Take a look at this video. What are your thoughts on this ND specifically?
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PRS Talk Negligent Discharges Need To Stop!
- Thread starter Cjwise5
- Start date
Hi,
Question for what happened right after video ended....
Did the shooter accept the extra point for impact on the ND?
Sincerely,
Theis
Question for what happened right after video ended....
Did the shooter accept the extra point for impact on the ND?
Sincerely,
Theis
Whats to discuss? ND, then go home. Thats how every other shooting sport I'm aware of works.
The shooter did not admit to the ND and even got an extra point because the RO's didn't see the impact. @TonyTheTiger this is supposed to result in a match DQ, but all kinds of things went wrong.
I didn't even know it happened until I got home and started editing all my video footage. Then I found it.
Shooter either doesn’t know the rules or doesn’t have integrity. But we aren’t going to solve the integrity issue until we solve the RO shortage problem. Not enough eyes to watch the shooter and the target leaves room for things like this to happen.
Hi,
The shooter knew exactly what happened...look at his reaction and raising his hand as in WTF.
Sincerely,
Theis
The shooter knew exactly what happened...look at his reaction and raising his hand as in WTF.
Sincerely,
Theis
There's just not enough eyes. Integrity falls on the individual but we all need to have examples made... good, honest and bad if need be. This isn't a safe space for everyone's feelings. Facts don't care about your feelings and neither do bullets.
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
At what point when the same shooter commits X number of these egregious violations does the organization take his weapon and ban them from participating ever again?
Yes the shooter knew that something went wrong but was he not aiming down range where targets were? was he not on the glass looking through the optic AT said targets?
I think he pulled his shot way earlier but he didn't sent a round in the wrong direction.
I think of a match were it was a timed event and the whole team had to have their shots off in a certain time. If you couldn't find the targets fast enough you just sent them down range at whatever you could find. Was this reason to be sent home? Shooting at the dirt as fast as you can because you screwed the pooch and lost your target through the scope and wanted your team to be able to make up the points. Or should you just burn up all the time by searching for the correct target?
Different opinion of what is the correct answer I imagine. I do agree however he should not have taken the point in no way shape or form. One thing I do appreciate about this sport and all shooting sports for the most part is people are honest. I would have said no call and I know I pulled the shot and not center punched it.
Hard to center punch it when you hold left edge ALL day.
I think he pulled his shot way earlier but he didn't sent a round in the wrong direction.
I think of a match were it was a timed event and the whole team had to have their shots off in a certain time. If you couldn't find the targets fast enough you just sent them down range at whatever you could find. Was this reason to be sent home? Shooting at the dirt as fast as you can because you screwed the pooch and lost your target through the scope and wanted your team to be able to make up the points. Or should you just burn up all the time by searching for the correct target?
Different opinion of what is the correct answer I imagine. I do agree however he should not have taken the point in no way shape or form. One thing I do appreciate about this sport and all shooting sports for the most part is people are honest. I would have said no call and I know I pulled the shot and not center punched it.
Hard to center punch it when you hold left edge ALL day.
If the gun discharges without the intent of the shooter, in this case because he accidentally touched the trigger, it's a negligent discharge.
Doesn't matter if the gun is pointed down range, the shooter is on glass, etc. The firearm discharging clearly surprised him - he did not intend for the gun to fire at that moment, thus ND.
This "well the gun was pointed down range" nonsense is pretty ridiculous, and is an example of the attitude the OP is trying to highlight.
Yes, it should be the end of the day for the shooter. They could stay and help RO, but they should be done shooting for the day and DQ'd from the match.
The easiest solution for this sort of thing is to have one RO dedicated to watching the shooter and running time, plus a second spotter/score keeper on glass. There's no way to have one person doing all of it and still watch a shooter for safety violations.
Besides the growing number of questions in my head reference what should be done about ND's in general - this boils down to not knowing where that round went. The round was unaccounted for. It likely left the range all together. That's unacceptable.
I’ve personally witnessed a negligent discharge from a gentlemen simply closing his bolt. He ran the bolt and soon as he locked the lugs: bang! Guy never touched the trigger. That’s scary shit! Me thinks a lot of these guys must be running ultra light Benchrest type triggers? That aren’t quite suitable for field/prs use? And yeh, I saw the gentlemen in this video’s suprise when he nd. He knew it for sure.
