New Reloader with a Question

[Baron23]

Hi guys - I'm a 68 y.o. long time shotgunner but relatively new to rifle shooting. After spending decades reloading shotshell for skeet tournaments and getting bored as hell with it, my initial plan was to shoot factory ammo only. But as I'm gotten better with my shooting I found myself want to eliminate other sources of variability like velocity and its consistency (ES/SD.)

That and my very good friend, @GBMaryland has slowly convinced me to take up metallic reloading.....I will make him pay for throwing me down this rabbit hole someday (hahaha...joking of course).

Now, I'd like to ask a question that I have indeed discussed with my friend and this post doesn't indicate a lack of trust in what he is telling me (not at all). I would just like to solicit some input on this from others to see their take on it

The issue relates to bumping back shoulders when using a FL die. The FL die in question is a Redding and I plan to use Widden's click locking ring which is supposed to give me .001 bump back per click. Since I am new at this, I'm trying to keep it a bit simple and plan to just use this die to start and not an S type with bushings or anything other for the time being. I think this is wise but I'm open to input.

I'm also using a Whidden case gauge with a reference mark that shows shoulder position relative to SAAMI spec.

The cases are Hornady 6.5 CM shot out of my Proof Research SS barrel....gun bought very slightly used but as far as I know the chambering was NOT done with any custom reamer (and I really don't know squat about reamers, custom or otherwise). I do not plan to shoot this ammo in any other 6.5 CM gun, I do not shoot other people's reloads nor will I be giving them to anyone else to shoot in their gun, and do not anticipate getting another 6.5 CM gun so chamber differences are not an issue (I think).

Using the Whidden gauge, I found that Hornady 6.5 CM, ELD-M 140 gr is .002" short of SAAMI spec.

Using the same gauge on fired and tumbled brass, it shows the shoulders being .004" longer than SAAMI spec, this reflecting my actual chamber dimensions

So, .006 difference between factory and my fired cases.

So, should I set my die to:

1. Bump shoulders back .002 (or another mumber) from where they are as fired in my chamber
2. Bump back the entire .004 and get back to SAAMI as indicated by the Whidden gauge
3. Bump back all the way to .002 short of SAAMI spec as is the factory ammo.

I am a firm believer in doing independent research from reading, vids, convos with experienced reloader friends, etc before posting a question. But I haven't found any answers to this particular question and hope you don't mind helping a new guy out.

Shot shell was sooooo much easier....actually, its stupid simple compared to metallic.

Thank you for reading and perhaps offering some input.

 

[spife7980]

Since this is the first firing I would set it to .001 below the fired lengths, they might grow an extra thou or so. Just check that it chambers easily still.

 

[pabrousseau]

I would forget about the saami number.knock a primer out of a fired case and reinsert it about half way in chamber it and close the bolt. This is assuming your fired cases chamber without restance. Shoulder datum to primer should be head space number.size your cases. 002 shorter than this number. Is this a bolt gun and is it once fired brass? You want your cases about. 002 shorter than bolt face to shoulder. Matters not what the saami # is. Remember your chamber is your gauge.

 

[Baron23]

I would forget about the saami number.knock a primer out of a fired case and reinsert it about half way in chamber it and close the bolt. This is assuming your fired cases chamber without restance. Shoulder datum to primer should be head space number.size your cases. 002 shorter than this number. Is this a bolt gun and is it once fired brass? You want your cases about. 002 shorter than bolt face to shoulder. Matters not what the saami # is. Remember your chamber is your gauge.

Hi and thanks for the reply but now I'm a bit confused.

Yes, bolt gun and yes, this is once fired brass.

I got it about forgetting about SAAMI and the factory Hornady numbers. I rather thought I should be bumping back from fire formed shoulder position from my actual chamber. Makes perfect sense.

But after mulling it over a bit, I believe I do understand your approach for determining headspace. But looking at SAAMI drwg, what is the shoulder datum point. I see figures for base to where the neck meets the shoulder, a point about 2/3's of the way down the shoulder, and for base to where the shoulder meets the body.

