PRS Talk New PRS barricade skills stage idea

[Dthomas3523]

So, people are running this stage in 40 seconds. Time to change it up.

Wont get into the height and such. That’s another discussion. Here’s my suggestion to spice it up and bring in some different skills to test in the skills stage.

Round Count: 8
Time limit: unlimited, but timed for score/tiebreaker

Distance: 400yds and 600yds

Target: 2moa circle

Left side of barricade will be shot with left hand/shoulder/eye. Right side is right eye/shoulder/finger.

When shooter is using their weak side, they will engage the 400yd target and when using strong side will engage 600yds.

Upon start shooter will assume a position on one of the 4 marked positions. Shooter’s choice where to start. Shooter will engage the appropriate target (see above) based on their weak/strong side.

Shooter will engage the first target with 2 shots. Shooter will them transition to one of the marked positions on the alternate side and engage the appropriate target with two shots.

Shooter will then perform a mandatory mag change and move to the other side and engage the appropriate target from the unused position with 2 shots.

Shooter will then move to the last position and engage the appropriate target with 2 shots.

Example:

Right handed shooter starts kneeling on right side and engages the 600 yd target (right side and his strong side, so he engages 600) With 2 shots.

Shooter moves to the left kneeling and engages the 400yd target with 2 shots from his week side.

shooter makes mag change and moves to standing right side with 2 shots at 600

shooter moves to left standing and engages 400 yd target with 2 shots.

This challenges the shooter’s skills to:

Engage multiple distances
Dial or hold over
Use their strong and week sode
Make an efficient mag change
Do it all as fast as possible

 

[bschneiderheinze]

8 positions 8 shots not as easy as it looks

 

[Lowlight]

Testing

Multiple Positions
Movement / Transitions
Magazine Changes
Support Side Shooting


Those are good skills to test, plus the ranges and target sizes are valid.

The main claim to me years ago about the barricade as required by the PRS. They said to me since they required MDs to build a barricade to a specific size, they didn't want to require them to change it. Which is insanely foolish, but okay. The current barricade design sucks ass.

I would rather see a better design, one that supports multiple heights, positions, etc on both sides so there is no requirement to force a shooter to operate in an unsafe way. The metal one above is nice, I like that because anyone can accomplish the tasks on a position that fits their size. But forcing them to build it is the issue.

The deal with a skill stage, at least in my opinion, a skill implies a universal truth, shooting 3 shots at 1000 yards from the prone, vs shooting 3 shoots at 1000 yards from a barricade 53 inches high. If you said, shoot 3 shots from the "Standing" that is a universal task, as long as everyone has the same access to support the rifle. If you said, do shots kneeling anywhere on the barricade, shots standing anywhere on the barricade, is better than saying, off the top. That is the issue most have with contrived props.

When props force one shooter out of their comfort zone, but another shooter on the same prop is perfectly fine from that same position, you have a bias issue. So instead you say: Sitting, Kneeling, Standing and offer multiple options. That is the better way to train a skill.

We used to do,

3 shots,

Sitting, kneeling, and standing, with a combination of weak and strong side shooting. Basically like this post, you go up one side and down the other side. However, we never dictated where on the barricade you had to shoot those positions from, if I can use the lowest rung to engage the targets from both the sitting and kneeling position, great, then I can move up to location that fits me standing. You have a much better result.

I really like switching to two targets, the 400 weakside and 600 strong, that is practical and nice.

It's good to see people thinking and talking about this and trying to change things for the better.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Testing

Multiple Positions
Movement / Transitions
Magazine Changes
Support Side Shooting


Those are good skills to test, plus the ranges and target sizes are valid.

The main claim to me years ago about the barricade as required by the PRS. They said to me since they required MDs to build a barricade to a specific size, they didn't want to require them to change it. Which is insanely foolish, but okay. The current barricade design sucks ass.

