Im needing help getting a dedicated thermal scope for under $1500. I’m trying to find one that I can put on a 22 lr/mag and even a 223 for predators. It’s going to be used mostly in the woods not in open fields. I would like something that could go up to 10x if that’s possible.
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Night Vision Need Help Selecting Thermal Scope
- Thread starter Willie Miller V
- Start date
Oh boy ... the short answer is ... not possible ... non-such exists.
The pulsars street prices start around $2250 ... with the 38mm focal length Apex ... those are very usable hunting scopes.
https://www.opticsplanet.com/pulsar-pl76417-apex-xq38-dig-nv-scp.html
You might be able to find a used one under $2k. I have one and I know several others that do and do not know anyone wanting to sell. They are nice little units.
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Both Pulsar and FLIR have 19mm focal length entries with street prices under $2k, but those have fixed focus and get fuzzy beyond 100yds. Maybe they will work for you, but they wouldn't work for me. even though on coop defense, I rarely shoot over 100yds, I want to be able to see 500yds, not be limited to seeing 100yds. All their bigger brothers have manual focus which gives you a much better image, but you have to pay for the manual focus.
==
As to 10x ... well depends on what you mean by "10x" ... if you look at the Apex 38mm it says 8.8x ... but what does that mean? That is digital magnification, which means "zooming in on the pixels" and you loose 75% of the remaining pixels for each 2x digital over the base 2.2 optical magnification. You can go 2x digital and be usable on a 320-336 unit. But beyond that and you are too fuzzy.
The old Zeus Pro 100mm 336 was 8x optical on the front, and that is a real 8x. But that's the highest optical magnification I recall seeing on a thermal scope off the top of my head.
Point is, realize there is a difference between digital magnification and optical magnification for thermals (for digtal scopes) and don't think they are the same thing.
The only way I know of to do 10x+ with thermal is the few military clipons that will do that and they are all over $10k.
==
So if you want a very limited capability unit to get started, then the pulsar
https://www.opticsplanet.com/pulsar-pl76483q-core-rxq30v-therml-scp.html
And the FLIR
https://www.opticsplanet.com/flir-s...1-5-6x19-30hz-thermal-imaging-weapon-sig.html
Exist, though I wouldn't recommend them for hunting.
==
The pulsars street prices start around $2250 ... with the 38mm focal length Apex ... those are very usable hunting scopes.
https://www.opticsplanet.com/pulsar-pl76417-apex-xq38-dig-nv-scp.html
You might be able to find a used one under $2k. I have one and I know several others that do and do not know anyone wanting to sell. They are nice little units.
==
Both Pulsar and FLIR have 19mm focal length entries with street prices under $2k, but those have fixed focus and get fuzzy beyond 100yds. Maybe they will work for you, but they wouldn't work for me. even though on coop defense, I rarely shoot over 100yds, I want to be able to see 500yds, not be limited to seeing 100yds. All their bigger brothers have manual focus which gives you a much better image, but you have to pay for the manual focus.
==
As to 10x ... well depends on what you mean by "10x" ... if you look at the Apex 38mm it says 8.8x ... but what does that mean? That is digital magnification, which means "zooming in on the pixels" and you loose 75% of the remaining pixels for each 2x digital over the base 2.2 optical magnification. You can go 2x digital and be usable on a 320-336 unit. But beyond that and you are too fuzzy.
The old Zeus Pro 100mm 336 was 8x optical on the front, and that is a real 8x. But that's the highest optical magnification I recall seeing on a thermal scope off the top of my head.
Point is, realize there is a difference between digital magnification and optical magnification for thermals (for digtal scopes) and don't think they are the same thing.
The only way I know of to do 10x+ with thermal is the few military clipons that will do that and they are all over $10k.
==
So if you want a very limited capability unit to get started, then the pulsar
https://www.opticsplanet.com/pulsar-pl76483q-core-rxq30v-therml-scp.html
And the FLIR
https://www.opticsplanet.com/flir-s...1-5-6x19-30hz-thermal-imaging-weapon-sig.html
Exist, though I wouldn't recommend them for hunting.
