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Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
Something very similar to the USAMU's SDM, is the USAMU's Small Arms Firing School. Almost any U.S. Citizen can enter this annual event held at the beginning of the National Trophy Championships, last week of July, Camp Perry, Port Clinton, Ohio.
BTW, your appraisal of what you'll learn from an SDM course is somewhat off course, no pun intended. Not doggin' ya, but, the USAMU's SDM is mostly about plain old marksmanship fundementals.
Something very similar to the USAMU's SDM, is the USAMU's Small Arms Firing School. Almost any U.S. Citizen can enter this annual event held at the beginning of the National Trophy Championships, last week of July, Camp Perry, Port Clinton, Ohio.
BTW, your appraisal of what you'll learn from an SDM course is somewhat off course, no pun intended. Not doggin' ya, but, the USAMU's SDM is mostly about plain old marksmanship fundementals.
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
You need training not just on how to shoot, but tactics. any monkey can learn to shoot. Seek out tactical LE classes, they may not be in your state but airfare isn't too bad these days if you plan ahead.
You need training not just on how to shoot, but tactics. any monkey can learn to shoot. Seek out tactical LE classes, they may not be in your state but airfare isn't too bad these days if you plan ahead.
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
A monkey can execute the firing task, I doubt one could learn how to shoot. Think is, most folks equate executing the firing task with knowing how to shoot. Problems expose themselves however when the target gets small. Then, instead of accepting the obvious, the monkey (shooter)thinks all he needs is a big ass scope to get the job done.
A monkey can execute the firing task, I doubt one could learn how to shoot. Think is, most folks equate executing the firing task with knowing how to shoot. Problems expose themselves however when the target gets small. Then, instead of accepting the obvious, the monkey (shooter)thinks all he needs is a big ass scope to get the job done.
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
The Illinois State Rifle Team Hard Dogs should be able to fix you up. They have a long history with both the M14 and M16.
Failing that you can e-mail John Holliger at White Oak Precision or Mark Westrom at Armalite -- both are Distinguished Riflemen. Mark is a CMP DM Instructor and retired Army officer.
I'm sure training will be free, you bring the bullets. Park your ego at the door.
The Illinois State Rifle Team Hard Dogs should be able to fix you up. They have a long history with both the M14 and M16.
Failing that you can e-mail John Holliger at White Oak Precision or Mark Westrom at Armalite -- both are Distinguished Riflemen. Mark is a CMP DM Instructor and retired Army officer.
I'm sure training will be free, you bring the bullets. Park your ego at the door.
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A monkey can execute the firing task, I doubt one could learn how to shoot. Think is, most folks equate executing the firing task with knowing how to shoot. Problems expose themselves however when the target gets small. Then, instead of accepting the obvious, the monkey (shooter)thinks all he needs is a big ass scope to get the job done. </div></div>
This is of no help to me at all
Allow me to clarify. My original post.......as I made it as I was leaving work this morning.
I already know how to shoot. I knew how to shoot AR's before my carbine training. I just learned and refined my tactics for deploying said carbine. Plus it never hurts to practice and gain muscle memory.
I need the equivalent for what would be considered a DMR (an M14 with a 4x or 6x optic). I need the practice, refine my tactics and pick up some tips. For example, I never learned sling-aided shooting. I had to teach myself. Thus, I would not be using any sling-aided shooting techniques in the field. </div></div>
Of course it's no help to you, the post was not directed to you.
BTW, sinister has an excellent idea. There are today about 90 certified CMP-USAMU MRI's, and any, I'm sure, in your area would enjoy the opportunity to present the SDM class curriculum just for the practice.
One more thing, you mentioned that you already know how to shoot, maybe, but one thing is for sure, if you don't know all there is to know about good shooting, the SDM course will reveal it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A monkey can execute the firing task, I doubt one could learn how to shoot. Think is, most folks equate executing the firing task with knowing how to shoot. Problems expose themselves however when the target gets small. Then, instead of accepting the obvious, the monkey (shooter)thinks all he needs is a big ass scope to get the job done. </div></div>
This is of no help to me at all
Allow me to clarify. My original post.......as I made it as I was leaving work this morning.
