new department rifles

[sgtusmc_nc]

As always thanks for the input ahead of time. our department currently runs 6 remmy 700p rifles with leupold scopes and two custom built DMR style rifles in 5.56. several of our bolt guns are aging out and are due to be replaced in the near future. myself along with our team leader have been field testing personally owned dpms lr308's and we are looking at switching out our older bolt guns for 308 gas guns.

I would like any input on 308 gas gun setups that military or leo guys are running on there teams. Im thinking we are going to have the funds to T&E a couple and see what we want to go with. our agency doesnt need anything to reach out at great distace. our longest deployment shot was taken just over 100 yards and the shortest was taken around 40ish i beleive.

Thanks for the imput!

 

[Graham]

Re: new department rifles

Are you asking what brands/optics are prevalent in general, or do you want specific information regarding useful accessories and modular feature combinations, and ammunition?

If so, then to give useful advice one would need to know whether your officers fully-trained snipers or whether the department uses them in a designated marksman role; whether they deploy alone or always in teams of two; whether it is an urban or rual AO....

Is it your plan to have all bolt guns go away entirely? If so, then why? If not, then why not? The military has found precision gas guns useful over bolt guns for engaging multiple targets at multiple distances under time constraints. Is what the military running important to your mission?

 

[sgtusmc_nc]

Re: new department rifles

sorry to clarify im curious what others use, weapon brands, optics?

fully trained snipers, on our tactical team only, our regular patrol officers use departmental issued colts, or personal carry rifles.

we are mostly a city department with limited rural area, i recently came over to the sniper team from the entry side of the house, but all of the depoloyments I have been on our snipers deploy on the perim. as a single unit. to support the entry team, or provide precesion fire if the situation dictates. as of late though its mostly gathering intell and providing info for the ground commander.

what the military runs would only be important as far as giving a baseline to what equiepment is holding up the best. I understand their mission is diffrent, IE, the scopes most military guys are using that I have met or worked with would not be of any use to us, but i would like their imput on specific weapons as to how they feel they standup, problems they have had with them etc...

I think we have 3 of the 6 bolt guns that need to be replaced the other 3 would not be replaced at this time. one of the benifits for us using gas guns is we have several armorers who could work on all aspects of the weapons, where we need gunsmiths to do some work on the bolt guns, barrels mostly. with that said I dont think we plan on replacing all the bolt guns with gas guns at this time.

 

[KM375]

Re: new department rifles

Thinking along the lines of Military DMR and the groups that I have seen some of the LMT's on here shoot and that most of your engagements are 100 and in. Your officers are already familiar with the AR pattern system.
I think the 16 inch OBR, LMT MWS, KAC EMC, would be a good starting place. All weapons would be in .308 caliber.
The LMT has been gaining ground around the world with the Brits and New Zealand as DMR rifles. The 16 inch version would be light and short enough to move and conceal from public eyes. Your individual shooters could change the barrels on the LMT from 16, to 18 to 20 using Chrome lined or Stainless steel and also change caliber giving you a very versatile system
The 0 MOA rail on the LMT would keep your optic right on line with the bore.

Optics, S&B, Premier, Nightforce F1's something with a large enough FOV for you to see in all light with the capability of getting a PVS 22 perhaps in front on the Rails. A Variable scope probably in the 3 to 15 power range with a FFP reticle so you have consistent windage or elevation calls through out the range of the optic. .

 

[Mike_in_FL]

Re: new department rifles

I would take a look at DMack's review here:

PWS MK214

 

[Goot]

Re: new department rifles

Why don't you talk with Blue Line? Though his department was looking for a entry weapon...

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2487794&gonew=1#UNREAD

Their department is going with PWS. That doesn't mean its the same choice for you all, but I am sure he has some insight for you.

 

[jroberts]

Re: new department rifles

i would go with the gap 10...its the most accurate gasser ive ever shot..

 

[gyz77]

Re: new department rifles

KAC SR-25 EMC with Suppressor. Use the same scopes you have on the Bolt guns. GYZ

 

[BCP]

Re: new department rifles

I think Lonewolf and DMACK are both LEO snipers or something akin to that. Talk to them.

For a precision rifle I really think you're better off with a bolt and I don't see a semi replacing a bolt for several reasons.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: new department rifles

I am still chewing on what this means?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sgtusmc_nc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">several of our bolt guns are aging out and are due to be replaced in the near future. </div></div>

Seriously - your PD has fired enough rounds through not one, but multiple 700 actions to warrant replacement? Or they need new tubes and nobody likes the stocks?