==
I’ve come to realize that I’m going to up my budget to $2500 and see what comes from that. The ATN and the Armasights are like 2x-8x and something else in that neighborhood. I don’t know which would be better, the ATN or Armasight/Flir. I was hoping that the Armasight C Series Clip on would be coming out but that’s not happening anytime soon that I know of. I would be fine with a good Clip On in front of my NXS 2.5-10x42, nice and compact. I’m not sure who’s making any thermal clip on devices.
ATN is the worst of the group, I had an ATN Thor HD 19mm 1.25-5x and it was terrible. On black hot, there was no image what-so-ever. The screen was solid white. I called ATN twice and eventually they told me to send it back and I did. Maybe I had a lemon, but plenty of other people have had trouble with ATN, I recommend not going with ATN.
The Pulsar Apex I pointed you to, lists at $2,500 but if you call Optics Planet they will give you a 10% discount. Or call other dealers and ask for $2,250 price. I doubt they will go much lower.
[URL="https://www.opticsplanet.com/...www.opticsplanet.com/pulsar-...ig-nv-scp.html[/url]
BUT, that 2.2-8.8x is not real. The 2.2x is real, that is optical magnification, as I explained above on the front lens. You can go to 2x digital, that will be 4.4x net magnification and still see things. But if you go to 4x digital at 8.8x net magnification, the image will be too fuzzy. In fact, I would never go to 2x digital, just leave it on 2.2x optical for clearest image. However, in the Pulsars, there is a PIP (Pic In Pic) feature which allows the top center 10% of the screen to show a second view of the center of the reticle at 2x digital (net 4.4x) for final aiming. You still have the FOV of 2.2x optical, but you have the shot placement/final aiming capability of 4.4x net ... the best of both worlds. It takes some getting used to, but I find it useful.
==
As to FLIR/Armasight. I've had five Armasight Thermals and there was nothing wrong with the widgets. But after the merger with FLIR, we hear the entire CS staff has been laid off and FLIR is rebranding the Armasight thermals. This is different from the way Trijicon handled the merger with IR Defense. That merger seems to be going well.
So my concern with FLIR/Armasight right now, is I would want to wait and see things settle down and see the direction the new boson product line will take. The line has been delayed.
Nothing wrong with waiting if you can. There will always be new things coming out, from Pulsar and Trijicon as well. And SHOT show is in January. Of course, new thermals shown at SHOT show seem to on average, be released about 9 months later, so the wait might be a while.
==
As to Clipons, the only ones near your budget that I would consider are the pulsars.
https://www.opticsplanet.com/pulsar-core-thermal-riflescope.html
There is a 38mm focal length model and a 50mm ... you can probably get the 38mm for 10% off or $3,700. Call whatever dealer you like and offer $3,700 and see what they say.
But be aware, two issues with thermal clipons
1 - Mounting, it might be possible to mount directly to the scope bell, but I don't know anyone that recommends this, including me. And mounting to the rail, you need rail space and you need to be at the right height (1-2 tenths of an inch from center line of day scope). This might require you to need new rings and or a longer rail. So mounting for clipons can be a challenge if you didn't build your gun with clipon mounting in mind.
2 - Magnification. Thermal clipons are 1x magnification. Each 2x you crank on the day scope costs you half the magnification in both dimensions on the back of the TV screen. So for a 320x240 device you are now a 180x120 and you've lost 75% of your pixels. And that is about the limit. Personally, for a 320 device I find even 3x to be too fuzzy on the day scope. So you can run a thermal clipon like these in front of your NF 2.5-10x ... at 2.5x at minimum power And that is it. Any higher and the image will be too fuzzy.
==
So due to those two issues, for short distance hunting (out to 300yds depending on target size), I recommend a thermal scope, like you were originally thinking. Then you have optical magnification like 2.2x on the front and you get all your resolution with the 2.2x and if you crank up to 2x digital (4.4x net) then you still have a usable image. Better image and more magnification with a dedicated scope.