I already know how to shoot. I knew how to shoot AR's before my carbine training. I just learned and refined my tactics for deploying said carbine. Plus it never hurts to practice and gain muscle memory.
I need the equivalent for what would be considered a DMR (an M14 with a 4x or 6x optic). I need the practice, refine my tactics and pick up some tips. For example, I never learned sling-aided shooting. I had to teach myself. Thus, I would not be using any sling-aided shooting techniques in the field. </div></div>
Of course it's no help to you, the post was not directed to you.
BTW, sinister has an excellent idea. There are today about 90 certified CMP-USAMU MRI's, and any, I'm sure, in your area would enjoy the opportunity to present the SDM class curriculum just for the practice.
One more thing, you mentioned that you already know how to shoot, maybe, but one thing is for sure, if you don't know all there is to know about good shooting, the SDM course will reveal it.
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
Ask them to spring for a precision rifle class, take your M14's, and ask the instructors to spend some of the down-time with you going over tactics specific to your needs.
Rifles Only does an excellent job of teaching positions other than prone and working on rifle handling skills in and from the shoot house.
Blackwater does a lot of work from 100-300 in its basic LE sniper course, and it has the facilities and props for working on urban tactics.
Storm Mountain used to offer a two-day LE designated marksman course, the accuracy requirements are no greater than what you are asking for, but I have no information on the quality of the instruction.
Center Mass in Canton, MI, may also have what you want. They only have a 200 yard range, but might be able to design a two day course specific to your needs.
Ask them to spring for a precision rifle class, take your M14's, and ask the instructors to spend some of the down-time with you going over tactics specific to your needs.
Rifles Only does an excellent job of teaching positions other than prone and working on rifle handling skills in and from the shoot house.
Blackwater does a lot of work from 100-300 in its basic LE sniper course, and it has the facilities and props for working on urban tactics.
Storm Mountain used to offer a two-day LE designated marksman course, the accuracy requirements are no greater than what you are asking for, but I have no information on the quality of the instruction.
Center Mass in Canton, MI, may also have what you want. They only have a 200 yard range, but might be able to design a two day course specific to your needs.
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
In reply to PointBlank, No offense meant, only trying to help answer the question, but do you mean "firing techniques" in terms of deployment of the DM's, or do you refer to the means to accomplish a task, or employment, as in "tactics?" The military often breaks out the various activities as tactics, techniques and procedures (TTP's). (For what it is worth, I have also blogged at word reference for a number of years.
In terms of firing techniques and firing procedures, I think several quality solutions have been provided. In terms of "tactics" though, I recommend that you you begin with a detailed plan that offers a task and purpose, and that outlines these aims in a multi-layered approach that starts with the fire and movement of the "few designated officers" and moves to incorporation of everyone and everything you can throw at your "target(s)." If you demonstrate a detailed knowledge of what you want to get to, leadership will find ways to help you get there.
For starters, find a copy of the FMFM 6-5 (MCWP) or FM 21-75 (FM 21-75) and make yourself comfortable with the basics of formations, fires and movement. Note: these are provided openly probably because anyone can download and read it but very few will actually practice it to a high level of expertise. Small (and large) units that are good at it are units that practice a lot. Surely there is some great SWAT units in your region that could put you through a good workout. I have trained with a great many and different type units, and have found out very quickly if people get it or not. The people that get it are the people that practice. For a really good real-world example see - Army Rangers. For another type view, see -the assault on Noriega's Hangar.
Even canned scenarios (gentlemen-this is your single envelopment course. As your squad comes under enemy fire, one fireteam will lay down a BOF, while the other two move adjacent to the enemy along the path the other people have used and then throw a yellow smoke to get the BOF to shift its fires, thus allowing the assault element to move through the enemy. Afterward, the BOF will consolidate on the objective), worked again and again, can greatly assist the small unit in its endeavors.
