Never seen this before, what am I dealing with here?

[skyfire1201]

So I was testing my 308 handloads in my Colt 901 when I noticed a round didn't sound normal. Low and behold, the ejected casing showed a small pin hole at the edge of the primer, and it pitted the bolt face as well. At first I thought this is a sign of high pressure, except it happened randomly on my lowest charge weight as well. Then I thought the problem lies with the LC brass, except the same thing happened with Lapua brass loads as well. The only remaining common factor was the primer (WLR), gun and bullet (SMK 175), with the primer being the prime suspect. So I contacted Winchester customer support and sent the remaining primers in for testing. The tech tested them and reported the primer didn't show any manufacturing issues, and asked me to have the rifle checked?!? Except the rifle is factory Colt and shot all factory ammo just fine.

I've handloaded plenty of 223/300blk/9mm and have never seen this problem before. Now I'm really baffled, what may be going on here?

 

[TheBoctor]

Actually coming out of the primer or is it coming out between the primer and the pocket?

 

[Tokay444]

Pressure. Blowing primers and flame cutting your bolt face.
Ejector swipes galore in that box.

 

[spife7980]

Sounds exactly like I would expect with a Winchester primer.

 

[Tokay444]

How many firings on the brass at those pressures?

 

[Ravenworks]

What is the Grey material?

 

[straightshooter1]

So I was testing my 308 handloads in my Colt 901 when I noticed a round didn't sound normal. Low and behold, the ejected casing showed a small pin hole at the edge of the primer, and it pitted the bolt face as well. At first I thought this is a sign of high pressure, except it happened randomly on my lowest charge weight as well. Then I thought the problem lies with the LC brass, except the same thing happened with Lapua brass loads as well. The only remaining common factor was the primer (WLR), gun and bullet (SMK 175), with the primer being the prime suspect. So I contacted Winchester customer support and sent the remaining primers in for testing. The tech tested them and reported the primer didn't show any manufacturing issues, and asked me to have the rifle checked?!? Except the rifle is factory Colt and shot all factory ammo just fine.

I've handloaded plenty of 223/300blk/9mm and have never seen this problem before. Now I'm really baffled, what may be going on here?

View attachment 7493096

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Besides Winchester primers tending to being a bit hotter than some others, their dimensions may also be a factor for you (depending on the depth your cases primer pockets are). Note in the picture below how much higher they are from other LR primers:

 

[redbullitt]

Load data?

 

[Mad_Charlie]

A few years ago there were quite a few reports of WLR primers perforating like that, at the edge, like that. There were a lot of primers replaced and more than a few bolts too, IIRC. Looks like you got one of the bad batches that were still out there.

A couple of things can cause ejector swipes besides pressure.

I don't use WLR primers unless they are nickle plated. And I don't find those anymore.

 

[pmclaine]

I ran thousands of winchester primers in 30-06 using HXP Korean KA military cases that had been crimped.

Garand and 03 use.

They are on their 5th or so reload and the primer pockets are just getting loose that I see primers backed out slightly.

but no gas jetting

until

I started using WIN LRPs in FC brass with my bolt gun.

and now I have some bolts that had been pristine from the builder that now have divots.

It was a little while before I learned it was incompatibility between FC brass and WLRPs.

I learned this just after I had bought a case of 5000 WLRPs.

I will only buy Fed or CCI primers from now on.

But those 5000 WLRPs are now worth their weight in gold. I aint tossing them.

Just loaded some WLRPs in HXP mil 30-06 cases that had been crimped and the primer pocket is tight.

 

[supercorndogs]

Those look just like the problem lots of WIN primers. They were making pin holes right at the corner of the cup.

 

[918v]

Winchester Primer Recall | Single-Actions

Probably should have put this in the reloading section but I figured it will get seen more here. Anyone heard anything about a Winchester primer recall ? Is this something old,new,true, or inte

singleactions.proboards.com

 

[FLIGHT762]

O/P, check your primer lot # with the link that 918v posted. You might have a lot that had been reported. I had this same issue a number of years ago with some Remington # 9 primers. They burnt through the top edge just like your's did. I only had a few hundred and tossed them out.

 

[skyfire1201]

Pressure. Blowing primers and flame cutting your bolt face.
Ejector swipes galore in that box.

That's what I originally thought, except those blown primers were on the low end of the charge weight, and I strictly stick to the book, starting with 39.3gr of N140 and never exceeded 41.4gr, which is the book max.