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
That is why we have the correct danger space when the range was designed. It probably landed in that space for what it was designed to do. It is part of the range.
I also believe that if an RO had actually been watching that he would have been stopped but for you guys that actually shoot matches the RO's are staring through glass the whole time and do not really see what is actually going on at the shooter level.
That's why there is so much "gaming" going on and why you have rifles falling off of props.
In the USPSA world rounds get sent down range a lot when they are not meant to but if you are actually pointing in the direction of the target how do you classify it as a true ND? Gun point in the right direction? yes Round go towards the target? yes Did the round fly over the berm? no Was the shooter actually ready to shoot? who knows....
That's why there is so much "gaming" going on and why you have rifles falling off of props.
In the USPSA world rounds get sent down range a lot when they are not meant to but if you are actually pointing in the direction of the target how do you classify it as a true ND? Gun point in the right direction? yes Round go towards the target? yes Did the round fly over the berm? no Was the shooter actually ready to shoot? who knows....
I've been shoting precision rifle for a year. I come from a back ground of uspsa, idpa, 3 gun and Skeet. I am very suprised at the lack of attention to safety protocols at many of the matches I have been to. The fact that the Ro gave the shooter a point because she did not see a splash is,I'm my mind anyway, an indication that the range and match is not tightly run.
I gear there are a lack of RO's often. That's bullshit. if safety is everyone business than everyone on the squad needs to serve as a RO.
I would suggest that something similar to what the USPSA and IDPA do and that is they involve the entire squad, at least at the smaller local shoots. there is always a dedicated RO, and they are in charge of safety. They are the one watching the shooter at all times. shooters will take turns running the stage and scoring the stage. When the RI shoots, the most experienced shooter acts as a safety.
Why are ND's happening? simple, there is no ramification when it happens. Why isn't it sled more? because even if there is someone watching your every move, what do you call a ND and what do you call a bad shop. except for very obvious and or agrieous violations, like this one, it is very difficult to tell. if a guy is on the gun and behind the glass and has a ND while transitioning the crosshairs from one target to the next, is that a ND? yes. but how do you determin it? say my bullet impacts 10 feet to the right, are we going to start using that as a way to determine what a ND is? Because of the difficult in determining an ND, I think that makes people hesitant to call one. that,and the fact that many RO'S have there eye behind the glass and not on the shooter.
Do what fo we do to change the culture?
Adopt the USPSA safety protocols. customize them to our sport and create SOP'S So that every safety brief at every match is identical. reinforce at each stage.
Start reinforcing range safety by becoming stricter on safety rules. an example would be someone leaving the line with mag in or no ECI. The safety should start yelling mag mag mag. you get one warning then a stage dq and then a match. Its basicly thete but not enforced.
Develop a RO hand book to give to someone who will be a full time ro at a match. give it to anyone else wants it.
Safety is something that is pushed from the top down. Change won't happen till the people at the top start making safety a priority. When a few people start getting a DQ, I believe you will start to see more willingness for people to call for it.
I gear there are a lack of RO's often. That's bullshit. if safety is everyone business than everyone on the squad needs to serve as a RO.
I would suggest that something similar to what the USPSA and IDPA do and that is they involve the entire squad, at least at the smaller local shoots. there is always a dedicated RO, and they are in charge of safety. They are the one watching the shooter at all times. shooters will take turns running the stage and scoring the stage. When the RI shoots, the most experienced shooter acts as a safety.
Why are ND's happening? simple, there is no ramification when it happens. Why isn't it sled more? because even if there is someone watching your every move, what do you call a ND and what do you call a bad shop. except for very obvious and or agrieous violations, like this one, it is very difficult to tell. if a guy is on the gun and behind the glass and has a ND while transitioning the crosshairs from one target to the next, is that a ND? yes. but how do you determin it? say my bullet impacts 10 feet to the right, are we going to start using that as a way to determine what a ND is? Because of the difficult in determining an ND, I think that makes people hesitant to call one. that,and the fact that many RO'S have there eye behind the glass and not on the shooter.
Do what fo we do to change the culture?
Adopt the USPSA safety protocols. customize them to our sport and create SOP'S So that every safety brief at every match is identical. reinforce at each stage.