Naysayers have argued to great length with me about this, contending that these skills are too basic, but they are wrong. (LOL). Too often, qualifiers such as jump and scuba or perhaps even a special hat are thought to indicate mastery of fighting skills when it is mastery of basic infantry skills that point to the true professionals. You show me an "elite unit" guy and I'll bet he has "served time" in a couple of battalions before earning his current status. A good example for the eyes is the HBO series "Band of Brothers," owing to the fact that the actual living members of that organization acted as consultants for that film. In Law Enforcement, the only movie that I can think of that demonstrates any real knowledge of tactics is the movie "Heat." As I recall, they even used commands, "loading," "covering," "moving," which, of course, are easier to use if the base unit does not incorporate M240G's. (LOL).
OK, I got long-winded; but, I am very interested in this topic not just for the historical perspective, but also because a great many LEO and Homeland Security entities are arming themselves to the teeth without (IMHO) a like emphasis on tactics. More and better guns does not equate to a win, and accuracy is the best suppression...
<span style="font-style: italic">"The question, which these anecdotes often leave vague, is whether these exercises were primarily displays of individual combat skills, as in gladiatorial fighting, or displays of mass formation, as in modern-day parade ground drill. Josephus claims that the Romans constantly trained theirs soldiers, so that in the actual shock of battle they maintained formation as in drilling: <span style="font-weight: bold">"their [exercises] are bloodless battles and their battles bloody [exercises]."</span></span>
Phang, Sara, "Roman Military Service," Cambridge University Press, 2008, (pp 39-40).
Also, this interesting LIFE article.
In reply to PointBlank, No offense meant, only trying to help answer the question, but do you mean "firing techniques" in terms of deployment of the DM's, or do you refer to the means to accomplish a task, or employment, as in "tactics?" The military often breaks out the various activities as tactics, techniques and procedures (TTP's). (For what it is worth, I have also blogged at word reference for a number of years.
In terms of firing techniques and firing procedures, I think several quality solutions have been provided. In terms of "tactics" though, I recommend that you you begin with a detailed plan that offers a task and purpose, and that outlines these aims in a multi-layered approach that starts with the fire and movement of the "few designated officers" and moves to incorporation of everyone and everything you can throw at your "target(s)." If you demonstrate a detailed knowledge of what you want to get to, leadership will find ways to help you get there.
For starters, find a copy of the FMFM 6-5 (MCWP) or FM 21-75 (FM 21-75) and make yourself comfortable with the basics of formations, fires and movement. Note: these are provided openly probably because anyone can download and read it but very few will actually practice it to a high level of expertise. Small (and large) units that are good at it are units that practice a lot. Surely there is some great SWAT units in your region that could put you through a good workout. I have trained with a great many and different type units, and have found out very quickly if people get it or not. The people that get it are the people that practice. For a really good real-world example see - Army Rangers. For another type view, see -the assault on Noriega's Hangar.
Even canned scenarios (gentlemen-this is your single envelopment course. As your squad comes under enemy fire, one fireteam will lay down a BOF, while the other two move adjacent to the enemy along the path the other people have used and then throw a yellow smoke to get the BOF to shift its fires, thus allowing the assault element to move through the enemy. Afterward, the BOF will consolidate on the objective), worked again and again, can greatly assist the small unit in its endeavors.
Naysayers have argued to great length with me about this, contending that these skills are too basic, but they are wrong. (LOL). Too often, qualifiers such as jump and scuba or perhaps even a special hat are thought to indicate mastery of fighting skills when it is mastery of basic infantry skills that point to the true professionals. You show me an "elite unit" guy and I'll bet he has "served time" in a couple of battalions before earning his current status. A good example for the eyes is the HBO series "Band of Brothers," owing to the fact that the actual living members of that organization acted as consultants for that film. In Law Enforcement, the only movie that I can think of that demonstrates any real knowledge of tactics is the movie "Heat." As I recall, they even used commands, "loading," "covering," "moving," which, of course, are easier to use if the base unit does not incorporate M240G's. (LOL).
