I wasn't aware of this unit, I'll check it out

Kiji 3° is an option.

My only issue with this option, and why I liked the Vampire, is I still need another light then so now I have 3 attachments adding weight to the business end

If you de-neuter the Luna you have a wicked illuminator. It isn't the cleanest but it throws out some good power and is focusable.

The Dbal-D2 is big. I really don't care for it. I like the form of the Vital2's but those aren't made anymore, sadly. I have been looking at the TOR's for my PCC or something like the OTAL-C.

I wasn't aware of this unit, I'll check it out

TOR plus a Luna is a great combo if using for hunting and not for tactical scenarios. Over fifty hogs to date with that setup. More buttons to press but it works, as well as being lightweight and fairly low profile.

Intended setup would be more for a tactical scenario. I do want to try hog hunting at some point though!

Are you illuminating for a clipon or wanting to use this unit to aim through the PVS14?

If looking to illuminate for a clipon, the Luna is really the best value. I can see eyes to over 1k and have engaged plates as far (sometimes without an illuminator if it's a bright night).

If looking to aim with this unit, the Luna / Tor is the cheapest but I really like the Surefire Vampire / TAPS / OTAL C combo. Should be well under $700 if you are patient for a deal and don't mind buying used. The nice thing about the Surefire / TAPS / OTAL combo is each manufacturer builds their units to be durable so that is less of a concern. You can also save some weight / bulk if you don't mind having the IR and white light be the same unit

This is for aiming through a PVS-14. I really like the idea of the Vampire so I do cut down on weight and number of attachments. If I was to do something like a Luna or Kiji then I would still need a white light. At that point I would go back to the idea of all in one for the laser & illuminator.

 

[spamassassin]

Nothing like an expert and I don't know all of the available products but I've spent a huge amount of dollars this year kitting out for having gun-fun in the dark and bought both the Kiji 3deg and a Vampire. I'm liking my Kiji 3deg the most but that's weapon mounted on a long range rifle. If you're just illuminating for your PVS-14 for short range then I might consider the 10deg (which IIRC there is one of in the marketplace). With the 3deg model you get tons of reach, plenty of power, tiny size, compatibility with SureFire bodies. It's expensive as all hell for the size of the thing but when you start looking at what a component VCSEL diode that can push that kind of power costs (I have the skills with microelectronics so I thought I might try assembling my own just for kicks but in the end the cost vs. reward would be really bad since I wouldn't have such a refined item as the Kiji is.), you start to realize that it's just the cost of doing business in the dark. Consider that even a much less capable SureFire white/IR combo costs 1/2 - 3/4 as much and the extra for the Kiji starts to be justified in both price tag and expenditure for my use case. My use case is pretty solidly dedicated to intermediate to long range. If you want white light in the same unit then it's probably going to come down to a Vampire or a Vampire unless you're willing to pump up the volume on the spend.

 

[rlsmith1]

Op, not to be contrarian but I don’t feel limited by the vampire inside 300 yds which is about as far as you’d want to shoot anyway.

I assume you mean unfilmed when you say “really good tube” so illumination isn’t as high of a priority unless you’re in mixed light environments (urban) and need to bring everything up to the same brightness. Even then I’d feel fine with the vampire inside 150 yds.

Just make sure you get a pad that lets you use the laser without the illuminator. That’s why I like the TAPS because you can either use just the laser or the laser / light combo. If I have the light on white then I don’t care if the IR is firing or not.

Nice thing about the vampire combo is down the road you can upgrade the OTAL to an all in one unit (PEQ15, MAWL, etc.) and keep your vampire on white light exclusively. If you want to lock out the white light you can do that with the vampire head to so you don’t ND your white light which is nice

 

[bllistc]

I ran the vampire/OTAL-c combo for a while when I first got into NV. Its a decent setup with a TAPS-sync switch. It's not ideal for tactical shit because the gas from the barrel scatters the light from the surefire and can obscure your target after a couple rounds. The beam from the surefire vampire heads is not very focused. Obviously its not as much of an issue if you're moving but for static shots its a pain in my experience. It may be better with other LED based illuminators like the arisaka malkhoff head that have a tighter beam but I haven't used that one.

The DBAL D2 can be found around $1200. Its a pretty bit piece but the illuminator would be superior to the surefire. I ended up getting a FP peq15 and I would highly recommend you do the same if you can save up for a bit longer and find one. FP Laser based illuminators are far better than any civilian options IMO.