Start reinforcing range safety by becoming stricter on safety rules. an example would be someone leaving the line with mag in or no ECI. The safety should start yelling mag mag mag. you get one warning then a stage dq and then a match. Its basicly thete but not enforced.
Develop a RO hand book to give to someone who will be a full time ro at a match. give it to anyone else wants it.
Safety is something that is pushed from the top down. Change won't happen till the people at the top start making safety a priority. When a few people start getting a DQ, I believe you will start to see more willingness for people to call for it.
@regnar375 I agree with some of the things you're saying, but please don't be tempted to blame the range or the match director. They had nothing to do with it. The blame for this ND falls on the shooter alone. The stage was staffed by two RO's, one of whom is fairly experienced. I don't personally agree with the call to give the shooter that extra point, but I don't think it was her fault in any way. If she was on glass the whole time, then she did nothing wrong. The video is about the ND. I'd rather not start bashing the RO's in this case.
Stupid easy answer to you question:
The the gun go bang when you intended?
If the answer is no, it’s negligent. No gray area here.
This doesn’t mean the shooter is a bad guy or he should never shoot a match again.
We ALL have had ND’s. Let’s call it what it is and quit being millennials about it. The gun goes off when you didn’t intend it to = you fucked up. Go home and fix it. See you at the next match.
We have velocity limits on our rifles to save steel; is it time to implement a minimum trigger weight for people safety?
Need to stop using the term “accidental” and always use “negligent.”
The “accidental” was caused by negligence on our part. If there is a machanical problem, sure, call it whatever you want. Things break and that can be a no fault accident without negligence.
Here is the part everyone is overlooking. Sure, there was no one down range and it was pointed in the right direction.
So, he got NONE I repeat NONE of the four safety rules rifht. Let’s go over them:
1: Treat every weapon as if it were loaded
(He put his hand into the trigger guard negligently, so, on its face, he did not treat it like a loaded weapon)
I will give him that one though. Let’s say he treat it properly. He got number 1 rifht, benefit of the doubt.
2: Never point the weapon at anything you are not willing to destroy.
(He has no clue were the rifle was actually pointed and the RO couldn’t even spot the shot)
Not giving him that one. No one had any earthly idea where that bullet went
3: Keep your finger off the trigger until you have target in your sights and are ready to shoot
(If you argue in favor of the shooter for this one, you’re an asshole and there is zero chance to have an honest debate with you)
4: Know your target and be aware of what’s behind it.
Well, maybe he knew his intended target. But he has zero idea what the actual target was when the round went off and thusly zero idea what was behind that target.
BEST case here, he got 25% of the safety rules right.
Are you ok with 25% safe? I’m not.
If we don’t hammer ourselves when we do something negligent even when the totality of the situation may have been “safe,” eventually we are going to be explaining to someone’s family why someone isn’t coming home from a fucking game.
The “accidental” was caused by negligence on our part. If there is a machanical problem, sure, call it whatever you want. Things break and that can be a no fault accident without negligence.
Here is the part everyone is overlooking. Sure, there was no one down range and it was pointed in the right direction.
So, he got NONE I repeat NONE of the four safety rules rifht. Let’s go over them:
1: Treat every weapon as if it were loaded
(He put his hand into the trigger guard negligently, so, on its face, he did not treat it like a loaded weapon)
I will give him that one though. Let’s say he treat it properly. He got number 1 rifht, benefit of the doubt.
2: Never point the weapon at anything you are not willing to destroy.
(He has no clue were the rifle was actually pointed and the RO couldn’t even spot the shot)
Not giving him that one. No one had any earthly idea where that bullet went
3: Keep your finger off the trigger until you have target in your sights and are ready to shoot
(If you argue in favor of the shooter for this one, you’re an asshole and there is zero chance to have an honest debate with you)
4: Know your target and be aware of what’s behind it.
Well, maybe he knew his intended target. But he has zero idea what the actual target was when the round went off and thusly zero idea what was behind that target.
BEST case here, he got 25% of the safety rules right.
Are you ok with 25% safe? I’m not.
If we don’t hammer ourselves when we do something negligent even when the totality of the situation may have been “safe,” eventually we are going to be explaining to someone’s family why someone isn’t coming home from a fucking game.