And how would you accurately measure from a primer slightly sticking out (perhaps) to a point on the shoulder with complete accuracy....I mean, we are talking only a couple/few thousandths

As an alternative, I have a Hornady headspace comparator and can zero my caliper on a fired but pre-sized brass shoulder and then compare to what I'm getting out of my die and make adjustments as needed to get back .002 from fired dimensions.

But frankly, the Whidden gauge seems easier.

And yes, I am a wee dense bastard so there is that. LOL

Thanks

 

[spife7980]

This is how you know where their lengths are on the shoulder, you use a datum. For this they use a .400" datum

Datum is just a plane, in this case its a plane thats bisecting a cone. The easy way to do that is to put it into a circle thats .400 in diameter. Now the gauges are all that but they have a bit of chamfer thats not the same so they are really plus minus a few from saami actual numbers, thats why its a relative measurement (relative to fired) and not an absolute number. They should be close but not exact.

How do you measure that? Comparators.

Your widden gauge does the same thing though.

And to avoid measureing with the protruding primer you need to reseat the primer, deprime it or measure whth a hold under the primer but supporting the brass.

I deprime. Just knock the primer alone out and measure the brass without interference. The lee is 12 bucks, the redding is 24 but comes with the small pin for the small european flash holes.

 

[Baron23]

This is how you know where their lengths are on the shoulder, you use a datum. For this they use a .400" datum
View attachment 7601167
Datum is just a plane, in this case its a plane thats bisecting a cone. The easy way to do that is to put it into a circle thats .400 in diameter. Now the gauges are all that but they have a bit of chamfer thats not the same so they are really plus minus a few from saami actual numbers, thats why its a relative measurement (relative to fired) and not an absolute number. They should be close but not exact.
View attachment 7601168

How do you measure that? Comparators.
View attachment 7601169

Your widden gauge does the same thing though.
View attachment 7601170



And to avoid measureing with the protruding primer you need to reseat the primer, deprime it or measure whth a hold under the primer but supporting the brass.

I deprime. Just knock the primer alone out and measure the brass without interference. The lee is 12 bucks, the redding is 24 but comes with the small pin for the small european flash holes.
View attachment 7601171

Thank you so very much.

Yes, I suspected that the middle number was the datum and I am familiar with that term but I do appreciate your taking the time to make it very clear.

I do have the Hornady Headspace Comparator and a good set of calipers. While my primers were all knocked out before tumbling, I still kind of think that either the comparator or the Whidden gauge are the easiest way to go at this point and, as you said, we are looking for .002 back relative to the fired brass starting point so as long as I use the same tool (e.g. the Whidden gauge) I should be alright.

Thanks for the very excellent post and all the work that went into it.

I'm about to go to my reloading bench and experiment with a few cases....see just how much I can screw this up! haha

Thanks again.

 

[pabrousseau]

Once fired brass is probably not fully expanded which is why I use the primer to get the full chamber length

 

[MakeSawdust]

The point everyone is trying to get at is this: the brass probably sprung back to be slightly shorter than your chamber. This fact makes measuring from a fired case a poor way to find the length of your chamber.

If you take the fire control system and ejector out of the bolt you can feel when the shoulder on the case is just barely rubbing the shoulder in your chamber.

With a new barrel, I like to find a case that is long enough there is resistance. Size it .001 at a time. When the bolt closes without any resistance, that is the max length for that case in that chamber. I usually size them to that length minus .001. That gives me an extra .001 to avoid hard bolt close, but keeps the brass working to a minimum, so it will last as many reloads as possible.

Once you have established the measurement you can write it down and it will not change for the life of the barrel.

 

[jakelly]

^^^ Yeah, this is the real issue.

OP, SAAMI is irrelevant as it pertains to your specific chamber. You are handloading to your chamber. Find your exact shoulder datum length and bump whatever seems best to you. .001-.003 is pretty standard.