 

[Conqueror]

Had a DBAL-D2 and liked it. It’s definitely chunky but it wasn’t the end of the world and it’s not much heavier than other units, just a bit larger physically. And the illuminator is really really good. I only sold it because I got a MAWL which fit better on my SBRs with limited rail space.

 

[LawnMM]

You don't really need a laser. So if this is a budget build, skip it. Buy a "heads up" or "NV height" mount for your RDS, Unity Tactical makes the classic example for Aimpoint T2s and Trijicon MROs and you can aim 'passively' through the red dot with your PVS14 just like you do with your eyeball during daylight hours.

Then it's just a question of being able to see what you want to hit at night. The NOD will help with a lot of that, the Kiji 3 degree would handle the rest.

The Surefire vampire is a jack of all trades but a master of none. There are better sources of IR and white light.

A modlite OKW will throw light way farther out than a vampire in the visible spectrum. The kiji will beat it like a red headed stepchild in the IR spectrum.

I'd start with whatever white light you already have laying around to save money. Buy a Kiji 3 degree for night time illumination and a high mount for your RDS and forego the laser altogether for now.

If you're really thinking about tactical scenarios those have limited applications these days because it's like turning a flashlight on (even the civ versions) under nods at night. You can see where it's being projected from, not necessarily the beam like in the movies, unless you have a full power unit, but you'll still see the emitter light up.

Passive aiming is the new hotness anyway.

 

[Keel Haul]

The Dbal-D2 is big. I really don't care for it. I like the form of the Vital2's but those aren't made anymore, sadly. I have been looking at the TOR's for my PCC or something like the OTAL-C.

I wanted to do the MAWL but couldn’t justify the 3k with the amount of night shooting I’m not doing at the moment, so I went with that add to cart price at kosher for the D2. Yeah, that critter is thick. Like, I need a half inch riser for my optic thick. However I was pretty pleased with that illuminator. Have that D2 wired up to a unity hot button and pretty happy with how that rifle is configured. I am also kicking around the idea of the tor for the MP5 to use at harsh language distance.

 

[Lowdown3]

The D2 is a big ol' girl, no doubt there. I've mounted one, didn't like the balance of my rifle afterward and said "naaah."

Tried it again in a more centered position on a rifle and liking that a lot better.

We see this at class a lot, but too often people put too much $hit on their rifles and the balance goes to hell. Then they are practically getting a work out every time they do drills with the rifle. 2 potential problems there- 1. You got too much $hit on your rifle and 2. You need to spend more time in the knuckle pushup position

 

[WhereNow&How]

Or take your heavy ass rifle with too much stuff (I got some) and do a bunch of ready ups like Keller says.

With a heavy ass rifle, a ton of ready ups are almost as bad as the knuckle pushups.

But my heavy ass rifles are one and done full featured 24/7, do it all and do it well, so the ready ups are worth it.

 

[Lowdown3]

Definitely.

It's the guys that DON'T seem to work it that I get sometimes that seem like they are going to throw their back out doing very similar drills. We do a lot of scanning drills involving quick ID of the correct targets and some of these guys have a hard time keeping that rifle up while they are scanning also.

Lots of ready ups, knuckle push ups and holding the rifle out one handed extended like a pistol and then switch hands, all are good drills for developing that needed arm strength.

 

[WhereNow&How]

You don't really need a laser.

Passive aiming is the new hotness anyway.

When you need a laser you need a laser point blank period. (For real life PID decisions that have consequences.)

A MFAL with its IR Pointer and IR Illuminator can provide some things nothing else can do.

I crack up about all this don't turn on a IR Pointer or Illuminator.

With the proliferation of thermal for night ops, that is what a person should be fearful of. So keep on with the passive aiming (will keep you covert BS) while the thermal OP rips the passive aiming group to threads.

 

[Lowdown3]

Good point. Your never going to totally mask your signature once your shooting, don't care if you have a suppressor.

30 or so years ago, some of the old skewl Vietnam era SF guys took us out to the swamps, pitch dark and taught us to shoot at night with no illumination, no NV, just iron sights (all most had back in the day). They had those little 2 inch Cyalume sticks that used to be sold for fishing taped to targets in the dark. One of the guys asked an old timer what the light stick was there for. He replied that "in the jungle at night that might be all you have to aim at." The tiny lightstick was there to simulate muzzle flash.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Yep, a suppressor can actually be a huge albatross around your neck. Point being, a person can get behind some pretty thick cover and mask their heat signature from thermal. But if you have a hot ass suppressor on the end of your freedom seed launcher, it likely can be so hot that it will give your position away even in brush cover thick enough to mask body heat from thermal.

