Need to minimize recoil and still shoot 1000 yards.....please help with choosing between 6mm Dasher and 6.5 Creedmoor

[want2learn]

Hi, I'm trying to learn long range shooting. Reading a lot and practicing. Signed up for a class as well.

Unfortunately I just can't tolerate the recoil of my .308 Winchester. I've tried working on ergonomics, excellent double ear protection, hand loading for the .308, adding weight to the stock, adding a recoil pad and a name brand muzzle brake.

I can shoot the rifle but it's just not pleasant, i get a headache and feel beat up....which is disappointing because i really enjoy the sport. My .223 and .222 are absolute pleasures to shoot.

I don't want to get rid of the rifle and so i thought perhaps it's best to try the 6mm Dasher or the 6.5 Creedmoor. I'm told that with the 6 Creedmoor, barrels don't last very long and money is a real concern for us.

I do hand load. The rifle is a Sig SSG3000.

Any information regarding overall barrel longevity with either of these cartridges

Also, do they both feed well through standard magazines?

Thanks

 

[metal2meat]

Either is plenty adequate for getting out to 1,000yds. You could even start with a 6BR twisted to shoot 105gr or heavier bullets and save yourself some time, effort and money. Any of the 6BR variants with a little weight to them and a brake will be very easy on recoil.

Most 6mm pills are cheaper than 6.5mm pills, but the heavier 6.5 billets might be a bit better in the wind. I think shooting a 6BR variant will be a bit cheaper, less recoil, plenty accurate and help you learn wind calls.

Another great option if you're reloading is the 6.5x47 Lapua. Very accurate, easy to tune, more forgiving in magazine length than the Creedmoor.

 

[Kadams1563]

The only problem with 6mm variants is barrel life. They don’t stay cheaper if your replacing barrels every 2k rounds.

With that being said I currently run a 6.5 Creed and will be swapping to a 6mm once I burn my barrel out and have to replace brass.

 

[want2learn]

interesting, thank you...it sounds like the 6.5×47 Lapua might be a good option for me, easy to load, works well in a magazine, accurate without too much recoil and decent barrel life.

Wondering then what would be the preferred barrel length and twist to get for this caliber?

I guess i'm looking for some sort of judicious compromise. My intent would be shooting primarily prone and bench rest with perhaps a monthly PRS type match or class? Paper and steel targets.

 

[Kadams1563]

I’d say 6.5 Creed for the occasional days you don’t feel like reloading.

If your going to run a brake or a suppressor then then 6.5’s are easy on you but the 6mm will be better then that.

The trend is going towards heavier rifles to soak up the recoil. A few years ago people wanted lighter weight rifles and 19lbs or so was too much. Now it’s 21 lbs and over is what you want.

For barrel length it’s 24”-26” and a 1/8 twist in a heavy Palma, M24, Mtu profile.

 

[Shootinsurveyor]

I have a lightweight Tikka 6.5 hunting rifle and the recoil on the Hornady 120 Eldm is just a step over what my heavy 243 feels like. It is all subjective to the end user, but I feel like a 6.5 with a muzzle brake or suppressor would be what you should look for. I reload for the 243, but probably won’t for the 6.5 because the ammo is good and fairly cost effective for the game we are playing. End result-I think a 6.5 with some sort of muzzle device and heavy barrel and stock will be downright comfortable to shoot. And not as much time and money on barrels and reloading gear unless that’s what you are into.

 

[supercorndogs]

Depends n how much powder. My 243 AI with 47.7 of 7977 kicked harder than my 6.5 Creed. Comparable to my .308 IMO. the 6.5 Creed is a surprisingly soft shooting round. Especially when paired with a faster powder like RL15 and 120 class bullets.

 

[want2learn]

Hopefully, i'll have the chance to try someone's 6.5 Cr
Wish we could have a suppressor but our state laws are unfortunately prohibitive.
appreciate all the info, it really helps.

 

[308pirate]

If you had a more popular rifle, I would suggest re-stocking it with something different. While you can make some small changes with your current stock's adjustments, sometimes a particular stock is just not a good basic fit no matter what you do to it. Poor stock fit is a proven way to increase the felt recoil of a rifle or shotgun to unpleasant levels.

Trouble is, the choices in stocks for the SIG SSG3000 are between slim and none.

 

[stevenc23]

Are you are just shooting paper and steel? If so why not just shoot your 223. While the 223 will get pushed around a bit from the wind after 500 it is still more than capable of making hits out to 1k. The ballistics are probably comparable or even better than your 308 with 75 or 80 ELDs. The 75 ELDs are cheap as is the brass and powder. I absolutely love shooting my 223 it out to a grand.

 

[Kadams1563]

Because he wants a 6mm lol.

