Sidearms & Scatterguns Need help pistol gurus

[Victory]

So I have always been a long gun guy, but have been trying to bring my pistol skills up.

So with my Sig 229 and 938 I focus on my front sight post, dots aligned, and I place the top of my sight post center mass of where I want my POI to be. All good, and I can keep pretty good groups.

Just got a G17, put trijicon night sights on it, and when aiming the same way I do with my Sig's, I am shooting way high. I was working on a dueling tree, and had to aim about 2 to 3 inches below the steel plate to hit it. I didn't have time to put any paper up to see exactly how high I was shooting, but when aiming center mass I could see my impacts above the plates. So what could be the culprit, my grip, sights, or something else I'm not thinking of?

Thanks for the help.

 

[sidewaysil80]

More than likely its the sights. It sounds like you may need a taller front sight. Set up paper at 20/25yds and fire off some groups, when you figure out how high you are shooting head over to the Dawson Precision website and use their formula/instructions to determine what height you will need up front.

 

[AlabamaShooter]

I had a similar issue when i picked up a G19, I usually shoot 1911s so needless to say it was a bit of a change. I grab very high on the 1911s and this caused me issues with the Glock, to where if I wasn't careful i would hit high on the target. I ended up giving a grip add-on on a whim(25 bucks with no major mods needed) and it helped to bring the pistol back into alignment to where I would hit the steel where i was aiming. But i ultimately did upgrade the sights to Heinie Straight - 8s to get rid of the plastic sights that came from the factory.
Beavertail Grip for Glock

Hope this helps.

AS

 

[kansas]

Yeah Glocks grip angle causes the gun to naturally point high compared to most pistols but if you're leveling your sights that shouldn't be an issue. You've got to put on paper to find out where it is printing. Personally I'd prefer my pistol to be hitting a little high so Ive got my sights level and just below the spot I'm aiming at so as not to cover it. Won't make much difference in a self defense situation but for sport shooting like 3 gun or IDPA it's better, IMO, to not cover your target with your sights.

 

[K_4c]

Thumbs forward and roll the wrist down to achieve proper sight alignment... My grip is very aggressive (I get as high up as I can and my left thumb slightly past the thumb pad). Use your thumbs to point at the target and drive the gun. If you prefer the 1911 grip.... perform a grip reduction.

best of luck sir

 

[Victory]

K_4c, that is how I grip my pistols. I already thought about doing a grip reduction before even getting it. One thing I did notice it that with my large hands(skinny long hands), when I grip high on the 17, my trigger finger drags the trigger well and is in a slight downward angle, and not level with the bore. This should throw my rounds horizontal though, which isn't happening.

Kansas, 16 years in the Army, when shooting stressed, my muscle memory takes over and I always end up shooting center mass. I know I will never be a bullseye shooter, so i'm good with it.

Alabama, it is a gen4 so I'll try some of the other grips and see if that helps.

 

[alpine44]

So I have always been a long gun guy, but have been trying to bring my pistol skills up.

So with my Sig 229 and 938 I focus on my front sight post, dots aligned, and I place the top of my sight post center mass of where I want my POI to be. All good, and I can keep pretty good groups.

Just got a G17, put trijicon night sights on it, and when aiming the same way I do with my Sig's, I am shooting way high. I was working on a dueling tree, and had to aim about 2 to 3 inches below the steel plate to hit it. I didn't have time to put any paper up to see exactly how high I was shooting, but when aiming center mass I could see my impacts above the plates. So what could be the culprit, my grip, sights, or something else I'm not thinking of?

Thanks for the help.

From your description I would suspect the sights but that is just a guess without seeing your results.

Do some dryfire exercises and verify that you can cleanly pull the trigger without disturbing the sight alignment/picture. Glocks are know for needing a certain grip technique to avoid "jerking" when the striker releases. Burying them deep in your hands, with thumbs pointing straight forward along the slide, and pressing the grip between both hands with your pectorals seems to yield the most consistent results. Also, use very little trigger finger - just the pad or even only the tip depending on the length of your fingers. (The SIG229 DA/SA is happier with more finger, IMO).

Decide what ammo your are going to use. Then, shoot at paper aiming at a post-it note from your preferred stance (Chapman, Isosceles, Weaver, etc). Then shoot at another target from a different stance.

If you get tight groups and similar POA/POI differences from different stances, it is time to change the sights. Front sights come in different heights for elevation and rear sights can be drifted/pushed to adjust windage.