 

[skyfire1201]

How many firings on the brass at those pressures?

Most of the brass was once fired LC. Judging from how much work I needed to resize them, I'm guessing they were fired from an MG. The Lapua only had 1 prior firing, with 41.4gr of N140, the max according to VV reloading manual.

 

[skyfire1201]

Actually coming out of the primer or is it coming out between the primer and the pocket?

Looks like it's coming from between the primer and the pocket, as if the primer didn't completely seal the pocket and I'm getting a "leak".

 

[skyfire1201]

Load data?

SMK 175gr, once fired LC, WLR primer and VV N140 from 39.3gr to 41.4gr. The leaky primer (if that's what it is) came from the low end of the charge weights, one each at 39.7, 40.2 and 40.6. Ironically the higher charge weights, 41.0 and 41.4 didn't suffer from this effect, though with only 5 rounds at each weight it's not large enough of a sample size to draw any conclusions.

The single Lapua case with that problem came from a prior batch with 41.4gr of N140, same bullet and primer. When I developed this load last year I didn't have this problem, and I examined every fired casing for pressure signs.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Looks like the bolt is unlocking under pressure. Ejector swipes from a gas gun aren't necessarily a sign of excessive chamber pressure.

 

[skyfire1201]

A few years ago there were quite a few reports of WLR primers perforating like that, at the edge, like that. There were a lot of primers replaced and more than a few bolts too, IIRC. Looks like you got one of the bad batches that were still out there.

A couple of things can cause ejector swipes besides pressure.

I don't use WLR primers unless they are nickle plated. And I don't find those anymore.

I did some Googling and found similar articles, which is why I contacted Winchester support to have them take a look. Except they reported " the primer didn't show any manufacturing issues", and issued me a refund at MSRP. I wonder how many primers they tested to reach that conclusion :-/

 

[skyfire1201]

I ran thousands of winchester primers in 30-06 using HXP Korean KA military cases that had been crimped.

Garand and 03 use.

They are on their 5th or so reload and the primer pockets are just getting loose that I see primers backed out slightly.

but no gas jetting

until

I started using WIN LRPs in FC brass with my bolt gun.

and now I have some bolts that had been pristine from the builder that now have divots.

It was a little while before I learned it was incompatibility between FC brass and WLRPs.

I learned this just after I had bought a case of 5000 WLRPs.

I will only buy Fed or CCI primers from now on.

But those 5000 WLRPs are now worth their weight in gold. I aint tossing them.

Just loaded some WLRPs in HXP mil 30-06 cases that had been crimped and the primer pocket is tight.

I wish I had known that before going the WLRP route. Fortunately, I scored a few bricks of CCI #34 recently, figured military brass w/ military primer should make a good combo. Time will tell.

WRT the bolt face divots, is that purely a cosmetic issues or will it cause precision/reliability/other problems?

 

[skyfire1201]

O/P, check your primer lot # with the link that 918v posted. You might have a lot that had been reported. I had this same issue a number of years ago with some Remington # 9 primers. They burnt through the top edge just like your's did. I only had a few hundred and tossed them out.

I checked and my specific lot didn't appear in that list, though the author of that thread reply said those are only the reported lot numbers, and does not include all the problematic lots. I was hoping they'd replace rather than refund the primers, but the CS person said they don't directly sell to individual customers :-/

 

[skyfire1201]

Looks like the bolt is unlocking under pressure. Ejector swipes from a gas gun aren't necessarily a sign of excessive chamber pressure.

So is my gun over gassed? I noticed the ejector swipes on pretty much all my brass, including most of the factory ammo. What causes ejector swipes in a gas gun, and should I be concerned?

 

[pmclaine]

I wish I had known that before going the WLRP route. Fortunately, I scored a few bricks of CCI #34 recently, figured military brass w/ military primer should make a good combo. Time will tell.

WRT the bolt face divots, is that purely a cosmetic issues or will it cause precision/reliability/other problems?

WLRPs have been used by many.

I loaded 65 up in Win 1X 30-06 yesterday.

Going forward I wont load any in FC brass and I watch pressure.

Bolt face issue is cosmetic only unless allowed to continue.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

So is my gun over gassed? I noticed the ejector swipes on pretty much all my brass, including most of the factory ammo. What causes ejector swipes in a gas gun, and should I be concerned?

Probably yes. I don't know if the primer leakage is related though.