New Build Help. 284 Win or 280 Ackley Improved?

[Ocean_Dweller]

Hello, I'm almost done finalizing the details on a new target/hunting build and all that's left is deciding the caliber and wanted to know your opinions on both of these. I've also read pretty much every thread on here concerning these two calibers and I'm still undecided. I was almost dead set on getting a 280AI but when Lapua announced brass for the 284 Win that wouldn't have to be necked up, the 284 definitely got my attention. As it is right now, I have an XLR Envy Pro, Bighorn TL3 LA, and will probably go with a 24" Shilen Pre-fit. My main goal is to build a rifle with a round that flies and kicks like a 6.5 creed but hits harder and I'm pretty sure I can accomplish this with either of these two rounds.

Where I'm torn is that I want to go with a 24" barrel to keep things compact but would like to get at least 2800 fps out of 180gr bullets. Probably hard to do with the 284 but doable with the 280AI. Since I load all my own ammo, I'm more concerned with the quality of available brass than anything else. Any of you guys have experience with both calibers and can make a suggestion? Are they comparable in accuracy since the 284 has such an F Class following? Thanks in advance.

 

[CerebralDistortion]

Noslers 280AI brass is good enough. If you don't mind fiddling a bit, 30-06 and 7x64 will work as well, though the 06 brass may be a bit short in the neck.

For me the 284 Win is a no go. Its limited due to max COAL when loaded in a magazine and reduces mag capacity by one.

6.5-284 is another matter, but then you are nowhere near 180 gr bullets.

If these are things that matter for you or not...

 

[kyzim311]

You will have a hard time getting 2800 from the 284, and the 280 AI will be close. If you didn't have the action I would tell you to go to a magnum bolt face round. Other option to consider is one of the 284 improved cartridges (284 Shehane for example), but that has its own problems. For the velocity you want, 280 AI should get you close. I would count on 2700-2750 from a 24" tube.

 

[Delicatessen]

284 win or 280ai are both good options. 284 is only really limited in a short action; long actions are quite capable. I have a 28” that has good accuracy just under 2900 with 180s. 2800 could possibly work with 24 but maybe a little under, have a 26” barrel that in high accuracy node is right around 2850. But 280AI has a little more room with the shorter barrel. Be aware Peterson is making/going to make 280AI brass. 284 has a few good options including lapua and Peterson.

 

[supercorndogs]

Noslers 280AI brass is good enough. If you don't mind fiddling a bit, 30-06 and 7x64 will work as well, though the 06 brass may be a bit short in the neck.

For me the 284 Win is a no go. Its limited due to max COAL when loaded in a magazine and reduces mag capacity by one.

6.5-284 is another matter, but then you are nowhere near 180 gr bullets.

If these are things that matter for you or not...

You would want to use 270 brass. It is the same length as 280. I was about to make some 280 from 270, then I found some brass.

I looked at the 280AI, but I never liked the way my 243AI fed. So i went 280.

 

[FredIII]

280AI Lapua 30-06 brass and leave the die tall and leave a false shoulder.
162 elds at 2900 forming with imr 7977
The 280ai is the best thing to ever happen to a 06 case

 

[FredIII]

You would want to use 270 brass. It is the same length as 280. I was about to make some 280 from 270, then I found some brass.

I looked at the 280AI, but I never liked the way my 243AI fed. So i went 280.

I believe the longer hull smooths things out. The five I load for in Remington and cooper actions feed like a fat girl at a Golden Corral. The aics mags make it even better.

 

[supercorndogs]

Peterson makes 280 and 270 brass.

 

[Ocean_Dweller]

You would want to use 270 brass. It is the same length as 280. I was about to make some 280 from 270, then I found some brass.

I looked at the 280AI, but I never liked the way my 243AI fed. So i went 280.

This is also a concern of mine just by looking at the 280AI's shoulder.