 

[LawnMM]

When you need a laser you need a laser point blank period. (For real life PID decisions that have consequences.)

A MFAL with its IR Pointer and IR Illuminator can provide some things nothing else can do.

I crack up about all this don't turn on a IR Pointer or Illuminator.

With the proliferation of thermal for night ops, that is what a person should be fearful of. So keep on with the passive aiming (will keep you covert BS) while the thermal OP rips the passive aiming group to threads.

He's not HALO dropping into Afghanistan you Muppet, he's putting something together for fun and looking to save some money.

Do tell about these PID scenarios though, I'm interested to hear how a laser helps him ID a target, in America, at night, in his back yard or whatever that he can't already ID with NV and a good illuminator.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Dude you are the one that interjected tactical in the scenario, via your posts statement below, not me. I just corrected up some of your bad advice as to why you would not need to turn the "flashlight" on.

"If you're really thinking about tactical scenarios those have limited applications these days because it's like turning a flashlight on (even the civ versions) under nods at night. You can see where it's being projected from, not necessarily the beam like in the movies, unless you have a full power unit, but you'll still see the emitter light up.

Passive aiming is the new hotness anyway."

I am not advising the original poster on how he should rig up. Just pointing out your assumptions and statements have some serious flaws one should consider.

And I am far from a Muppet. Name calling does not change the facts.

Muppet definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Muppet definition: a foolish person | Meaning, pronunciation, translations and examples

www.collinsdictionary.com

"a foolish person"

 

[LawnMM]

Actually, he named tactical considerations in a follow up post, which to me at least, means bump in the night or at worst Antifa types coming down the street.

I'm not making assumptions. I'm giving him suggestions on how to save money and current trends. Everybody used to use lasers because they couldn't aim passively without knocking their nods off the receiver trying to get low enough.

The laser was a workaround. Keep your head up and just put the dot on the bad guy and squeeze.

I never said he was invisible or that there weren't other people with other gear, but again, he's not in some foreign land fighting a well funded opposing force. He wants to indulge in something new and cool without breaking the bank and you're being an ass.

I didn't say anything that's incorrect, you just want to play gotcha by interjecting shit like thermal that nobody's talking about. You've contributed nothing to the original question. Go away.

 

[Lowdown3]

The last couple of years when it's been so busy, I've only logged maybe 100+ hours a year under NODs, mainly at classes and practice at our home range.

I've bounced numerous questions off of @WhereNow&How because I know he gets out there and is using this stuff regularly.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Everybody used to use lasers because they couldn't aim passively without knocking their nods off the receiver trying to get low enough.

The laser was a workaround. Keep your head up and just put the dot on the bad guy and squeeze.

Another incorrect statement. Passive aiming has been available since the invention of NODS and red dots/holographic sights etc.

All you did back in the "old days" was put a riser on your weapon then slap your red dot etc (with tallest regular mount under it) and presto. No need for Unity Tactical or any of the other "Skyscraper Type" mounts. I have many setups where the day optic ( now T2s and PA Cyclops) are taller than what even Unity or the other manufacturers provides. However, the reason is not for passive aiming (albeit I definitely have that ability).

The reason has to do with thermals clearing MFALs, a better (more natural) neck and head position when using both day and night sights (thermal) and the ability to roll the shooting eye NV pod up to get down on a clip on thermal while still having in my case the left eye still under NODS while shooting through a day optic with clip on thermal on it at night. All of that occurring without clashing of NV duals with your weapon sights.

Here is how you save a ton of money to get "Skyscraper" optic type results.

Amazon product ASIN B00M3EUW3G

 

[LawnMM]

all of that to end by saying...

All of that occurring without clashing of NV duals with your weapon sights.

 

[WhereNow&How]

all of that to end by saying...

Nope.

To demonstrate TO YOU, that some of your statements, are just incorrect.

So this Muppet will get back to doing what Muppets do.

 

[LawnMM]

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

The steiner SPIR is extremely good and it's LED and super clean

 

[LawnMM]

I think it's discontinued, there was one for sale a little while back in the PX though

 

[GreenMushroom]

Actually, he named tactical considerations in a follow up post, which to me at least, means bump in the night or at worst Antifa types coming down the street.