OK, I got long-winded; but, I am very interested in this topic not just for the historical perspective, but also because a great many LEO and Homeland Security entities are arming themselves to the teeth without (IMHO) a like emphasis on tactics. More and better guns does not equate to a win, and accuracy is the best suppression...
<span style="font-style: italic">"The question, which these anecdotes often leave vague, is whether these exercises were primarily displays of individual combat skills, as in gladiatorial fighting, or displays of mass formation, as in modern-day parade ground drill. Josephus claims that the Romans constantly trained theirs soldiers, so that in the actual shock of battle they maintained formation as in drilling: <span style="font-weight: bold">"their [exercises] are bloodless battles and their battles bloody [exercises]."</span></span>
Phang, Sara, "Roman Military Service," Cambridge University Press, 2008, (pp 39-40).
Also, this interesting LIFE article.
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
PointBlank. You may be unavailable recently, or my answer may have been overbearing (which I would regret), but I hope that you continue to visit this site and ask questions. With simple research available to even the un-saviest of us,it would seem that you might work the most open of all environments and need the most help. Or at least I think so.
People often pose questions to me despite the fact that I do not have a clue. I am serious. What I have done though, after years of watching Columbo, is to teach myself how to determine what the question is. The question posed correctly receives the best answers. Having looked at your question again and again, I believe our answers are starting too far down the road. Not about marksmanship, but about solving the problem. In Illinois, I assume the cities have set up solutions for perceived potential problems. The next level of public attention (and outcry should a problem develop) is the place where the 1st Amendment is king and where an the individual has advantage no matter the question. If I am right you should PM me, since a friend of mine is nearby and would be of help, should time allow between studies. He has been in no-win situations and won.
He may help you in no-win situations, to tie. With public attention, there can be no winner, only those that survive.
PointBlank. You may be unavailable recently, or my answer may have been overbearing (which I would regret), but I hope that you continue to visit this site and ask questions. With simple research available to even the un-saviest of us,it would seem that you might work the most open of all environments and need the most help. Or at least I think so.
People often pose questions to me despite the fact that I do not have a clue. I am serious. What I have done though, after years of watching Columbo, is to teach myself how to determine what the question is. The question posed correctly receives the best answers. Having looked at your question again and again, I believe our answers are starting too far down the road. Not about marksmanship, but about solving the problem. In Illinois, I assume the cities have set up solutions for perceived potential problems. The next level of public attention (and outcry should a problem develop) is the place where the 1st Amendment is king and where an the individual has advantage no matter the question. If I am right you should PM me, since a friend of mine is nearby and would be of help, should time allow between studies. He has been in no-win situations and won.
He may help you in no-win situations, to tie. With public attention, there can be no winner, only those that survive.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Forty-One</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With public attention, there can be no winner, only those that survive. </div></div>
That is exactly why I was skeptical of this project in the first place. This isn't our style at all.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Forty-One</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With public attention, there can be no winner, only those that survive. </div></div>
That is exactly why I was skeptical of this project in the first place. This isn't our style at all.
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
All,
It appears that the OP's department has a perception of what is taught in an SDM course, perhaps, expecting it will reveal something esoteric about "tactical" shooting.
Yet, a look at the course curriculum will clarify that there's nothing apocalyptic about it, in essence, it's mostly about basic marksmanship.
Since the OP believes he already knows how to shoot, maybe, there's something other than an SDM course out there that will provide the sort of training which is actually sought.
On the other hand, for those who realize they don't know all there is to know about good shooting, an SDM or BRM course will provide a basis of understanding to inspire results unimaginable without such training. The only prerequisite is an ego check.
All,
It appears that the OP's department has a perception of what is taught in an SDM course, perhaps, expecting it will reveal something esoteric about "tactical" shooting.