I believe the longer hull smooths things out. The five I load for in Remington and cooper actions feed like a fat girl at a Golden Corral. The aics mags make it even better.View attachment 7497579

Fred, have you ever had any issues with the 280AI jamming on you? Either caliber is going in a TL3 long action so I'll have plenty of room.

 

[FredIII]

This is also a concern of mine just by looking at the 280AI's shoulder.



Fred, have you ever had any issues with the 280AI jamming on you? Either caliber is going in a TL3 long action so I'll have plenty of room.

No never have. But I have been lucky and gotten 243ai and 7-08ai’s to feed also.
the only problem I have ever had is the 243ai out of the shit MDT plastic 10 rounders. When feed with good mags zero issues.
As to the 280ai the five I load for
1, 721 that’s been action bored and a Over sized PTG bolt
2 x Remington 700’s standard BDLs
1, stiller predator with Wyatt box and follower and PTG bdl
And 1 cooper that uses cooper mags
All feed like a dream.

 

[supercorndogs]

I didn't mean they didn't feed, they fed ok. i meant they didn't feed as smoothly as cases with less shoulder angle and more taper. .308 slides out of an AI mag into the chamber better than 6 Creed. The smoothest long action AI mags I have used are the Magpul.

 

[Jigstick]

Do a 6.5wsm or 6.5PRC on a medium length Defiance action with their medium length BDL bottom metal. I built my 300 wsm with that setup and I’m getting 3160fps with 168g projectiles. Necked down to .264 you’ll get some screaming MV if that’s what you’re after. If not then dial it back to preserve barrel life. Mine kicks like my 6.5x47 with the brake on it.

 

[FredIII]

I didn't mean they didn't feed, they fed ok. i meant they didn't feed as smoothly as cases with less shoulder angle and more taper. .308 slides out of an AI mag into the chamber better than 6 Creed. The smoothest long action AI mags I have used are the Magpul.

Copy that! I’m having good luck with the MDT steal mags, binder or no binder are the same given COAL. Also been using accurate wsm for my 6.5 gap and love them.

 

[ECP307]

The 280AI would probably be the better choice if you’re set on the 24” barrel and reaching 2800 with 180’s. I haven’t tried 180’s in mine yet, but I run 162 ELD’s at 2950 out of a 24” tube. Mine is on a trued Rem 700 BDL and I’ve never had any feeding issues. As far as brass I have always ran Nosler which has been pretty darn good. Thinking about trying Peterson for my next go round.

 

[CerebralDistortion]

You would want to use 270 brass. It is the same length as 280. I was about to make some 280 from 270, then I found some brass.

I looked at the 280AI, but I never liked the way my 243AI fed. So i went 280.

An oversight on my part. I'm not overly fond of the 270. Nothing wrong with it, just not interesting.

And as others have said. The longer the case, the less chance the 40° shoulder will cause any problems.

 

[FredIII]

seen this used here on a different thread and thought it fit.

Cause no one knew they would feed “cept you. Absolutely priceless.
No one knows what you are talking about! The OP ask about the 280ai and the 284 win. Nothing about 270win and 280’s kinda funny how that worked out.
If someone asks 284 or 280ai the answer is probably not 270 to make 280.

All feed like a dream and blew holes in fur. PSS multiple victims.

 

[supercorndogs]

seen this used here on a different thread and thought it fit.
View attachment 7500854
Cause no one knew they would feed “cept you. Absolutely priceless.
No one knows what you are talking about! The OP ask about the 280ai and the 284 win. Nothing about 270win and 280’s kinda funny how that worked out.
If someone asks 284 or 280ai the answer is probably not 270 to make 280.
View attachment 7500866All feed like a dream and blew holes in fur. PSS multiple victims.

Cant even type the point you're trying to make. Absolutely priceless.

You would want to make 280AI, out of brass with a long enough neck also, Chief. Not 30/06 or 25/06.

You spend all week grinding your axe and trying to think of some clever insults and this is all you have? Trying to resurrect an old discussion and turn it into an argument. I probably shouldn't call you chief. You seem more like a Karen.