I'm not making assumptions. I'm giving him suggestions on how to save money and current trends. Everybody used to use lasers because they couldn't aim passively without knocking their nods off the receiver trying to get low enough.

The laser was a workaround. Keep your head up and just put the dot on the bad guy and squeeze.

I never said he was invisible or that there weren't other people with other gear, but again, he's not in some foreign land fighting a well funded opposing force. He wants to indulge in something new and cool without breaking the bank and you're being an ass.

I didn't say anything that's incorrect, you just want to play gotcha by interjecting shit like thermal that nobody's talking about. You've contributed nothing to the original question. Go away.

Lasers aren't a work around for anything and passive aiming is not a replacement for a laser/illuminator. They are different tools for different jobs.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@dscl
Intended setup would be more for a tactical scenario. I do want to try hog hunting at some point though!

If you want to go tactical and have an excellent setup with the minimum dollars, a DBAL A3 (Civi) slaved to a Luna ELIR 3 is an excellent choice. Going that route you will likely end up having about $1,700 in the system (when fully assembled) but it offers full power performance and is an extremely reliable system.

Otherwise you could try to find a FP Dbal A3 but they are expensive and hard to come by. (Expect $2,000 on low end and $3,500 ish on the high end) with the average for a FP Dbal A3 50/50/50 version currently running around the $2,700 to $2,900 mark last I checked.

I have found the Steiner Dbal A3, both CIVI and FP versions both to be extremely reliable. The unique feature the A3 has is the Overide that provides for instant activation of Green Vis Point and White Light. This has serious benefits in a tactical scenario that very few other MFALS have.

Below is a Dbal A3 Civi slaved to a Luna ELIR-3. Robert at JRH can get you the Dbal A3, Luna ELIR-3 and the Luna Surefire Adapter. Then you would need 2 Surefire DS00 switches (one for Luna, one for White Light) then get 2 Taps Sync Switch's. One slaves the A3 to the Luna, and one slaves the A3 Vis Point Overide Port to the White Light.

The really nice thing about slaving the Luna to A3 is that you can use rechargeable RCR 123 batteries in the Luna which puts the battery in the A3 only running the IR point. So batteries in the A3 last forever because that battery is not having to run the A3 Illuminator. Another huge plus is redundancy. If for some reason the Luna went down, you can quickly rotate the A3 nob and use the A3 Illuminator.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Another thing to note about the above system in the photo is that if the Unity/TNVC pressure switch's were to fail/quit working, every device (Dbal A3, Luna ELIR, and Surefire M600 with MOD Lite OKW head on it) all have their own on board switch which provides redundancy should the 2 Unity/jTNVC switch's have a failure.

You can also take your time building this system so you are not having to fork out all the money at one time.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Here is the Luna wide open at 1,000 yards.

However the really nice thing about the Luna is that you can turn the Rheostat down in a split second to do close indoor CQB stuff where it is but a trickle of IR that won't bounce back into your NODS and is "eyesafe" if dialed way down with the beam wide open.

However, the Luna can deliver a lot of IR energy and ALWAYS MUST BE HANDLED CAREFULLY AND APPROPRIATELY, so as not to put out critters (both 4 & 2 legs) eyes.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I think it's discontinued, there was one for sale a little while back in the PX though

Yeah there's was, I sold mine about maybe a year ago or so, and I wish I hadn't. I have some other more powerful things but with my LR24, I bet that SPIR is absolutely awesome.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@dscl

Hower, the Dbal D2 is an excellent choice and performer. Probably the best one and done simple device to get you tactical and capable for the dollars expended.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

@dscl

Hower, the Dbal D2 is an excellent choice and performer. Probably the best one and done simple device to get you tactical and capable for the dollars expended.

True, for one that has the white light that's a hard one to beat for overall one and done device. My FP A2/peq15 works very well for NV long range shooting as well as CQ, and has the thumb adjust, which is clutch, but he'd have to run a separate white light. That can be done and use the switch though so may be a good option as well.

 

[stefan73]

Or take your heavy ass rifle with too much stuff (I got some) and do a bunch of ready ups like Keller says.

With a heavy ass rifle, a ton of ready ups are almost as bad as the knuckle pushups.

But my heavy ass rifles are one and done full featured 24/7, do it all and do it well, so the ready ups are worth it.

Had fun doing a bunch of ready ups with a SAW till muscle failure. That was fun