With weapon properly cleared:
Put your finger on trigger as you would before a shot. Make sure your shoulder is in the position against the stock you would use for the most recoil management you’d ever use in a match.
Close eyes and take a bunch of very deep breathes with shoulder in contact with stock and finger on trigger.
If it goes off, guess what?
Put your finger on trigger as you would before a shot. Make sure your shoulder is in the position against the stock you would use for the most recoil management you’d ever use in a match.
Close eyes and take a bunch of very deep breathes with shoulder in contact with stock and finger on trigger.
If it goes off, guess what?
Finger should NOT be on trigger until on target, PERIOD.
With weapon properly cleared, close bolt on empty chamber, safety off, and drop from 1-1.5ft on butt. If it goes off, fix/adjust trigger.
Duh, we are dry firing bubba.
You’re going to have your finger in trigger while the crosshairs are on target and you are going through breathing cycle.
Ignore him. He was telling people a Athlon Midas tac was as good as a Schmidt the other day.
He thinks safety rules are democratic control.
I can set a trigger tech diamond to 4oz and it will las a drop test.
Doesn’t make it safe with a shooter on it.
Doesn’t make it safe with a shooter on it.
Uhmm yeah. Guess what, if light triggers are creating a safety issue, then it needs to be looked at. Don't know how you decided to twist this into a political conversation. Host some matches and pay insurance premiums and get back to me. If there is a correlation between light triggers and ND's, what kind of fool do you have to be to not address it?
I would say the main culprit for ND's in our sport is simply getting in a hurry. However, all the NDs I've witnessed at matches, which is like two, was the exact same ND as the shooter in the video; hand brushed trigger guard a kaboom. I prefer a two stage trigger for this reason.
How is limiting trigger weight to say, 1 lb. mass punishment? I'm not talking about installing NY Glock triggers here. Why can't we have an honest conversation about it without you chiming in and trying to somehow equate said conversation to democrats?
Yep, being in a hurry + light triggers are bad news.
That’s why we have speed limits. At a certain point, our reaction time is too diminished.
At a certain weight, our trigger control just isn’t safe or within our physical limits.
I think 8oz seems to be the magic spot. Below that and it really gets iffy on control.
I have no data to back that up, but most “ooops” shots I see are under 8oz.
@Cjwise5 ,
Not blaming the RO'S or bashing them. the fault lies is in those at the top. as I said, a safety usnoused down thru an orginazation. I am not bashing RO's. I am pointing out that the both the process and the culture leads to RO's not being able to identify any safety violation as well as making it u comfortable to call one.
I agree that this is about the ND. But you asked what can we do to stop it. trigger weight has nothing to do with it. if your finger is on the trigger when your not ready you are committing a safety violation. can it happen easier with a lighter trigger? sure. But because it may not happen with a heavier trigger does not mean that the person did not have a safety violation. if the shooter in your video had a 2# trigger and the rifle had not gone off, would that have been a safety violation?
If you want to stop ND's from happening education and enforcement is the way to make it happen. If the top shooters know that they will get a dq for a ND, two things will happen. Either they will increase their trigher weight so they dont have an ops moment or when one of them I gets a dq, others will notice. Either way you will effect change.
When I was in the service, in the unit I was in and the ones we trained with we had VERY VERY VERY few ND's. if you had one you we dx'd from the unit. I daw it happen, and I can tell you it was motivation to keep the finger off the food dam trigger until you are ready to shoot.
I do think that you posting this video and you starting this thread is a very food step towards making it happen.
The RO was on glass the entire time. She Didn’t do anything wrong. Let’s keep this about the ND.
These MDs plan matches to create stress. Stress and guns with light triggers are a bad combo. This guy was wrong, and he got away with it. He should have owned up.
Ive RO'd a metric fuck ton of matches. Of course the shooter shouldn't have been a dirt bag by not admitting to the ND and on top of that, accepting an extra point, but that exact scenario is why there has to be an RO not on glass but watching the shooter to call unsafe movements, cheating, not running the stage in the manner it was meant to, and ND's.
LoL, you can see the gears turning in that shooters head after he popped off that ND. "Oh shit, ND.. Did they see that? What should i do? I'll fuckin send it....."
LoL, you can see the gears turning in that shooters head after he popped off that ND. "Oh shit, ND.. Did they see that? What should i do? I'll fuckin send it....."