I wish I would have built a .223 over my 6.5 creed.

 

[Roo_man]

223 is my fave round

 

[TriggerReed357]

Oh The joy of pushing .223 to 1000? I tried it but needed like 60-70minutes with a 70grain Berger load a friend made. I ran out of elevation because I had low tactical rings, 100yard Z and didn’t have a 20moa rail. I think the PST I was using maxed out at 65moa. It was fun times and the ammo is cheap but any ammo not match grade is unpredictable as hell

 

[LawnMM]

The only problem with 6mm variants is barrel life. They don’t stay cheaper if your replacing barrels every 2k rounds.

With that being said I currently run a 6.5 Creed and will be swapping to a 6mm once I burn my barrel out and have to replace brass.

Very few people shoot often enough to burn out a barrel in two years let alone one. I wouldn't let that factor sway your opinion. If you need a new barrel down the line, get one. It'll take longer, and more money than you think to reach that milestone.

 

[tsonda]

I have all three, that said the Dasher is silly accurate and no recoil with a suppressor. To bad you live in a communist state that wont allow suppressors. The concussion is what is giving you the headache, Suppressor negates that. The 6.5 creed is definitely less felt recoil than the .308. I would have to agree to go with a 6mm BR instead of a Dasher.

 

[want2learn]

Interesting points. thanks. I've tried to optimize stock fit as best i can with a recoil pad, adjusting the comb, trigger and scope position. I think i did this well?

Wondering if there is a better muzzle brake than what i'm currently using, one with less of a concussive effect. I'm currently using a surefire procomp muzzle brake but certainly open to other options

with respect to my .223/5.56, all i have is an AR type..... and i'd like to gain some skill with the bolt action format.

 

[Sheldon N]

I'm currently using a surefire procomp muzzle brake but certainly open to other options

That's not a particularly effective brake... look at the PVA Jet Blast or Area 419 Hellfire as alternate options. Either of those will likely give you 10% more recoil reduction.

With your specific rifle and it's proprietary magazines I would suggest you not build a 6BR or Dasher. The potential for feeding issues exists and if you ran into issues you'd be left with no aftermarket mags/spacers to turn to. Better to run a longer bodied case to be on the safe side of things (this coming from someone who shoots almost exclusively 6BR variants).

Short list of cartridges I'd recommend would be 6XC, 6 Creedmoor, or possibly 6x47. The key would be how you run them.... conservative powder charges, not too much pressure, don't run anywhere near the velocity potential. Something like a 115 DTAC at 2900 fps, or a 105/108 at 2975 fps would be a conservative low recoil load that would stretch barrel life somewhat. No fire forming, no need to mess with the mags, way less recoil than your 308.

Secondly when choosing a barrel go for heavier/longer. Longer will let you run less powder (less concussion/blast) and will put the muzzle brake farther from your head. Heavier contributes to overall reduced recoil.

 

[want2learn]

great information, thank you

After reading and digesting all the aforementioned information I think I'm tending to a 26 inch, heavier profile, 1 in 8 twist barrel in 6x47L and a more favorable muzzle brake. Does that sound best?

To my knowledge it seems that the only US company that makes barrels for the Sig SSG3000 is Benchmark Barrels.

Sure hope someone makes a hard case big enough to fit.

Wish me luck.

 

[Rangemaster]

My 2 cents and I have both and I shoot PRS matches year round With both a dasher and a bra.
both have a 419 brake. Both shoot really great and the recoil is very light.

 

[ThePretzel]

Both will shoot comfortably for you and perform decently at 1,000 yards. The 6BR holds a few 1,000 yard records, as do the other cartridges based off it. My current rifle is about 22 pounds chambered in 6BR with a PVA Jet Blast muzzle brake and it feels very similar on recoil to my old Savage .223 that's lightweight with a bare muzzle, which is to say there's not much at all.

There is, though, a definite difference between a good muzzle brake and an inefficient one. I ran with just my Thunderbeast Compact Brake that's used primarily for attaching suppressors for a while and it was better than nothing, but the Jet Blast was a night and day difference to me. I'm a fan of that brake in particular because it's one that doesn't give quite the concussive blast for the shooter that some other brakes do, and with me being young I'd like to do what I can to preserve my hearing as long as I can even if it means sacrificing 5% or less of recoil reduction. There are some guys in the PRS circuit reporting hearing damage caused by bone conduction from the blast of shooting aggressively braked rifles, and it's not something I'm willing to risk when the Jet Blast already works so well for me.

 

[myronman3]

call me a monkey....

but if money is a concern with you (i am a cheap bastard as well) why not consider a cartridge or two that isnt “designer”.....243 or 260 remington. or as someone else mentioned, a 223. you’ll get twice as many shots per pound of powder with the 223 than you will any of the other calibers mentioned. i am not up on it (simply because i am at that point in life where i know what works for me) but i have heard things about the valkyrie (SP?) that might warrent some consideration....even though it falls into my “designer” catagory.