 

[Baron23]

Hi guys - thanks for the great help.

I wasn’t really looking for my chamber lengthy per se, just what my target for bumping the shoulder back should be and the answer given was to bump back from fired brass shoulder and forget SAAMI and factory ammo figures.

I do have gauges to check no go but I’m anywhere not near that. My fired brass is .003 long from SAMMI but that’s just giving me a ref point from which to bump back .002-.003 from my fired brass shoulder.

I do have a Hornady OAL with bullet and headspace comparators that I plan to use to determine distance to lands for Bullets seating but that’s a frustration for another day.

I now have my die set to bump back .002 from fired brass length after a lot of frustration. LOL I found making .001 adjustments to to die to be very tricky.

is there a good reason for me to do as suggested and get the full chamber length at this time?

And yes, if I’m being an idiot, please do tell me so. Haha

 

[spife7980]

I’ve found that while they may not be full in the first firing they are still very close, that’s why I recommended the .001 from fired instead of .002. Your bumping number is fine though.
Yeah, it’s tough to figure where you’re at, it’s even worse with cheap brass etc. but once you develop the feel it comes easier.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Hi guys - thanks for the great help.

I wasn’t really looking for my chamber lengthy per se, just what my target for bumping the shoulder back should be and the answer given was to bump back from fired brass shoulder and forget SAAMI and factory ammo figures.

I do have gauges to check no go but I’m anywhere not near that. My fired brass is .003 long from SAMMI but that’s just giving me a ref point from which to bump back .002-.003 from my fired brass shoulder.



I now have my die set to bump back .002 from fired brass length after a lot of frustration. LOL I found making .001 adjustments to to die to be very tricky.

Your chamber length is in fact important. Sounds like you have a grip on it.
The NO go gauge on chambered rifle is or should be worthless.
The reason you are struggling with .001" adjustments is because your brass is not all the same length. I rarely can set my sizing die for good after one firing for this exact reason. And being you are going to be testing charges, your 2nd go sizing the brass may be the same as this one.

 

[jakelly]

^^^ More good information.

You may have to neck size only one or two more times to find out the true length of your chamber. Like @spife7980 I’ve found first firing generally gets pretty close, but like @Milo 2.5 said if you don’t find that true length, it is difficult to know where exactly you’re at. This dimension is actually critical.

Once you’ve established that, you set it and forget it as far as your die is concerned. Cases that are long will be bumped back and cases that aren’t yet too long will grow until they are. This is the proper way to achieve consistency without increasing the risk of case head separation or decreasing brass life.

 

[Baron23]

Wow, I'm sort of wishing I stayed with my original idea of just shooting factory ammo! haha....well, actually not that funny. hehe

I do understand that length from base to shoulder datum is a very important figure and defines headspace. And that optimally this should be used as the reference from which to bump back the shoulders.

If I understand correctly, if I had some brass fired in this gun multiple times such that it did not spring back and really reflected my chamber dimensions, as @MakeSawdust mentioned, could I not use a headspace comparator (I have a Hornady) , which seats on the shoulder datum point and use that to get head space reference figure to bump back from?

I understand (I think) Makesawdust's point that the very best way is to measure headspace is from long brass in the chamber with a bolt with all the parts out, and then bumped back in very small increments until it the bolt drops without resistance.....then use that as a future reference for bumping back.

Very similar to a vid I saw from Primal Rights on how to find length to the lands for bullet seating. He used the same approach and incrementally increased seating depth until the bolt, sans fire control, dropped without resistance.

But is that really necessary (yes, I'm no gun smith and tend to break things when I have tools in my hand)

Right now I'm going with .002 back from where it was after firing using the Whidden gauge as a reference.....I think I'm ok with this, no?

I think I'm going to take a break, shoot some skeet this weekend, and get back to this headache next week! haha

 

[spife7980]

You’ll be 100% fine with that

 

[jakelly]

Yes, you’re good. But you might actually be bumping that shoulder .005” not .002” or .003”. You can check by placing some masking tape on the base of the case and double checking. You’ll have to verify the thickness of the tape, but it should be close to .004”. Place a disk on the base and see if the bolt handle falls into place.