As for gasers - if you set a standard for reliability you will likely nix a bunch of lower end commercial offerings. After that it is a simple matter of a spread sheet to take the base price of what ever is left over and dress it up like you all will want it, vs the cost of something like a GAP / Noveske / KAC (insert name here) that is dialed in. Add the cost of mags, spare parts, and the pain in the ass / or lack their of variance of in dealing with the vendor.


Good luck

 

[HPLLC]

Re: new department rifles

If you're looking for a semi-auto for your department the LMT MWS stoked with 175grain Black hills or Federal GMM should do what you need it to do. It seems the LMT guns like the 2.8" OAL and 175grain combination.

Guys on the forum here(multiple people) have been reporting .7-1MOA at 100-300 yards with good ammo, and that's frankly ~.1MOA better than my Army M110 shot on its factory test target from KAC.

When running with the suppressor, the M110 was a great gun for any scenario where you might not have a spotter working with you. The muzzle stays flat in the prone and the shooter can spot his own rounds impacting. At a competition, I once ran Larue sniper targets 100-550meters UKD in about 45 seconds shooting and cranking elevation and windage based on spotted impacts on the targets and the estimated additional distance to the next target. That was the only event I shot with the 110 as it was my spotter's weapon. It showed me that these guns have carved out a definitive niche where they definitely add a serious capability to the sniper/spotter team.

 

[buggsb]

Re: new department rifles

I understand the appeal of a gas gun, especially for some military applications, but I just can't imagine a need for most law enforcement scenarios.

I think Grahm was right on target with "The military has found precision gas guns useful over bolt guns for engaging multiple targets at multiple distances under time constraints." This is not a typical law enforcement mission and the equipment which ideally supports this military mission may not be ideal for LE scenarios.

There are plenty of good gas guns already mentioned which may suit your accuracy and reliability requirements (Larue OBR, LWRC REPR, GAP-10, etc.), however the cost to acquire these systems (plus accessories, spares, etc.) will be many times greater than the cost to re-barrel and/or re-stock your existing bolt guns. I know this isn't what you were looking to hear, but it is the reality of what you are considering.

If you decide you have to make the switch, keep your (realistic) mission requirements in mind when choosing. When making the decision cost should be way down on your list of priorities. While you could build a reasonably priced bolt gun which will be both accurate and reliable, a good gas gun will typically cost more. Stick with the top tier manufacturers and you should be OK.

Good luck with your selection process.

 

[KM375]

Re: new department rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am still chewing on what this means?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sgtusmc_nc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">several of our bolt guns are aging out and are due to be replaced in the near future. </div></div>

Seriously - your PD has fired enough rounds through not one, but multiple 700 actions to warrant replacement? Or they need new tubes and nobody likes the stocks?



As for gasers - if you set a standard for reliability you will likely nix a bunch of lower end commercial offerings. After that it is a simple matter of a spread sheet to take the base price of what ever is left over and dress it up like you all will want it, vs the cost of something like a GAP / Noveske / KAC (insert name here) that is dialed in. Add the cost of mags, spare parts, and the pain in the ass / or lack their of variance of in dealing with the vendor.


Good luck </div></div>
This may be a no impact no idea of how many rounds have actually been fired through the guns. This is similar to what happened to some m24's in our armory while in the military. No one ever kept a round count so by the time some of us got our hands on them the barrels were shot out and had to be sent back to Remington for replacement. And then we were able to properly log the number of rounds fired.

 

[Bearwalk]

Re: new department rifles

I'll tack on to what buggsb mentioned. It's not clear the mission calls for a gas gun. It seems to me that the higher degree of reliability of a bolt may be more important to the mission and lower cost of maintainenance more important to the department.

On top of that, my experience is that it is much easier to call cold bore shots relative to warm/hot bores shots with a bolt than it is a gas gun. This may or may not be important to you and/or other's experience may be different than mine on this.

 

[lw8]

Re: new department rifles

IMO, unless you are going with a specialty caliber for ELR or something similar, the bolt gun in 7.62 is largely obsolete.

KAC will build an SR 25/MK 11/M-110 however you request and they can be had at an accuracy level that rivals most shooters. KevinB is a good POC.

The OBR is a good weapon as is the GAP 10.

 

[Graham]

Re: new department rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bearwalk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...my experience is that it is much easier to call cold bore shots relative to warm/hot bores shots with a bolt than it is a gas gun.</div></div>How, exactly?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lw8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IMO, unless you are going with a specialty caliber for ELR or something similar, the bolt gun in 7.62 is largely obsolete.</div></div>I know what you mean: Perhaps the time has come for Sniper's Hide to stop denying reality, stop fighting to keep that old horse alive, and just shut down.

OP, keep in mind that, while semis, especially black ones, have that cool look favored by 'operators' everywhere, it remains easier to learn how to shoot a bolt gun well.