There are plenty of bolt rifles made it 223, so i wouldnt let that stop you; twist rates would be something to pay attention to though. As far a the 6.5x47...i just dont see what it offers over the 260 or the creedmoor. Same same with the 6mm varieties over the 243. I mean folks can argue this or that...but from my point of view, you are picking fly shit out of pepper. But if you have a hankering for the 6.5x47 lapua, by all means. My only point is that for a guy that is concerned about budget, it might not be the path you want to take.

 

[want2learn]

great info, lots to think about. in the mean while will see if i can find a good sale on the favored muzzle brakes..at least that will hopefully allow me to better tolerate my .308 till i can save enough for a new caliber

 

[myronman3]

do you handload?

because if so, that will open up some options for you as well. sometimes something as simple as changing a powder or a bullet weight makes a huge difference.

 

[want2learn]

yes, i've been working up a load...i'm down to around .6 to .4MOA, still a work in progress.

 

[myronman3]

you might want to experiment with different powders. some years ago, i was using a powder for a 270 that was supposed to be the cat’s meow. when i shot it over a chrono, i was shocked....i was 200fps below what i was expecting.

so i switched powders. i went from a medium burn rate powder to a slow burn rate....i think it was 4831 to imr7828. my velocity went from 2670 to 2890. here is the screwballs part of the story....i swear to you, the recoil was night and day difference. same bullet weight, and the LOWER velocity load kicked noticably more. the only way i can figure it is the recoil must be felt in a different “impulse” for lack of a better word. i had another shooter try it on another day, without me telling them what was up. just said i wanted them to try the two loads and give me their opinion on which had more recoil. then afterward, i busted out the chronograph to prove what i was saying.

physics dont lie, but there has to be something in the way the powder burn rate that made it seem the slower load was kicking harder.

 

[want2learn]

fascinating....thanks

you're absolutely correct, i need to secure a chronograph as well. I think my neighbor has one.

 

[steve123]

great information, thank you

After reading and digesting all the aforementioned information I think I'm tending to a 26 inch, heavier profile, 1 in 8 twist barrel in 6x47L and a more favorable muzzle brake. Does that sound best?

To my knowledge it seems that the only US company that makes barrels for the Sig SSG3000 is Benchmark Barrels.

Sure hope someone makes a hard case big enough to fit.

Wish me luck.

With my two rifles in 6x47L I needed to bend the feed lips some for optimal feeding, just an FYI. In your rifle I'd use a longer cartridge if you don't want to risk messing with the mags.

6x47L is a wonderful cartridge except for barrel life. Average was about 1700 rounds per barrel but that is chasing lands and reworking loads after velocity dropped. I just retired my last one at 1600 rounds with a 77 fps drop that happened within 3 months.

If/when I do another 6x47 barrel I'm trying N160 for it's cooler flame temp. Previously I tried H4831sc but I didn't get the barrel life I hoped for.

I googled the interior mag length for your rifle and came up with 3.45", is this correct? If so there's good ole 6.5x55, high quality Lapua brass is cheaper, and you can download the cartridge, as well as using 123's to 130 grain bullets. When I shot vintage sniper I had 140's loaded down to 2650 fps which was a soft recoiling load. HUGE difference in recoil compared to 30-06 in 1903's!!!

I betcha 3000-3500 rounds barrel life in 6.5x55 with N160 using lighter loads is doable.

 

[want2learn]

I measured the OEM magazine from the .308 Winchester Sig SSG3000 rifle:

If i measure the entire length of the magazine, i obtain a measure of 3.46 inch
if i only measure the length of the follower, i obtain a measure of 3.10 inch
the width between the feed lips, i obtain a measure of 0.352 inch
The beginning of the shoulder to the case head reads at 1 3/4 inch

so i think they would both fit..... that said, barrel life of 1600 rounds is a little concerning.

It's so tough to decide, earlier i had read that some particularly favorable attributes of the 6.5x47 L caliber were barrel life, accuracy and ease of securing an optimal load.

I never appreciated how expensive this sport would become for me...but i guess learning all of this is one part of what makes it a fascinating sport.

 

[ThePretzel]

It's so tough to decide, earlier i had read that some particularly favorable attributes of the 6.5x47 L caliber were barrel life, accuracy and ease of securing an optimal load.

6.5x47L has a much better barrel life than 6x47L. 6x47L will usually be on its way out by the time it hits 2,000 rounds at the latest, while 6.5x47L usually can make it to 3,000 rounds or so.