 

[FredIII]

Cant even type the point you're trying to make. Absolutely priceless.

You would want to make 280AI, out of brass with a long enough neck also, Chief. Not 30/06 or 25/06.

You spend all week grinding your axe and trying to think of some clever insults and this is all you have? Trying to resurrect an old discussion and turn it into an argument. I probably shouldn't call you chief. You seem more like a Karen.

Laughing that you give advice and don’t run one because you KNOW. Then toss Karen in.

 

[supercorndogs]

Oh, doubt you're laughing if you sat around all week thinking about me, changing your reactions to my posts. Just like good Karen you want drama, and not discussion. You liked the post week ago, but now its WOW, and Funny. It made sense a week ago, but now you want to argue. No biggie I doubt you will be here long.

270 and 280 make better 280AI brass than 30/06 because of neck length. More taper and less angle on the shoulders feeds easier. Any dispute? If so feel free to PM it to yourself, because its utter bullshit, its goes against the laws of physics. But you keep it up, everyone has been so impressed with your Bravado, and your depth of knowledge.

 

[jsthntn247]

280 AI and find some N560 or Re 26

 

[Just Macca]

Luck on the particular barrel you happen to choose will probably effect your velocity more than the 100fps everyone is arguing over.
Brass dependent; both factory cases hold around 66-67gr H2O. Improving the 280 probably buys you 8-10 more gr's (Maybe 100fps?)

Lapua make 284win brass, you said that brass is one the biggest concerns for the cartridge choice.
I wouldn't over complicate life if I were you, just go for what works.

 

[Ocean_Dweller]

Thanks for all of the comments guys. Decided on a .284 and put the order in at NSS for a Shilen Pre-Fit yesterday afternoon along with DLC coated TL3. Really looking forward to this build and taking it out to 1k and seeing how these 7mm bullets perform compared to the others I've tried.

 

[Joel Danielson]

Good choice, especially out of a magazine fed action. I shot with a guy (f-class) that tried the 280AI for one season. He was trying to get that "next level" of velocity to help in misread wind calls, but ended up going back to the 284 after most of us kicked his ass all year...

 

[Ocean_Dweller]

Good choice, especially out of a magazine fed action. I shot with a guy (f-class) that tried the 280AI for one season. He was trying to get that "next level" of velocity to help in misread wind calls, but ended up going back to the 284 after most of us kicked his ass all year...

Thanks, the BC numbers I'm seeing on these 7mm bullets definitely have me intrigued. Joel, can you tell me which bullets you guys were using with the 284 when shooting F Class and your twist? I was initially going with a 9 twist barrel then James at NSS recommended I go with an 8 twist since I'm planning on going with the 184gr Bergers or 183gr Sierras.

 

[Joel Danielson]

Shooting Berger 180 hybrids in a 9 twist (Bartlein). I tried the 184's in that barrel, and it did not like them. If you are looking at either of the 183/184, I would be inclined to go with a 8.5 twist. The 8.75 twist barrel prior to my present tube shot the 183's just fine. I'm pretty good friends with the guy that just won f-open nationals, and has access to any new products that Berger wants tested. His comment to me was to stick with the 180's for the 284.

 

[Joel Danielson]

I should mention that I point and trim the meplates on the 180's, which helps raise the BC at bit.

 

[FredIII]

Oh, doubt you're laughing if you sat around all week thinking about me, changing your reactions to my posts. Just like good Karen you want drama, and not discussion. You liked the post week ago, but now its WOW, and Funny. It made sense a week ago, but now you want to argue. No biggie I doubt you will be here long.

270 and 280 make better 280AI brass than 30/06 because of neck length. More taper and less angle on the shoulders feeds easier. Any dispute? If so feel free to PM it to yourself, because its utter bullshit, its goes against the laws of physics. But you keep it up, everyone has been so impressed with your Bravado, and your depth of knowledge.