 

[bkw1911]

Sigs are setup for point of impact on the dot and glocks are setup to impacts on top of blade. If groups are tight then your grip is just fine. The angle of the grip does nothing to effect how you align sights. Sights are sights. You can buy different height sights to change your glock to shoot off the dot instead of top of blade. That will result in 4-6" difference high or low if you use the wrong sight picture.

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[bkw1911]

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/showthread.php?t=244692
This thread should give you a little insight on sight picture. Your sig uses #3 and glock uses #2

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[alpine44]

Attached are two pictures to show the operator influence on the POA/POI relation. Both groups were shot successively. Since I was testing ammo for speed consistency, I did not go "completely anal" about accuracy.

The same bullet, launched with the same powder at roughly the same speed (seating depth was the variable) should have put the center of gravity of both groups at the same spot in relation to the POA (top of front sight aligned with the bottom edge of the U-shaped box) - if it were not for the nut behind the gun.

 

[K_4c]

It's difficult to say without seeing you shoot, but as somebody already stated, sights are sights... once properly aligned with a proper and consistent trigger pull, the results should be the same. I only brought up a grip reduction b/c of prior fundamentals acquired through shooting Sigs... I once shot 1911's and Sigs (sig p226) and forced myself to adapt to Glocks grip angle... after many many dry fire sessions, it's totally instinctive now (from the draw to breaking my first shot in 1.2-1.4 seconds).

If you plan on sticking with the g17, dry fires drills will greatly inhance your skill set....

 

[bkw1911]

It's difficult to say without seeing you shoot, but as somebody already stated, sights are sights... once properly aligned with a proper and consistent trigger pull, the results should be the same. I only brought up a grip reduction b/c of prior fundamentals acquired through shooting Sigs... I once shot 1911's and Sigs (sig p226) and forced myself to adapt to Glocks grip angle... after many many dry fire sessions, it's totally instinctive now (from the draw to breaking my first shot in 1.2-1.4 seconds).

If you plan on sticking with the g17, dry fires drills will greatly inhance your skill set....

Definitely true there's a huge learning curve on the grip. Flipping back and forth on a 1911 style grip and a glock is very difficult. Most guys I compete with that try switching back and forth take a couple months to readjust to one or the other each time they switch. Off the draw is the hardest if you switch between guns because your sights come up in the wrong place.

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[Roddd]

I've seen some shooters with the 3 dot night sights focus on the actual dots and not the sights themselves and sometimes you don't recognize that you're doing it. That may be one other option to explore. I think our eyes naturally gravitate towards the dots because they're much easier to see but more difficult to line up. I don't know if that's your case, but it may be something to check the next time you're at the range.

 

[DP425]

As already stated, the designed use of the sights between the sig and Glock are not the same. Two different types of sight holds and are the most likely cause here.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Preferred Pistol Sight Picture
This thread should give you a little insight on sight picture. Your sig uses #3 and glock uses #2

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I must be crazy then because I've always used #3 on my issued & personal Glocks, P226, M&P, XDM, FNX, and my 1911. The targets don't seem to care on what gun it is when I've got the Trijicon dot sights on all of them. Nice tight groups wherever I aim that dot. I focus predominantly on that front site to the point where it is in focus over my target and the backs blur slightly. Quick and natural for me.

When I see shooters struggle with one gun, but do well with another it almost always has to do with not having a good consistent grip on the weapon they are not familiar with. (Assuming you have good trigger control) Hell, I used to struggle with this on the Glock and would bitch about how I couldn't shoot the Glock nearly as accurately as other pistols I had more experience with. However I learned that a lot of it had to do with me not gripping the gun as well as I was on other platforms due to the different ergonomics.

 

[bkw1911]

I must be crazy then because I've always used #3 on my issued & personal Glocks, P226, M&P, XDM, FNX, and my 1911. The targets don't seem to care on what gun it is when I've got the Trijicon dot sights on all of them. Nice tight groups wherever I aim that dot. I focus predominantly on that front site to the point where it is in focus over my target and the backs blur slightly. Quick and natural for me.

When I see shooters struggle with one gun, but do well with another it almost always has to do with not having a good consistent grip on the weapon they are not familiar with. (Assuming you have good trigger control) Hell, I used to struggle with this on the Glock and would bitch about how I couldn't shoot the Glock nearly as accurately as other pistols I had more experience with. However I learned that a lot of it had to do with me not gripping the gun as well as I was on other platforms due to the different ergonomics.