I would rather see a better design, one that supports multiple heights, positions, etc on both sides so there is no requirement to force a shooter to operate in an unsafe way. The metal one above is nice, I like that because anyone can accomplish the tasks on a position that fits their size. But forcing them to build it is the issue.

The deal with a skill stage, at least in my opinion, a skill implies a universal truth, shooting 3 shots at 1000 yards from the prone, vs shooting 3 shoots at 1000 yards from a barricade 53 inches high. If you said, shoot 3 shots from the "Standing" that is a universal task, as long as everyone has the same access to support the rifle. If you said, do shots kneeling anywhere on the barricade, shots standing anywhere on the barricade, is better than saying, off the top. That is the issue most have with contrived props.

When props force one shooter out of their comfort zone, but another shooter on the same prop is perfectly fine from that same position, you have a bias issue. So instead you say: Sitting, Kneeling, Standing and offer multiple options. That is the better way to train a skill.

We used to do,

3 shots,

Sitting, kneeling, and standing, with a combination of weak and strong side shooting. Basically like this post, you go up one side and down the other side. However, we never dictated where on the barricade you had to shoot those positions from, if I can use the lowest rung to engage the targets from both the sitting and kneeling position, great, then I can move up to location that fits me standing. You have a much better result.

I really like switching to two targets, the 400 weakside and 600 strong, that is practical and nice.

It's good to see people thinking and talking about this and trying to change things for the better.

I agree. Have multiple heights on each side and just say “kneeling and standing” for positions and let them pick the height.

Hell, since in my stage design there is no time limit and you’re looking to see how fast people can accomplish the “skills” stage, add 4 more shots.

Shooter will shoot 3 positions each side. Shooter must shoot from standing, kneeling, and seated on each side. Shooter must alternate each side between each 2 shot string.

Same weak/strong, different targets, and a mag change.

 

[dgheriani]

I honestly don't see the point of even having a standardized "skills stage"? The MD can pick any stage in the match and have the ROs record the time as a tie breaker. To me, repetitive stages (from one match to another) are kinda anathema to "practical shooting". You shouldn't be able to practice a stage beforehand. It makes much more sense to practice/train all the different skills (holdovers, mag changes, etc) as well as various takes on supported standing, kneeling, seated, prone and then have to look at a stage for the first time and figure out how best to run it.

 

[morganlamprecht]

I honestly don't see the point of even having a standardized "skills stage"? The MD can pick any stage in the match and have the ROs record the time as a tie breaker. To me, repetitive stages (from one match to another) are kinda anathema to "practical shooting". You shouldn't be able to practice a stage beforehand. It makes much more sense to practice/train all the different skills (holdovers, mag changes, etc) as well as various takes on supported standing, kneeling, seated, prone and then have to look at a stage for the first time and figure out how best to run it.

100% agree

u just get guys who practice the skills stages the most...theyll shoot the barricade in 50 seconds, the 3 target panning stage in 18 seconds and shoot 50% for the match because on something they havent practiced 100x they cant figure it out if its not straight forward lol

 

[lash]

I honestly don't see the point of even having a standardized "skills stage"? The MD can pick any stage in the match and have the ROs record the time as a tie breaker. To me, repetitive stages (from one match to another) are kinda anathema to "practical shooting". You shouldn't be able to practice a stage beforehand. It makes much more sense to practice/train all the different skills (holdovers, mag changes, etc) as well as various takes on supported standing, kneeling, seated, prone and then have to look at a stage for the first time and figure out how best to run it.

The reason that there are standardized skill stages is to remove “locality bias”. Meaning that if a local MD uses a skill stage for his matches, there will likely be a tendency for shooters from that locale to be better or more practiced at that stage since they will be used to it. This puts shooters from elsewhere at a disadvantage. Almost every shooting sport has standardized skills stages as do many other sports.

On this same subject, has anyone seen the new 2020 PRS Rules changes?

https://www.precisionrifleseries.com/static/media/uploads/2020_prs_rulebook.pdf

Among other things, they’ve listened to Frank and others Regarding the height of the barricade skills stage positions.