.040” is far from enough to drive me to 270 brass. The false shoulder just makes it to easy and Lapua making the brass seals the .040 to .045” not all that important. I don’t even mind the extra thickness. Peterson brass is ok but I like my flash holes drilled not punched. Done it both ways and the drill is far better.

knowledge you’re cute. Say you have tooled one of these up and I will bow out.


OP my apologies for the sidetrack.
My 284win loves the 180 Berger’s and the 168 Berger’s. With h4831 and RL 17

 

[supercorndogs]

Lapua flash holes are punched too Chief.

.040” is far from enough to drive me to 270 brass. The false shoulder just makes it to easy and Lapua making the brass seals the .040 to .045” not all that important. I don’t even mind the extra thickness. Peterson brass is ok but I like my flash holes drilled not punched. Done it both ways and the drill is far better.

knowledge you’re cute. Say you have tooled one of these up and I will bow out.


OP my apologies for the sidetrack.
My 284win loves the 180 Berger’s and the 168 Berger’s. With h4831 and RL 17

 

[Ocean_Dweller]

.040” is far from enough to drive me to 270 brass. The false shoulder just makes it to easy and Lapua making the brass seals the .040 to .045” not all that important. I don’t even mind the extra thickness. Peterson brass is ok but I like my flash holes drilled not punched. Done it both ways and the drill is far better.

knowledge you’re cute. Say you have tooled one of these up and I will bow out.


OP my apologies for the sidetrack.
My 284win loves the 180 Berger’s and the 168 Berger’s. With h4831 and RL 17

No worries, I appreciate the info, you guys have been very helpful. I spoke with Shilen today and they said it'll be about two months before I get the barrel. Hoping Lapua releases the 308 brass before then even though I'm tempted to go with Peterson this time.

Lapua flash holes are punched too Chief.

I've always heard they were drilled too but regardless, I love the consistency of Lapua. Two years ago I decided to run 2 different lot numbers of 308 brass through my labradar with the same load and the numbers didn't change one bit. So I decided to shoot them to the point of failure and I'm currently on load #14 and now is when I'm noticing my primer pockets getting a little loose. I'm even still running some Lapua .300WM brass I bought 15 years ago but that one only has 6 firings.

 

[supercorndogs]

I like Lapua, its pretty much the gold standard. I don't generally take it hunting. I have Winchester 300WM with 17, and LC 223 brass with 30+. I have also trashed Lapua 308 brass in 3.

Lapua brass has a punched primer pocket according to what I was told by them. People be spreading rumors, unless they changed their process in the last couple years. You will find some burrs sometimes as evidence. I had some boxes of Gold box Lapua 243 once with a bunch of burrs. I fired the burrs out fire forming brass and carried on. Its great great stuff no doubt. I have a box of 22-250 on its second barrel also. I take Win brass in the field though. Cheap ass, I know.

I am glad to see Lapau getting back into 300WM. I don't feel like there are many really good options right now.

 

[FredIII]

I like Lapua, its pretty much the gold standard. I don't generally take it hunting. I have Winchester 300WM with 17, and LC 223 brass with 30+. I have also trashed Lapua 308 brass in 3.

Lapua brass has a punched primer pocket according to what I was told by them. People be spreading rumors, unless they changed their process in the last couple years. You will find some burrs sometimes as evidence. I had some boxes of Gold box Lapua 243 once with a bunch of burrs. I fired the burrs out fire forming brass and carried on. Its great great stuff no doubt. I have a box of 22-250 on its second barrel also. I take Win brass in the field though. Cheap ass, I know.

I am glad to see Lapau getting back into 300WM. I don't feel like there are many really good options right now.

When folks I know pretty well worked with them they drilled. But maybe I’m wrong.
I’ve been running Norma that norma made for a friend with his head stamp in my 300wm they are MPI on the head Norma in make. They are hitting 9 this go but I got a little box of 30 nosler sitting and Karen wants a 30 nosler. Seems it cleans the 300wm out of this obermeyer quite nicely. Just have 80 or so 300’s to shoot and it’s getting a new barrel marking.
Just so you know the primer pocket is punched and headstamped in the bunter step. the Pierce and prime is a separate process. Chief. You are so complementary. Thanks.