Yet, a look at the course curriculum will clarify that there's nothing apocalyptic about it, in essence, it's mostly about basic marksmanship.
Since the OP believes he already knows how to shoot, maybe, there's something other than an SDM course out there that will provide the sort of training which is actually sought.
On the other hand, for those who realize they don't know all there is to know about good shooting, an SDM or BRM course will provide a basis of understanding to inspire results unimaginable without such training. The only prerequisite is an ego check.
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,
It appears that the OP's department has a perception of what is taught in an SDM course, perhaps, expecting it will reveal something esoteric about "tactical" shooting.
Yet, a look at the course curriculum will clarify that there's nothing apocalyptic about it, in essence, it's mostly about basic marksmanship.
Since the OP believes he already knows how to shoot, maybe, there's something other than an SDM course out there that will provide the sort of training which is actually sought.
On the other hand, for those who realize they don't know all there is to know about good shooting, an SDM or BRM course will provide a basis of understanding to inspire results unimaginable without such training. The only prerequisite is an ego check. </div></div>
I don't recall ever meeting anyone on my range, so assumptions about abilities (or lack there of) are unfounded and just a waste of everyone's time.
</div></div>
Waste of time, probably.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pointblank4445</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,
It appears that the OP's department has a perception of what is taught in an SDM course, perhaps, expecting it will reveal something esoteric about "tactical" shooting.
Yet, a look at the course curriculum will clarify that there's nothing apocalyptic about it, in essence, it's mostly about basic marksmanship.
Since the OP believes he already knows how to shoot, maybe, there's something other than an SDM course out there that will provide the sort of training which is actually sought.
On the other hand, for those who realize they don't know all there is to know about good shooting, an SDM or BRM course will provide a basis of understanding to inspire results unimaginable without such training. The only prerequisite is an ego check. </div></div>
I don't recall ever meeting anyone on my range, so assumptions about abilities (or lack there of) are unfounded and just a waste of everyone's time.
</div></div>
Waste of time, probably.
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
Probability X Consequences = Risk.
Low probability X low perceived consequence = low risk.
It'll take someone convincing your leadership that the consequences of having untrained gunners justifies the need to invest in training and hardware.
On the other hand don't confuse enthusiasm for capability.
Probability X Consequences = Risk.
Low probability X low perceived consequence = low risk.
It'll take someone convincing your leadership that the consequences of having untrained gunners justifies the need to invest in training and hardware.
On the other hand don't confuse enthusiasm for capability.
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
Pointblank, this is not written to you in particular, just some general food for thought on the topic:
There's a fine line between preparation and paranoia. As always, which one it is depends less on fact than on point of view.
Law enforcement increasingly finds itself in the preparation business, but saddled with management that understands only how to react. Thinking critically is the bridge between the two: ether they can do it; or they can't.
You remain responsible for your own marksmanship skills, state actor or not. Meaning: just because you happen to be trained doesn't mean you are qualified to take the perimeter assignment or are able to take the shot. Conversely, just because you are assigned the long-gun doesn't mean you know what you are doing. Liability may attach either way - to you, as well as to the department. Departments train Officers for the needs of the department, not for the needs of the Officers. Don't mistake the two.
Proper preparation for any incident, by any deginated marksman team, includes the simple things: walking the potential AO with a tape measurer; recording measurements in your log book; making drawings; creating diagrams; picking OP's; getting building plans; and filing it all away with an OPS plan. Far too many Departments neglect this less glorious phase of preparation because it has nothing to do with dressing up and playing with toys. Don't neglect the obvious that can be done for free, whether or not you are given expensive training.
Pointblank, this is not written to you in particular, just some general food for thought on the topic:
There's a fine line between preparation and paranoia. As always, which one it is depends less on fact than on point of view.
Law enforcement increasingly finds itself in the preparation business, but saddled with management that understands only how to react. Thinking critically is the bridge between the two: ether they can do it; or they can't.