 

[Milo 2.5]

^^^ More good information.

You may have to neck size only one or two more times to find out the true length of your chamber. Like @spife7980 I’ve found first firing generally gets pretty close, but like @Milo 2.5 said if you don’t find that true length, it is difficult to know where exactly you’re at. This dimension is actually critical.

If I implied it is critical, not the intent. Important in the fact that there is no reason to overbump at this time. Usually with a minimal bump after the first firing, by the 2nd or 3rd firing, all brass will be the same size and controlling the bump becomes easy. Uniform case growth equals accurate ammo, and not ruining brass to casehead separation is desirable.
I am in the process of firing 500 pcs of Peterson Dasher brass first time, shit is growing .010", I am lucky it is all coming out same length. Short cases rule at times, lol

 

[jakelly]

Critical part - me
Difficult to know exactly where you’re at part- you

This is the difference between loading brass 5x and 25x. Neither is bad, but one is way better. Especially when tip top accuracy nodes are at play.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Critical part - me
Difficult to know exactly where you’re at part- you

This is the difference between loading brass 5x and 25x. Neither is bad, but one is way better. Especially when tip top accuracy nodes are at play.

Lol, as many pcs of brass that I usually put in service, 25 firings on brass would equate to 5 barrel transfers, maybe more. I try to get 2 barrels worth. I can say, I can get 5 firings from new brass and discard it after a barrel is toast and maintain tip top accuracy nodes for the life of that barrel. I am retired and like to sit on my fat ass, I don't have the time to babysit 100 pcs of brass for the life of a barrel.

 

[spife7980]

Lol, as many pcs of brass that I usually put in service, 25 firings on brass would equate to 5 barrel transfers, maybe more. I try to get 2 barrels worth. I can say, I can get 5 firings from new brass and discard it after a barrel is toast and maintain tip top accuracy nodes for the life of that barrel. I am retired and like to sit on my fat ass, I don't have the time to babysit 100 pcs of brass for the life of a barrel.

Same here, by the time I’ve gotten to the point where I hit 10 firings on brass I’m bored with the chambering and looking for something else.


Still OP, you did exactly what I would have

 

[Milo 2.5]

Same here, by the time I’ve gotten to the point where I hit 10 firings on brass I’m bored with the chambering and looking for something else.


Still OP, you did exactly what I would have

Lol, I guess now we measure success by the number of firings on our brass. Guy can use the same smith, continually chamber the same cartridge and reamer wear alone will fuck you to death trying to use the same brass.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Aaaannnnd down the rabbit hole you've come. Welcome. Like you, I spent decades loading shotshells and I regarded it with the same affection as swabbing toilets. Especially .410. Especially Winchester .410 since they could NEVER produce cases the same length more than a few seasons in a row, and Remington cases were like ittybitty toilet paper tubes that...

I digress.

The info above is provided by guys with far more experience than me. All I'm going to offer is a few observations based on my experience (~ three years, a few thousand rounds of .223 and 6.5CM over last couple of years and .25-06 back in the '80s).