No, you are missing his point. He is saying punish the ones that fuck up, not everyone.
I'm not saying that having a minimum trigger weight would solve the issue, but I honestly think there is a percentage of ND's that happen because of triggers that are so light that either it makes the rifle mechanically unsafe, or the shooter mechanically unsafe. Whether that number is 20%, 50%, 80%, I do not know.
Hi,
I think everyone agrees there is a problem and shit....most even agree on what the solution is. The hurdle is implementing the solution.
Needed:
1. Range Officer: Monitors shooter, not targets.
2. Scorekeeper: Monitors target, not shooter.
3. MD: 1 million percent sides with RO on all safety calls. (If MD has reason to question RO then that person probably should not be RO)
Solution sounds super simple...until we realize there are not enough of Numbers 1 and 2 to go around for the number of matches being held.
So what does the industry/sport do to implement a solution is where the conversation should be heading...not whos fault a problem was/is.
Sincerely,
Theis
I think everyone agrees there is a problem and shit....most even agree on what the solution is. The hurdle is implementing the solution.
Needed:
1. Range Officer: Monitors shooter, not targets.
2. Scorekeeper: Monitors target, not shooter.
3. MD: 1 million percent sides with RO on all safety calls. (If MD has reason to question RO then that person probably should not be RO)
Solution sounds super simple...until we realize there are not enough of Numbers 1 and 2 to go around for the number of matches being held.
So what does the industry/sport do to implement a solution is where the conversation should be heading...not whos fault a problem was/is.
Sincerely,
Theis
i think i saw somewhere the Mason Dixon Precision Rifle series group is making shooters volunteer to RO at least one match if they want to attend the finale.
or something along those lines.
not a terrible idea.
Exactly.
If you didn't artificially create stress and make things a big speed race, a lot of problems may be eliminated on their own.
I'm assuming however people aren't as happy when it's all about skill and not the speed and you only shoot like 20 rounds for the entire match.
as said before in other threads...
its not our fault that we have grown past the current capacity of the sport:
to many stages in one area causing a traffic jam
"area not suitable for intended use" (FDA term with equipment), cant squeeze 10 shooters in a space only made for 5
not adequate proper staging area/racks for rifles causing flagging
proper danger space behind targets
and those are just some of the physical issues
for the league no to have adequate referee staff or to implement and consequence violations is criminal...because one day some one is getting shot and die...and someone is going to jail...
Negligent homicide is the killing of another person through gross negligence or without malice.
if the NFL doesnt have enough refs, they cant play the game. its in their rule books.
its on the governing body to do their job, and doing that usually means disappointing current customers
time for them to put their big boy pants on and make a decision.
its not our fault that we have grown past the current capacity of the sport:
to many stages in one area causing a traffic jam
"area not suitable for intended use" (FDA term with equipment), cant squeeze 10 shooters in a space only made for 5
not adequate proper staging area/racks for rifles causing flagging
proper danger space behind targets
and those are just some of the physical issues
for the league no to have adequate referee staff or to implement and consequence violations is criminal...because one day some one is getting shot and die...and someone is going to jail...
Negligent homicide is the killing of another person through gross negligence or without malice.
if the NFL doesnt have enough refs, they cant play the game. its in their rule books.
its on the governing body to do their job, and doing that usually means disappointing current customers
time for them to put their big boy pants on and make a decision.
Another issue is the guy setting his gun up behind the shooter. People should not be handling their rifles unless shooting them or putting them on the ground/Safe Area. Breathing down the shooters neck does not help with the situation. It's his time on the line, not yours to prep.
With all due respect-if you are gonna video yourself doing an op-Ed in front of a banner that implies you are an expert in the precision rifle community, and you are going to say that a match having the RO on glass and not on the shooter is OK, you sir are part of the problem.
ND’s will happen. Shooters will do unsafe movements. Gamers will cheat... These are facts.
RO’s and MD’s not immediately DQing people (either because of sponsor or clique status, or not wanting to hurt feelings) are why you are even talking about this.
This is not a new phenomenon, and is the exact reason many good shooters (myself included) left the sport.
We’re not shooting nerf guns, high velocity rifles kill-RO’s being there for scoring and not safety, and as this example showed-actually rewarding the behavior, is complete and utter bullshit.