You remain responsible for your own marksmanship skills, state actor or not. Meaning: just because you happen to be trained doesn't mean you are qualified to take the perimeter assignment or are able to take the shot. Conversely, just because you are assigned the long-gun doesn't mean you know what you are doing. Liability may attach either way - to you, as well as to the department. Departments train Officers for the needs of the department, not for the needs of the Officers. Don't mistake the two.
Proper preparation for any incident, by any deginated marksman team, includes the simple things: walking the potential AO with a tape measurer; recording measurements in your log book; making drawings; creating diagrams; picking OP's; getting building plans; and filing it all away with an OPS plan. Far too many Departments neglect this less glorious phase of preparation because it has nothing to do with dressing up and playing with toys. Don't neglect the obvious that can be done for free, whether or not you are given expensive training.
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pointblank, this is not written to you in particular, just some general food for thought on the topic:
There's a fine line between preparation and paranoia. As always, which one it is depends less on fact than on point of view.
Law enforcement increasingly finds itself in the preparation business, but saddled with management that understands only how to react. Thinking critically is the bridge between the two: ether they can do it; or they can't.
You remain responsible for your own marksmanship skills, state actor or not. Meaning: just because you happen to be trained doesn't mean you are qualified to take the perimeter assignment or are able to take the shot. Conversely, just because you are assigned the long-gun doesn't mean you know what you are doing. Liability may attach either way - to you, as well as to the department. Departments train Officers for the needs of the department, not for the needs of the Officers. Don't mistake the two.
Proper preparation for any incident, by any deginated marksman team, includes the simple things: walking the potential AO with a tape measurer; recording measurements in your log book; making drawings; creating diagrams; picking OP's; getting building plans; and filing it all away with an OPS plan. Far too many Departments neglect this less glorious phase of preparation because it has nothing to do with dressing up and playing with toys. Don't neglect the obvious that can be done for free, whether or not you are given expensive training.</div></div>
That's an excellent post. I don't have experience in LE. My experience is military only. First on the line, then operations. As noted your main concern is a college campus. As Graham noted you can get the whole layout for free before anything were to ever happen. Walk the whole place and figure out avenues of approach, and alternates. Places where you could stage assault teams, place precision fire...and where you can't. Nothing like taking a stroll to find alternatives to issues you can think of. When I was in we were always doing some wargame scenario. You don't have to go out and physically run it. You have the luxury of walking it.
One of the jokes about us ex-Rangers is that all the kids know how to field strip and shoot an M-16 and there's a range card at every window. this is the perfect opportunity to make those up, along with some plans about each point where you may have to deal with conflict.
As far as that goes with you and your buddy becoming proficient on the M-14. Look at all the potential shots. What positions you might have to make them from. Take those notes to the range and duplicate as many as you can and practice shooting that. If you don't think you'll end up using that then look at what you might shoot at with an AR and plan/practice accordingly. A lot of times during our ops rehearsals we ended up making a change because of something we didn't see on the plans. It wasn't evident until got to a point in the plan that it had to be changed to allow for it. A lot of times things like that ended up being SOP in some way or another.
Once that whole scenario is mapped out, you then take some other 'points of interest' and see what they may offer as both a plan and challenges to overcome.
-good luck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pointblank, this is not written to you in particular, just some general food for thought on the topic:
There's a fine line between preparation and paranoia. As always, which one it is depends less on fact than on point of view.
Law enforcement increasingly finds itself in the preparation business, but saddled with management that understands only how to react. Thinking critically is the bridge between the two: ether they can do it; or they can't.
You remain responsible for your own marksmanship skills, state actor or not. Meaning: just because you happen to be trained doesn't mean you are qualified to take the perimeter assignment or are able to take the shot. Conversely, just because you are assigned the long-gun doesn't mean you know what you are doing. Liability may attach either way - to you, as well as to the department. Departments train Officers for the needs of the department, not for the needs of the Officers. Don't mistake the two.