 

[Blue Line]

Re: new department rifles

+1 for DMacks review of the PWS Mk214. He is really putting that rifle through the paces. I would also add check out the POF's, they get a lot of love here on the Hide and I liked the 5.56 they sent us. If you PM DMack I'm sure he will give you all of the specifics and then some.
Chris

 

[Bearwalk]

Re: new department rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

...my experience is that it is much easier to call cold bore shots relative to warm/hot bores shots with a bolt than it is a gas gun.</div></div>How, exactly?

I'll elaborate...my experience has been that many rifles change POI as you go from cold bore to warm bore. I won't say "all" because someone on here is bound to claim differently and who am I to say they are wrong.

All of my rifles change POI to varying degrees. Custom, heavy bore,off-the-shelf - doesn't matter. What changes is the predictability and magnitude. Heavier contour helps as does the amount of stuff impacting/affected by the combustion process.

I sight-in with a warm bore, but that's just me. My bolt cold bore POI's tend to be fairly predictable. i.e. down and to the left .5" from warm bore POI - or something like that. I have noticed that my semi, cold bores tend to be less predictable, both in magnitude and absolute direction. The general trend is there, but it can/does vary.

Why I bothered to mention it is this: when you are sharing equipment across a department it is more difficult for each and every user to become intimately familiar with each piece of equipment and variation reduction becomes important. IMHO, it is easier to reduce variation with bolts that it is with semi's. And, as you mentioned, it is easier to learn to shoot a bolt. For me, the above is part of the reason. (not the actual process of shooting, but rather learning the gun).

Again, this is just my experience and it may or may not be important at all to the OP.

 

[Graham]

Re: new department rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bearwalk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have noticed that my semi, cold bores tend to be less predictable, both in magnitude and absolute direction.</div></div>That's not the gun. It's likely because semis need to be driven differently than bolt guns. That's what I was getting at for the benefit of the OP.

If your cold bores wander, you have a gun problem. If you cold bore is repeatably different from your follow-up shot, you may have a gun problem (even with a rifle that otherwise shoots very well).

 

[Bearwalk]

Re: new department rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bearwalk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have noticed that my semi, cold bores tend to be less predictable, both in magnitude and absolute direction.</div></div>That's not the gun. It's likely because semis need to be driven differently than bolt guns. That's what I was getting at for the benefit of the OP.

If your cold bores wander, you have a gun problem. If you cold bore is repeatably different from your follow-up shot, you may have a gun problem (even with a rifle that otherwise shoots very well). </div></div>

Hopefully this discussion is pertinent to the OP, otherwise I apologize for taking the thread off-topic, and I'll at least limit further discussion to semi's...

I think we can eliminate "gun problem" as I have several rifles across multiple platforms that perform this way.

The leaves the other and I'm definitely not saying it can't be a driver problem. After you do this long enough, you know to never say that

, but if it was, I would expect all of my shots to wander, not just the cold bores. "Wander" is really a strong term for what I am intending to describe. "Noticable differences" would be how I would describe it.

If you are saying that you should drive semi's differently between cold bore and warm bore shots - other than compensating for anticipated changes in POI - then I am learning something new....and I hope I'm not the only one...

 

[powderBurnz]

Re: new department rifles

worth a mention is the learning curve you'll run into going from your bolt guns to semi's.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: new department rifles

It is worth remembering that even on tactical teams and even with snipers the operator may not be a "shooter". Sure he gets paid to wield a rifle, but he may not be a follower of the art. I know many Snipers who only shoot when they are on the clock. If a deficiency is seen then he is going to work diligently on fixing it....when he is next scheduled to train.

Contrast this to students of the art who will burn hours and hours on the range to perfect their craft no matter if they are on the clock or not.

A big bore gas gun is going to take more skill to run at the same accuracy level as a bolt gun. I can get shooters spun up on a bolt gun and at a level of proficiency that would allow them to qualify in a day or two.

I am not against Gas guns. However they are more difficult to shoot, have more moving parts, are more expensive and generally heavier than a comparably accurate bolt gun. When you add all that together and then look at the pile of statistics from LE Sniper Shots you see that a gas gun is not really needed as a primary weapon.

There are situations that are POSSIBLE (although not likely) where a semi-auto would be the superior choice. In that case having a gas gun in the trunk or in the SWAT truck to grab makes sense.

I have said this over and over. If your team is fully equipped with comm, optics, NV, etc. then a semi-auto sniper systems may be a good addition. If you are running crappy optics, cant communicate or are crippled by the dark, the latest shiny stick isn't going to improve your effectiveness.

When it's all said and done for an LE Sniper it's about placing a single, perfect shot onto a target in any condition. It's not about banging steel for a mile. It's not about run and gun.