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One RO is supposed to be on glass the whole time. Is that not understood somehow? She was doing her job. Spot impacts and misses. The other RO that was there was supposed to be keeping score, watching the timer, and watching the shooter. The 8-12 other people in the squad could/should have been watching the shooter for errors as well.
I see your point. I’ve RO’d and came off glass to watch shooters transition and it was difficult for me to get back on target and spot in time to see the shot. If I didnt get on glass in time and missed the spot I would have felt like a dumbass, but I wanted things safe under my watch. It’s just too much for one RO. We’ve proven shooters will not police themselves now it’s time for something to change.
I’ve chosen to not compete anymore. The drama, lack of safety and shooters pulling shit like in the video makes me not want to be associated with this anymore.
Carry on.
The more video we have the more this will demonstrate the issues I have been complaining about. With the series competing for eyeballs against each other, the amount of media coming from both camps will make it harder to hide this stuff.
In the past you have me bitching and moaning about this stuff and without actual "Proof" of these things happening it's tough to react properly. So they can go on a campaign of shooting the messenger. they get to say I am disgruntled, irrelevant, etc because it's me against the series, and the series wants this stuff quiet. So you have two choices, be vocal in hopes they quietly adjust the rules when nobody is looking or keep your mouth shut. That is mostly what happens because guys see the flak the ones who point stuff out get so why skyline yourself over someone else's mistake.
Even as a MD you get 1/2 dozen shooters to come up to you after a match when everyone is leaving the parking lot and they tell about the rules they saw broken. We see this stuff and nobody wants to be That Guy and stop the stage or tell the RO in real time. They feel that if they say something after the fact, they still said something but not in a way to cause an issue.
We have to cause an issue.
The heavy rifles, light triggers, zippy calibers, one of these rounds is gonna get away and cause an issue. Doesn't have to be lethal, just has to hit a house and you have closed that range down indefinitely, not to mention the bad PR after the fact.
It's clear with all these matches they are understaffed. You need someone watching the shooter, just as much as watching the target. I would almost advocate for the "On Deck" shooter to do it, but you know, not cheating, not trying. How about the shooter that finished the stage being the scorekeeper for the guy behind him. They are shorthanded and need an extra set of eyes. That is painfully clear, as even in the finale video the RO did not react. I am not saying Laura was at fault here, she is scoring, and can't watch two things at once, so we need an extra pair of eyes.
8oz triggers, support side, (support side is the #1 cause of this) is it gonna be like when the guy grazed his leg with a handgun and they decided no more handgun? What is next nothing that takes the shooter out of their comfort zone because they can't handle it?
In the past you have me bitching and moaning about this stuff and without actual "Proof" of these things happening it's tough to react properly. So they can go on a campaign of shooting the messenger. they get to say I am disgruntled, irrelevant, etc because it's me against the series, and the series wants this stuff quiet. So you have two choices, be vocal in hopes they quietly adjust the rules when nobody is looking or keep your mouth shut. That is mostly what happens because guys see the flak the ones who point stuff out get so why skyline yourself over someone else's mistake.
Even as a MD you get 1/2 dozen shooters to come up to you after a match when everyone is leaving the parking lot and they tell about the rules they saw broken. We see this stuff and nobody wants to be That Guy and stop the stage or tell the RO in real time. They feel that if they say something after the fact, they still said something but not in a way to cause an issue.
We have to cause an issue.
The heavy rifles, light triggers, zippy calibers, one of these rounds is gonna get away and cause an issue. Doesn't have to be lethal, just has to hit a house and you have closed that range down indefinitely, not to mention the bad PR after the fact.
It's clear with all these matches they are understaffed. You need someone watching the shooter, just as much as watching the target. I would almost advocate for the "On Deck" shooter to do it, but you know, not cheating, not trying. How about the shooter that finished the stage being the scorekeeper for the guy behind him. They are shorthanded and need an extra set of eyes. That is painfully clear, as even in the finale video the RO did not react. I am not saying Laura was at fault here, she is scoring, and can't watch two things at once, so we need an extra pair of eyes.
8oz triggers, support side, (support side is the #1 cause of this) is it gonna be like when the guy grazed his leg with a handgun and they decided no more handgun? What is next nothing that takes the shooter out of their comfort zone because they can't handle it?