Most of the trij's are probably setup off the dot since you can't see the top of blade at night easily. Most glocks should be setup at #2 but I forget I change all of my sights to Dawsons immediately. They probably arent 100% consistent.

I shot m&ps 9-45 4"-5" that depended on the model whether it shot #2 or #3. Sig seems to do the best with consistency and marks the sight height on the sides. Most service pistols seem to favor #3 for simple put the dot on center of mass and squeeze. Makes it easier for people who use it as a backup weapon and don't practice with sights alot. For competing and especially shooting plate racks I find #2 much better and most guys run that way too.

Whatever works works though. I'd just make all your pistols shoot the same point of impact so you can pick up any of them and know where it going to hit and not think about which one it is.

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[Victory]

Thanks for all of the insight guys. I hold pretty good groups on my quals with my 229, usually 6-8" for 50 rounds, weak, strong, slow, and rapid fire, from 5m to 25m.
If switching back and forth between the models is going to cause such an issue, I'll just stick with what I shoot decent already. I would rather shoot well with one or two pistols than shitty with 5 or 6. Reason I only have one bolt gun right now, one AR lower with two uppers, one shotgun, and soon to be just two Sigs. I'm going to play around with it for a while longer, but if after putting some time into it, if I don't improve or my Sig skills deteriorate I’ll just get rid of it.
Thanks again guys.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

You shouldn't have issues switch back and forth with a little trigger time. I carried the 226 for a short time and initially it did throw me off a little bit switching back and forth doing quals as I was ensuring the sig was to be trusted before switching to it. Shoot the Glock a bit and you will find yourself at home on both platforms.

 

[chad cochran]

Try to google this image.

http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/photos/weapons_firearms/shooterswheelofmisfortuneace.jpg

Take it with you to the range and apply it to your group. I would also get some instruction from a pistol guy at the range to make sure you are using a proper grip - no offense to what you are doing now.

chad

 

[Sig Marine]

As already stated, the designed use of the sights between the sig and Glock are not the same. Two different types of sight holds and are the most likely cause here.

↑↑↑ Winner ↑↑↑

Sight alignment, sight picture, trigger press and follow-through. Fundamentals are fundamentals regardless of the gun you are shooting. Sigs typically like what some call "combat" hold where you cover your target with the front blade and POI will be where you see the dot thus the phrase "shoot the dot". Others have center mass holds where the POI is at the top of the front blade.

I have two P226s that I shoot in competition and it took several changes of the front and rear sights to get them to BOTH shoot the identical POA/POI. I also have three guns for self defense that have been changed to the same POA/POI as my 226s. It takes time but the last thing I need is a gun that doesn't shoot where I need it to...train the way you fight.

Semper Fi...Sig Marine

 

[_Windrider_]

Try to google this image.

http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/photos/weapons_firearms/shooterswheelofmisfortuneace.jpg

Take it with you to the range and apply it to your group. I would also get some instruction from a pistol guy at the range to make sure you are using a proper grip - no offense to what you are doing now.

chad

I think this is the correct chart

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[SilentG21]

Give yourself enough time with that glock, do some clean-slate mind retraining with it and redevelop muscle memory with your glock and I bet you ditch the sigs for more glocks. That's what happened to me with my HKs. For close targets I recommend not using the sights at all, point your glock with two hands as described above and look slightly over your sights. Works for me.

 

[ultrarunner7]

Get some Dawson sites. More defined front site and better for sight tracking/feedback while shooting.
Follow through and track the sights. See where they finish... you may be pulling thing before the thing is on the thing.
Be sure youre not milking the pistol with your strong hand. Make sure your grip pressure it more with your weak hand and relax your strong hand. Milking the gun will cause you to push away from your strong hand and often times high(because of recoil anticipation).
Open your eyes. Haha. Jk. Id like to see your grip... Better yet, a video which allows me to see your trigger control as well. You can send it to [email protected]. Ill square you away.

PS: I put an rmr on my gun and shot it for a year. Now, when I pick up iron sights, I blister it. I gives you better feedback with tracking the sights and trigger control/moving the gun during trigger squeeze. I eventually preferred an rmr because you can shoot under nods much better than you can with iron/night sights.

 

[leadbullet]

never use the dots to aim with, they are there to track the sights during recoil (don't ever blink) line up the top of the front sigth with the top or rear sigth focusing on the front. Cover the bottom half of your target and squeeeeze. this works especially with glocks, the dot on their sight are worthless.