Lastly a highly skilled shooter on a mag fed bolt gun is not going to give up much speed at all to a semi-auto. I was at a school shooting steel out to 300 yards from an urban hide setting. The spotter/instructor was in another room with binos. My squad had two shooters with M110's. The rest of us were shooting bolt guns. There was some miscommunication about how to engage the targets. Apparently we were supposed to shoot the first target, wait for the spotter to radio a hit, then move on to the next target. I didn't get the memo. When the RO said "go" I popped the first, second and third as fast as I could work the bolt and swing the rifle. When the RO called a cease fire, I heard the spotter ask if that was one of the M110's. I just thought it was funny. I don't drop this gem to brag, because I am really a decent shooter at best. I got nothing on some of those guys in Europe.

First examine if you really need a semi-auto. Then worry about which one. Also examine if there is not a cost effective way to upgrade your current bolt guns. I bet you can get them rebuilt for far less than a new gasser and keep some cash in the budget for better optics.

 

[adam1122]

Re: new department rifles

Interesting. Our dept. ran fully custom rem700's for years and now we have both - its mission specific. Shots that will be taken under 100m and have only one possible target and the bolt gun goes.

If their are multiple targets as a potential threat then a gas gun goes (DMR rifle). I now use a 20in lwrc Repr with a USO SN-3 on top. It also has a burris fastfire II sight that is offset mounted in case I need to take a snapshot that is close in. It is very rare that leo snipers take shots over 150m so the weapons and optics choices generally reflect that. I had a S&B short dot on my rifle before I realized that I would use the Repr for potentially longer shots if I had to take them. Only issue I have with the repr and a 20in barrel with a SN-3 on top is that it is heavy as shit. Best shots are taken prone obviously. All shots are suppressed as well.

 

[BCP]

Re: new department rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you cold bore is repeatably different from your follow-up shot, you may have a gun problem (even with a rifle that otherwise shoots very well)</div></div>

Um...what? I don't think there are any barrels out there that shoot identically whether warm or cold...

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: new department rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Um...what? I don't think there are any barrels out there that shoot identically whether warm or cold... </div></div>

There are lots of them. In fact my safe is full of them.

Cold/Fouled and Warm/Fouled should have the same POI. Cold/Clean to Warm/Fouled will very often be different. That is why you see many professional snipers have begun putting their rifles up with a fouled bore.

 

[Graham]

Re: new department rifles

Again I defer to Lonewolf, who knows this topic better than I. And I don't disagree with any of what he said.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bearwalk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are saying that you should drive semi's differently between cold bore and warm bore shots - other than compensating for anticipated changes in POI - then I am learning something new....and I hope I'm not the only one...</div></div>Nope. That's not what I am saying.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All of our entry guys carry 5.56 or MP5SD's and could easily take a sub 100m shot and get sub-moa on target.</div></div>Consistent sub-MOA to 100 with an MP5SD3 is truly impressive, as it exceeds the capabilities of the system. Don't tell the Navy.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you cold bore is repeatably different from your follow-up shot, you may have a gun problem (even with a rifle that otherwise shoots very well)</div></div>Um...what? I don't think there are any barrels out there that shoot identically whether warm or cold... </div></div>Come down to Rifles Only this week and you'll see them.

Like I said, it's not about the gun.

A .308 semi is a fine addition to a team that has everything, including a very experienced rifleman that knows how to drive it and won't spend his training time chasing his own errors.

 

[SSSamurai]

Re: new department rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All of our entry guys carry 5.56 or MP5SD's and could easily take a sub 100m shot and get sub-moa on target.</div></div>Consistent sub-MOA to 100 with an MP5SD3 is truly impressive, as it exceeds the capabilities of the system. Don't tell the Navy.

</div></div>
Well, when you shoot playing cards at 1000yds...

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: new department rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
All of our entry guys carry 5.56 or MP5SD's and could easily take a sub 100m shot and get sub-moa on target.</div></div>

Wow..how did I miss that?

Really? You had to go there?

Why does everyone have to take it to the "silly" level.

 

[Sumpter Steve]

Re: new department rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
All of our entry guys carry 5.56 or MP5SD's and could easily take a sub 100m shot and get sub-moa on target. We all train for this stuff incessantly. </div></div>

AR-15.com is waiting for you.

 

[Graham]

Re: new department rifles

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteelShot11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All of our entry guys carry 5.56 or MP5SD's and could easily take a sub 100m shot and get sub-moa on target.</div></div>Wow..how did I miss that?</div></div>Did you also miss having the snipers deployed to 'cover the exits' ?

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: new department rifles

only when they "do their part". HA.