In full disclosure this is a old pic I have had rifles built out of most or traded them to pals. Only two left.

 

[supercorndogs]

I emailed them, we shall see if their answer is the same as it was a few years ago.

 

[FredIII]

If the told you they punch the pocket that is correct as I said. The flash hole is a different step.

You keep peddling. I actually like you. you got a sense of humor.

PS Bryan has referenced Lapua drilling in his writings.
I know for sure he would know.
As they made brass for his Ammo line.
PSS so did we

 

[7WSMShooter]

Hello, I'm almost done finalizing the details on a new target/hunting build and all that's left is deciding the caliber and wanted to know your opinions on both of these. I've also read pretty much every thread on here concerning these two calibers and I'm still undecided. I was almost dead set on getting a 280AI but when Lapua announced brass for the 284 Win that wouldn't have to be necked up, the 284 definitely got my attention. As it is right now, I have an XLR Envy Pro, Bighorn TL3 LA, and will probably go with a 24" Shilen Pre-fit. My main goal is to build a rifle with a round that flies and kicks like a 6.5 creed but hits harder and I'm pretty sure I can accomplish this with either of these two rounds.

Where I'm torn is that I want to go with a 24" barrel to keep things compact but would like to get at least 2800 fps out of 180gr bullets. Probably hard to do with the 284 but doable with the 280AI. Since I load all my own ammo, I'm more concerned with the quality of available brass than anything else. Any of you guys have experience with both calibers and can make a suggestion? Are they comparable in accuracy since the 284 has such an F Class following? Thanks in advance.

284 is cool cartridge, I like 280AI better, like something else (I wonder what) even more, but you’re In the middle range 7mm cases. You can sling a 180 with that .284
But for hunting I’d prob drop down a bit in bullet weight and go up in velocity. The 155 TLR Fed bullets have an impressive BC for their weight and the fact it’s a damn good hunting bullet. 162 ELDX is another you could use. I’ve got some of the early runs of 162 ELD-Ms and have had no prob with the bullets at 3100FPS (7WSM) out of a 9 twist. They’re fine on deer and targets, but I prob wouldn’t take em on an elk hunt.
I just think with the standard 284 case capacity she’ll do fine with a 180, but would prob fit better with the 160ish class of bullets for hunting.
If you’re gonna f class your hunting rig, then by all means, get at least an 8.5 twist to open up your bullet choices and go with at least a 180.
Oh, and find some 4831SC

 

[7WSMShooter]

And welcome to the hide and the wonderful 7mm family.

 

[FredIII]

284 is cool cartridge, I like 280AI better, like something else (I wonder what) even more, but you’re In the middle range 7mm cases. You can sling a 180 with that .284
But for hunting I’d prob drop down a bit in bullet weight and go up in velocity. The 155 TLR Fed bullets have an impressive BC for their weight and the fact it’s a damn good hunting bullet. 162 ELDX is another you could use. I’ve got some of the early runs of 162 ELD-Ms and have had no prob with the bullets at 3100FPS (7WSM) out of a 9 twist. They’re fine on deer and targets, but I prob wouldn’t take em on an elk hunt.
I just think with the standard 284 case capacity she’ll do fine with a 180, but would prob fit better with the 160ish class of bullets.

100% good info.
7wsm, what action did you use for your wsm. I used an old ruger LA ( by today’s standards it’s mid length l) tang safety round top that I thought was cool put a boots 8t on it and it’s a hammer 180 eldms at 2980 with RL 26. I’m to lazy to buy the 300 Norma cases and form them but once all this junky Winchester is gone I’m gonna have to get off my azz and form some good cases and see that she will do with quality.

Only regret is I had my smith cut the break into the blank rather than thread.