PRS Skill Stage 2 Barricade Dimensions
(2019)
• Positions 1 and 2 are 52”-54” tall x 48” wide x 4”-5” thick. • Positions 3 and 4 are 28”-30” tall x 72” wide x 4”-5” thick.
• Positions 1 and 2 will change to 48”-50” by the end the 2019 season to allow time for the MDs to update their barricades for shorter shooters. During the 2019 season MDs are encouraged to update their barricades to meet the new measurements. Both measurements are authorized for the 2019 season.
(UPDATE)
• Positions 1 and 2 are 48-50” tall x 48” wide x 4”-5” thick.
• Positions 3 and 4 are 28”-30” tall x 72” wide x 4”-5” thick

They have also added shooter classifications, among other changes.
Pro, Semi-Pro, Marksman and Amateur.

This shows me that they are trying to listen to the whole group of shooters and make positive changes. Of course, I have always been a glass half full kinda guy.

 

[dgheriani]

The reason that there are standardized skill stages is to remove “locality bias”. Meaning that if a local MD uses a skill stage for his matches, there will likely be a tendency for shooters from that locale to be better or more practiced at that stage since they will be used to it. This puts shooters from elsewhere at a disadvantage. Almost every shooting sport has standardized skills stages as do many other sports.

On this same subject, has anyone seen the new 2020 PRS Rules changes?

https://www.precisionrifleseries.com/static/media/uploads/2020_prs_rulebook.pdf

Among other things, they’ve listened to Frank and others Regarding the height of the barricade skills stage positions.


PRS Skill Stage 2 Barricade Dimensions
(2019)
• Positions 1 and 2 are 52”-54” tall x 48” wide x 4”-5” thick. • Positions 3 and 4 are 28”-30” tall x 72” wide x 4”-5” thick.
• Positions 1 and 2 will change to 48”-50” by the end the 2019 season to allow time for the MDs to update their barricades for shorter shooters. During the 2019 season MDs are encouraged to update their barricades to meet the new measurements. Both measurements are authorized for the 2019 season.
(UPDATE)
• Positions 1 and 2 are 48-50” tall x 48” wide x 4”-5” thick.
• Positions 3 and 4 are 28”-30” tall x 72” wide x 4”-5” thick

They have also added shooter classifications, among other changes.
Pro, Semi-Pro, Marksman and Amateur.

This shows me that they are trying to listen to the whole group of shooters and make positive changes. Of course, I have always been a glass half full kinda guy.

There's always gonna be a "locality bias" seeing as most venues that host 2-day national matches normally host a bunch of local matches throughout the season and often use the same props and have similar stages for all the matches. The only way around that is to mandate that MDs have different props for local and 2-day matches and I don't really see that happening. Locals will always have an advantage, even more so with regards to understanding how the wind works on their range. It is what it is. I just far prefer having a random stage be the timed tie-breaker like the NRL does than have a few set stages. I'm not gonna cry either way, I just don't think it's necessary to have standardized stages is all.

 

[Mordamer]

I really think that at the finale this last year the barricade target should have been 1 MOA. That would be one heck of a tie breaker and would instantly take the skills stage to a different level. I may stick a 4" circle out at 400 yards and see if I can get a clean run after a few tries. This one small change would make the shooter focus a lot more on precision and a lot less on ripping shots off as fast as possible.

 

[lash]

I really think that at the finale this last year the barricade target should have been 1 MOA. That would be one heck of a tie breaker and would instantly take the skills stage to a different level. I may stick a 4" circle out at 400 yards and see if I can get a clean run after a few tries. This one small change would make the shooter focus a lot more on precision and a lot less on ripping shots off as fast as possible.

Along that same line, you could simply drop it down to a 6” target or a 5” target, since the current standard is 10”, which is well over 2 moa. At the finals I could see this, but for regular matches, it would put many shooters out in the cold.

Just for grins, I did the math, which shows that a 7” circle target would be close to exactly half the surface area of a 10” circle target.