Proper preparation for any incident, by any deginated marksman team, includes the simple things: walking the potential AO with a tape measurer; recording measurements in your log book; making drawings; creating diagrams; picking OP's; getting building plans; and filing it all away with an OPS plan. Far too many Departments neglect this less glorious phase of preparation because it has nothing to do with dressing up and playing with toys. Don't neglect the obvious that can be done for free, whether or not you are given expensive training.</div></div>
That's an excellent post. I don't have experience in LE. My experience is military only. First on the line, then operations. As noted your main concern is a college campus. As Graham noted you can get the whole layout for free before anything were to ever happen. Walk the whole place and figure out avenues of approach, and alternates. Places where you could stage assault teams, place precision fire...and where you can't. Nothing like taking a stroll to find alternatives to issues you can think of. When I was in we were always doing some wargame scenario. You don't have to go out and physically run it. You have the luxury of walking it.
One of the jokes about us ex-Rangers is that all the kids know how to field strip and shoot an M-16 and there's a range card at every window. this is the perfect opportunity to make those up, along with some plans about each point where you may have to deal with conflict.
As far as that goes with you and your buddy becoming proficient on the M-14. Look at all the potential shots. What positions you might have to make them from. Take those notes to the range and duplicate as many as you can and practice shooting that. If you don't think you'll end up using that then look at what you might shoot at with an AR and plan/practice accordingly. A lot of times during our ops rehearsals we ended up making a change because of something we didn't see on the plans. It wasn't evident until got to a point in the plan that it had to be changed to allow for it. A lot of times things like that ended up being SOP in some way or another.
Once that whole scenario is mapped out, you then take some other 'points of interest' and see what they may offer as both a plan and challenges to overcome.
-good luck
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
Pointblank,
Check out the courses at Center Mass, see if they fit your needs. They are located in Michigan, not far from Detroit, which depending on where you are in Illinois shouldn't be too far. Also check out the NTOA, they do classes all over the place. If you are willing to travel to Mi, I know of a DMR course, where you can bring any rifle you want for the most part. Send me a PM if you want more info. Good Luck.
Pointblank,
Check out the courses at Center Mass, see if they fit your needs. They are located in Michigan, not far from Detroit, which depending on where you are in Illinois shouldn't be too far. Also check out the NTOA, they do classes all over the place. If you are willing to travel to Mi, I know of a DMR course, where you can bring any rifle you want for the most part. Send me a PM if you want more info. Good Luck.
Re: Need Help. Designated Marksman training for LEO?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Texagator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two places you should look are the Illinois Tactical Officers Association and the National Tactical Officers Association. While there is a great deal of overlap between the skills, training, and missions of military and police snipers, there are also some very significant differences. Police snipers operate under state law and their Department's use-of-force policy rather than UCMJ and ROE. Also, the legal, judicial, and media demands on police snipers to be laser-beam accurate and certain when they take a shot] are usually much more acute than those on military snipers.
While police snipers rarely work at true long ranges, they are tasked with making critical shots where 2 inches difference in bullet impact can literally be the difference between life and death for some poor victim. While sub-MOA is not necessarily required for LE sniper work, a rifle capable of consistent 1 MOA performance is now considered the absolute rock-bottom standard. One and a half MOA just won't cut it anymore, especially considering that your log book and qual sheets are subject to subpoena.
I sincerely hope that your Department is not trying to do some sort of "light" version of a police sniper. There is an enormous amount of case law, standards, and case studies available which absolutely scream against doing something like that. Generally speaking, if you have a certain piece of equipment and you respond to a situation where you act like a specialized officer, you will be held to the standard for that specialization. For example, if you show up with a German Shepherd on a leash and do some kind of quasi-K9 stuff and your dog tears people to shreds, you and your Department will be held to the same standards and case law that the highest trained K9 units are held to. If you show up in SWAT gear and try to handle a critical incident that most experts would regard as requiring a SWAT team, then you and the Dept will be held to SWAT standards. The same thing applies to designated marksmen, police marksmen, snipers, or whatever other name some administrator wants to call it. If you show up to a hostage situation with a precision rifle that has an optical sight on it, you WILL be held to the standards and case law that all other "real" police snipers are.