==
You can probably find a used Apex 50mm for around $2,500, I've seen one go for that recently. But if you want to buy new with a warranty, then the Apex 38mm is a good hunting scope, I've had both and still have the 38mm and I recommend it as a good entry level hunting thermal.
The Pulsar Apex I pointed you to, lists at $2,500 but if you call Optics Planet they will give you a 10% discount. Or call other dealers and ask for $2,250 price. I doubt they will go much lower.
[URL="https://www.opticsplanet.com/...www.opticsplanet.com/pulsar-...ig-nv-scp.html[/url]
BUT, that 2.2-8.8x is not real. The 2.2x is real, that is optical magnification, as I explained above on the front lens. You can go to 2x digital, that will be 4.4x net magnification and still see things. But if you go to 4x digital at 8.8x net magnification, the image will be too fuzzy. In fact, I would never go to 2x digital, just leave it on 2.2x optical for clearest image. However, in the Pulsars, there is a PIP (Pic In Pic) feature which allows the top center 10% of the screen to show a second view of the center of the reticle at 2x digital (net 4.4x) for final aiming. You still have the FOV of 2.2x optical, but you have the shot placement/final aiming capability of 4.4x net ... the best of both worlds. It takes some getting used to, but I find it useful.
==
As to FLIR/Armasight. I've had five Armasight Thermals and there was nothing wrong with the widgets. But after the merger with FLIR, we hear the entire CS staff has been laid off and FLIR is rebranding the Armasight thermals. This is different from the way Trijicon handled the merger with IR Defense. That merger seems to be going well.
So my concern with FLIR/Armasight right now, is I would want to wait and see things settle down and see the direction the new boson product line will take. The line has been delayed.
Nothing wrong with waiting if you can. There will always be new things coming out, from Pulsar and Trijicon as well. And SHOT show is in January. Of course, new thermals shown at SHOT show seem to on average, be released about 9 months later, so the wait might be a while.
==
As to Clipons, the only ones near your budget that I would consider are the pulsars.
https://www.opticsplanet.com/pulsar-core-thermal-riflescope.html
There is a 38mm focal length model and a 50mm ... you can probably get the 38mm for 10% off or $3,700. Call whatever dealer you like and offer $3,700 and see what they say.
But be aware, two issues with thermal clipons
1 - Mounting, it might be possible to mount directly to the scope bell, but I don't know anyone that recommends this, including me. And mounting to the rail, you need rail space and you need to be at the right height (1-2 tenths of an inch from center line of day scope). This might require you to need new rings and or a longer rail. So mounting for clipons can be a challenge if you didn't build your gun with clipon mounting in mind.
2 - Magnification. Thermal clipons are 1x magnification. Each 2x you crank on the day scope costs you half the magnification in both dimensions on the back of the TV screen. So for a 320x240 device you are now a 180x120 and you've lost 75% of your pixels. And that is about the limit. Personally, for a 320 device I find even 3x to be too fuzzy on the day scope. So you can run a thermal clipon like these in front of your NF 2.5-10x ... at 2.5x at minimum power And that is it. Any higher and the image will be too fuzzy.
==
So due to those two issues, for short distance hunting (out to 300yds depending on target size), I recommend a thermal scope, like you were originally thinking. Then you have optical magnification like 2.2x on the front and you get all your resolution with the 2.2x and if you crank up to 2x digital (4.4x net) then you still have a usable image. Better image and more magnification with a dedicated scope.
==
You can probably find a used Apex 50mm for around $2,500, I've seen one go for that recently. But if you want to buy new with a warranty, then the Apex 38mm is a good hunting scope, I've had both and still have the 38mm and I recommend it as a good entry level hunting thermal.
I can wait I’m not in any hurry. I’m going to go the dedicated thermal scope route. I just wish I was able to look through some of these scopes before dropping that kind of money.