 

[want2learn]

thanks....i must have misread the information....that helps a lot

 

[atombomb]

As I've gotten out of hand loading, having a caliber I can buy, Prime, Hornady Match or Federal GMM box ammo and just go shoot well is a
wonderful thing. From all the things you've said, I like the 260 Remington as one of the other guys said. You can buy great comps to hand load, but
you can still buy ammo from several sources and barrel life should be really good. John Whidden has done some incredible feats with the 243, but
barrel life isn't stellar, just like many of the custom 6mm rounds. I loved shooting 6XC with 115 DTACs with 38.6gr of H4350 and got great performance
and barrel life along with excellent feeding from a magazine.

 

[want2learn]

a little follow up.....with an interesting observation:

I've been so frustrated with the recoil/battering i was feeling...i re-read all the above posts and figured i'd have little to lose by removing the muzzle brake....i brought a pistol along in case this was folly.

I reinstalled the stock from factory flash hider that came with the rifle.

Interestingly, and as suggested above, the battering i was experiencing was lessened without the muzzle brake.

I'm still not all that comfortable with the recoil from a .308. I must be much more sensitive to it than many but i must say that at least in my experience the concussive effect from the muzzle brake made things much worse for me.

So now i'm faced with the following question, do i spend another 150 dollars with the hopes of finding a less concussive and more effective brake?

If only i still had the magic 8 ball Mom threw away so many years ago.

 

[ThePretzel]

So now i'm faced with the following question, do i spend another 150 dollars with the hopes of finding a less concussive and more effective brake?

I've had good success with the PVA Jet Blast brake. It's designed to direct the blast rearwards but specifically away from the shooter. When I'm shooting with mine it definitely seems to do this, since I don't feel the same concussion from the brake as with some other options around. The recoil reduction on it is great too.

Only time I really notice significantly increased blast, compared to a bare muzzle, is shooting at an indoor range or any other range that's got solid dividers between lanes. There the muzzle blast redirection doesn't do much good since it just bounces off the wall to reach you anyways.

 

[want2learn]

thanks, that's good to hear....several have mentioned that model of muzzle brake so that seems like the most appropriate way to go.

Money is pretty tight for us right now, so i'll save a bit longer.

Hopefully they'll have a good sale in the coming weeks.

 

[myronman3]

i have a jp brake you can try...although i will tell you, you’ll feel blast. it should do away with the recoil. you can try it if you want to.

recoil or blast....aint no free lunch. But it does stop the recoil. Lmk

 

[myronman3]

What is the thread size on your gun?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I've been shooting the .260 at 100yd off and on since about mid-2002. I had a fairly heavy 308 and it definitely recoiled quite a bit heavier than the 260 (launching 175gr vs 140gr with the same case capacity). The .260 was definitely a 1000yd chambering, while the 308 seemed to be huffing and puffing a bit beyond 800yd. Also, due to heart surgery, I have a lower than average recoil tolerance.

Brass is easy, either the plain vanilla 308, or 7-08 for some savings and maybe better availability from time to time. Just run the 7-08 through the 260 Rem F/L die, and Bingo, you have .260. Case capacity is about as large as I'd want with a 6.5, barrel life is excellent for me, and the chambering takes a back seat to few (notably the 6.5-284, but that has bore life shortcomings vs the 260).

As a new 6.5 shooter, I'd point you directly at the 6.5CM, but the lack of suitable 260 match ammo is largely imaginary.

But seriously, if I wanted to learn distance shooting and wind, the 223 at 600-800yd is very competitive with the 6.5's at 1000yd, wind-skill-wise. A 24" bolt gun in .223 with a 1:8" twist and 75/77's is very effective at dispatching the wily paper beast at 600yd. Cabelas Savage 10T (the 10T 223's twist is 1:9", which works with the HDY 75gr HPBT-Match, but maybe not with the longer 75's. S'OK, though; the 1:9" twist on my Savage 11VT and 75 HPBT-M worked fine for me in 600yd competition.)

I'd say, get your wind skills and LR proficiency at 600-800 with the 223/5.56; then step up to the 6.5 at 1000 without eating up a lot of the 6.5's bore life on the more basic stuff. The same 10T is available in either chambering.

Greg

 

[want2learn]

hi, the thread size is listed as 5/8 X 24, would love to try out some options and see if i can get this rifle to work for me until i have enough funds and experience to ultimately re-barrel in a more favorable caliber.

I very much appreciate all the information on different caliber options, I'm going to take a class in the summer but in advance i'm trying to learn as much as i can and practice a lot until i can secure a different platform....plus it's a brand new rifle or almost brand new.

 

[myronman3]

Well pm me your address and i will drop it off in the mail for ya. If it doesnt work, send it back.

 

[want2learn]

Wow, thank you so very much. PM sent. very grateful.