I cannot say this strongly enough: <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Be careful here.</span></span> <span style="font-weight: bold">DO NOT LET SOMEONE AT YOUR AGENCY PUT YOU IN A POSITION TO FAIL.</span> Don't you dare let them put you behind that scope without the same training that the average police sniper in Illinois receives. There are plenty of one-week basic police sniper schools out there. If you are allowed to deploy with a scoped rifle, find one and attend it, even if you have to pay for it yourself and burn vacation time to do it. It's worth it. </div></div>
On the flip side....That too is a really outstanding post. I can now see why pointblank4445 is a little hesitant to go forward with this. The quote you make about being held to a standard also includes training. Do something that a specialized LEO would do and you may come under fire...just for not having the training. I'm sure some greedy 'poor-me lawyer' would be all over getting a piece of that lawsuit.
I therefore retract any innuendo to take or plan any action. I would tell my higher-ups that it's a specialty thing and they should handle it. You're right don't get hung out to dry on that one.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Texagator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two places you should look are the Illinois Tactical Officers Association and the National Tactical Officers Association. While there is a great deal of overlap between the skills, training, and missions of military and police snipers, there are also some very significant differences. Police snipers operate under state law and their Department's use-of-force policy rather than UCMJ and ROE. Also, the legal, judicial, and media demands on police snipers to be laser-beam accurate and certain when they take a shot] are usually much more acute than those on military snipers.
While police snipers rarely work at true long ranges, they are tasked with making critical shots where 2 inches difference in bullet impact can literally be the difference between life and death for some poor victim. While sub-MOA is not necessarily required for LE sniper work, a rifle capable of consistent 1 MOA performance is now considered the absolute rock-bottom standard. One and a half MOA just won't cut it anymore, especially considering that your log book and qual sheets are subject to subpoena.
I sincerely hope that your Department is not trying to do some sort of "light" version of a police sniper. There is an enormous amount of case law, standards, and case studies available which absolutely scream against doing something like that. Generally speaking, if you have a certain piece of equipment and you respond to a situation where you act like a specialized officer, you will be held to the standard for that specialization. For example, if you show up with a German Shepherd on a leash and do some kind of quasi-K9 stuff and your dog tears people to shreds, you and your Department will be held to the same standards and case law that the highest trained K9 units are held to. If you show up in SWAT gear and try to handle a critical incident that most experts would regard as requiring a SWAT team, then you and the Dept will be held to SWAT standards. The same thing applies to designated marksmen, police marksmen, snipers, or whatever other name some administrator wants to call it. If you show up to a hostage situation with a precision rifle that has an optical sight on it, you WILL be held to the standards and case law that all other "real" police snipers are.
I cannot say this strongly enough: <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Be careful here.</span></span> <span style="font-weight: bold">DO NOT LET SOMEONE AT YOUR AGENCY PUT YOU IN A POSITION TO FAIL.</span> Don't you dare let them put you behind that scope without the same training that the average police sniper in Illinois receives. There are plenty of one-week basic police sniper schools out there. If you are allowed to deploy with a scoped rifle, find one and attend it, even if you have to pay for it yourself and burn vacation time to do it. It's worth it. </div></div>
On the flip side....That too is a really outstanding post. I can now see why pointblank4445 is a little hesitant to go forward with this. The quote you make about being held to a standard also includes training. Do something that a specialized LEO would do and you may come under fire...just for not having the training. I'm sure some greedy 'poor-me lawyer' would be all over getting a piece of that lawsuit.
I therefore retract any innuendo to take or plan any action. I would tell my higher-ups that it's a specialty thing and they should handle it. You're right don't get hung out to dry on that one.