 

[7WSMShooter]

I spun up a Broughton 1-9 twist on an old FN-SPR action I had laying around and got lucky. (Don’t chamber many barrels ) Was pushing 180 Berger’s out at 2975, and then found a load with 162 ELD-Ms at 3100 With RL23 that shot freakishly good so been running that. The throat is getting kinda toasty so gonna send it out for a full go over to LRI and a new tube. And a bit of a weight loss program.

 

[7WSMShooter]

Then had Moon build this 7WSM with a Proof 26 in 1-8.4 twist , Mac Bros Ti action, Manners PRS1. Started breaking in with some powderpuff 120 varmit loads and hopefully getting into some serious load development this weekend with some 180 JLKs I found.

 

[Holliday]

I spun up a Broughton 1-9 twist on an old FN-SPR action I had laying around and got lucky. (Don’t chamber many barrels ) Was pushing 180 Berger’s out at 2975, and then found a load with 162 ELD-Ms at 3100 With RL23 that shot freakishly good so been running that. The throat is getting kinda toasty so gonna send it out for a full go over to LRI and a new tube. And a bit of a weight loss program.
View attachment 7504734

How long is that barrel? Thx

 

[7WSMShooter]

Both are 26inches. The FN barrel is contoured for my OTB style reflex can and it really cuts down on overall length and peace of mind if you drop your rifle on can/barrel and wonder if you bent it and if you’re gonna send half your baffle stack down range next time you pull the trigger.

 

[Aftermath]

I

 

[7WSMShooter]

I picked up a CA 280AI with carbon barrel and ended up selling it to my Bro unfired. It wouldn’t shoot for shit, sent it back and they retubed it. It hammers now. We took it outta their stock and popped it into a KRG bravo with a lot of LOP spacers for Magilla Gorilla and worked up a load with the TLR 155s over RL23 and it’ll spit out 3 shots as tight as any of out comp gun builds. If I didn’t already have so much in 7WSM brass and rifles, it Would be hard not to build a few 280AIs. It’s a sweet round for hunting.

 

[FredIII]

How’s the can do on the proof? my smith is telling me that he is getting mixed reviews from customers.
Im waiting on a tax stamp for a griffin optimums at the moment and was hopeful it would be a ringer on my sons 7-08 AI. Still waiting on the stock but it’s my fault for procrastinating.

went manners mcs-cs figureit will grow with him and I can play with it also.

 

[7WSMShooter]

I’ll find out this weekend I guess. Haven’t done enough shooting with this proof to know yet.
That action looks like a stainless Mac Bros. is that what it is?

 

[FredIII]

Yes sir. SS evo that’s a 7-08ai and I have a 308 Winchester on one as well. I also have a TI evo in a 6.5 saum that’s a replacement for its twin that a outfitter needed more than me last October, I think it was number 014#

 

[spife7980]

If the told you they punch the pocket that is correct as I said. The flash hole is a different step.

A lapua rep has flat out said that the flash holes are punched, not drilled, over on accurate shooter. They just swap out their tooling earlier which is why for the most part the holes are sharp and clean.

 

[FredIII]

You are being redirected...

My apologies korndogski!
I was wrong. As it appears they currently pierce.

 

[supercorndogs]

Hello Mr. Supercorndogsski,

"Thank you for contacting us at Capstone PG. Our Lapua brass has flash holes are precision punched at our facilities in Lapua, Finland. Please do not hesitate to get back with any of us with the Capstone Tech. Team if we can be of further assitance. "


They are fast on the reply.

 

[Steel head]

Oh, and find some 4831SC

With 168’s H4831SC is amazing in my 7 saum which has basically the exact same volume as 280AI.

 

[FredIII]

Hello Mr. Supercorndogsski,

"Thank you for contacting us at Capstone PG. Our Lapua brass has flash holes are precision punched at our facilities in Lapua, Finland. Please do not hesitate to get back with any of us with the Capstone Tech. Team if we can be of further assitance. "


They are fast on the reply.

korndogski!
My apologies I was wrong.