Ultimate Night Vision does have a rental program ... I don't know the details, so not recommending it, but I can says "it exists" ...
http://www.ultimatenightvision.com/
==
If you happen to be located in the Great State of Texas
... there are plenty of dealers who could show you stuff ... but otherwise the rental program might work,though given your budgetary constraints it might not. That's for you to decide.
==
Alternatively you can look at NV/Thermal hunting videos and get some idea from those. Head over to youTube and search for "hog hunting thermal" and I'm sure you will find 100s. Of course be aware that the image recorded by the DVRs is usually degraded from the image seen by the human MK1 EyeBalls, and for some thermals (like the trijicons) the degrading seems to be more severe. Life is full of trade-offs. But if you look at 50 thermal hog/coyote hunting videos you will definitely have an idea of what it looks like through the thermal when you are doing those activities.
http://www.ultimatenightvision.com/
==
If you happen to be located in the Great State of Texas
... there are plenty of dealers who could show you stuff ... but otherwise the rental program might work,though given your budgetary constraints it might not. That's for you to decide.==
Alternatively you can look at NV/Thermal hunting videos and get some idea from those. Head over to youTube and search for "hog hunting thermal" and I'm sure you will find 100s. Of course be aware that the image recorded by the DVRs is usually degraded from the image seen by the human MK1 EyeBalls, and for some thermals (like the trijicons) the degrading seems to be more severe. Life is full of trade-offs. But if you look at 50 thermal hog/coyote hunting videos you will definitely have an idea of what it looks like through the thermal when you are doing those activities.
I just bought an Armasight Predator 640 1.5-12x25 and I'm very pleased with the image quality thus far. I'll be mounting it to an AR15 upper soon to start hunting coyotes.
Got an XQ50 a few weeks ago and have been killing predators nearly every stand since...
Sure, that's a step up from the older Apex 38mm I was recommending, but I was trying to stay around your stated budget.
If the budget keeps going up, you can afford better and better solutions !!!
==
In fact, you are even approaching the first usable clipons ... the FXQ38 and FXQ50 ...
https://i.imgur.com/KyesQMdh.jpg
Subtract 10% from the OP shown price to obtain the "street price" ...
usable magnification for these is about 3x for the 38mm (2.5x from your Nightforce) or about 4x for the 50mm 5x) and BTW this is roughly the same max useable magnification you can get out of the dedicated rifle scopes. Just that the dedicated rifle scopes are easier to mount (especially on a bolt gun not built to take clipons) and have a clearer image at base magnification.
So yes the XQ50 is a fine choice.
Ultimate Night Vision does have a rental program ... I don't know the details, so not recommending it, but I can says "it exists" ...
http://www.ultimatenightvision.com/
==
If you happen to be located in the Great State of Texas
==
Alternatively you can look at NV/Thermal hunting videos and get some idea from those. Head over to youTube and search for "hog hunting thermal" and I'm sure you will find 100s. Of course be aware that the image recorded by the DVRs is usually degraded from the image seen by the human MK1 EyeBalls, and for some thermals (like the trijicons) the degrading seems to be more severe. Life is full of trade-offs. But if you look at 50 thermal hog/coyote hunting videos you will definitely have an idea of what it looks like through the thermal when you are doing those activities.
What dealers in texas?
I wouldn't touch anything ATN or Armasight with a 10' pole, quite frankly they're crap. Some of the higher end Pulsar stuff is pretty good but personally I'd save up for a Trijicon/IRD MKII, MKIII or REAP-IR. They pretty much put everything else to shame and are well worth the price. You can find some pretty decent deals used but they don't pop up often, there's currently a REAP-IR on arfcom for under $7K IIRC. Euro Optic has also done two sales in the last month that applied to the Trijicon stuff (I think one is still going) that gets you 15% off which is an incredibly good deal for new.
The higher end FLIR stuff is good too but their CS is terrible.
The higher end FLIR stuff is good too but their CS is terrible.