• Even with the same lot of brass with the same number of firings on it, you're going to see a bit of variation in base to shoulder length after resizing. With experience, most of your cases will be spot on... but some will vary a couple of thousandths, occasionally more. Keep in mind that average printer paper is 0.003" or so thick. A thousandth ain't much for this work.
• You might have a die that gives you 0.001" change increments... but see preceding statement. Just because you change the die 0.002" doesn't mean every case will show that amount of change - especially across brands.
• Scale: FX-120i. Just do it. You can get by just fine with a beam scale or Chargemaster, but you should be able to find the 120i for under $500 (I have NOT verified that old price for this post) and you'll love it.
• You'll need a tool with which to trim your brass. For 6.5CM, I use an ancient Forster trimmer I got in the '80s and spin with a cordless drill. For .223, I use a Giraud Tri-Way trimmer I spin in a drill press with the chuck turned to horizontal. Unlike many here, I am (for now!) content with these calibers, so there is no good ROI on a super-duper trimmer like the Giraud Power trimmer. Which is an interesting position given what I've spent on other tools...
• Annealing is another keg o' worms. Unlike the trimmers, I went big here and got the AMP unit on their Black Friday sale in 2019.
• I tried neck-turning on .25-06 cases all those years ago... screw that. Not for me.
• Determining Cartridge Base to Ogive: I seat my bullet long in a resized case with the neck slit with a Dremel tool, allowing the bullet to slide with pressure. I carefully push the "round" fully into the chamber, then push it out with a coated cleaning rod inserted into the muzzle (with due care to protect the crown). Repeat a few times until the round pushes out without sticking - this yields a consistent CBTO with bullet barely touching the lands. Fwiw, I tried obtaining this measurement with the Hornady tool which someone lent me early on. Short version is my method is cheaper and vastly more consistent.
• With good brass (Peterson, Starline) I get ES values in the mid-20s across dozens of rounds. Yeah, I can get single-digit spreads for five rounds. And occasionally I get 1-inch 3-shot groups at 500 yards, too.
• Bullets matter. Hornady 140 ELD-Ms are cheap (well, they were when I last bought them a year ago). They shoot fine out to 500-600 yards. But at mid to longer ranges, Berger 140 Hybrids do notably better - but they're notably more expensive too. So I save them for matches and practice with Hornady bullets (well, I practice most with a .223 barrel screwed on, because positional practice is what I need far more than pure target practice).

How fun! (as smoke curls from the ashes of my wallet)

 

[Baron23]

Aaaannnnd down the rabbit hole you've come. Welcome. Like you, I spent decades loading shotshells and I regarded it with the same affection as swabbing toilets. Especially .410. Especially Winchester .410 since they could NEVER produce cases the same length more than a few seasons in a row, and Remington cases were like ittybitty toilet paper tubes that...

I digress.

The info above is provided by guys with far more experience than me. All I'm going to offer is a few observations based on my experience (~ three years, a few thousand rounds of .223 and 6.5CM over last couple of years and .25-06 back in the '80s).

• Even with the same lot of brass with the same number of firings on it, you're going to see a bit of variation in base to shoulder length after resizing. With experience, most of your cases will be spot on... but some will vary a couple of thousandths, occasionally more. Keep in mind that average printer paper is 0.003" or so thick. A thousandth ain't much for this work.
• You might have a die that gives you 0.001" change increments... but see preceding statement. Just because you change the die 0.002" doesn't mean every case will show that amount of change - especially across brands.
• Scale: FX-120i. Just do it. You can get by just fine with a beam scale or Chargemaster, but you should be able to find the 120i for under $500 (I have NOT verified that old price for this post) and you'll love it.
• You'll need a tool with which to trim your brass. For 6.5CM, I use an ancient Forster trimmer I got in the '80s and spin with a cordless drill. For .223, I use a Giraud Tri-Way trimmer I spin in a drill press with the chuck turned to horizontal. Unlike many here, I am (for now!) content with these calibers, so there is no good ROI on a super-duper trimmer like the Giraud Power trimmer. Which is an interesting position given what I've spent on other tools...
• Annealing is another keg o' worms. Unlike the trimmers, I went big here and got the AMP unit on their Black Friday sale in 2019.
• I tried neck-turning on .25-06 cases all those years ago... screw that. Not for me.
• Determining Cartridge Base to Ogive: I seat my bullet long in a resized case with the neck slit with a Dremel tool, allowing the bullet to slide with pressure. I carefully push the "round" fully into the chamber, then push it out with a coated cleaning rod inserted into the muzzle (with due care to protect the crown). Repeat a few times until the round pushes out without sticking - this yields a consistent CBTO with bullet barely touching the lands. Fwiw, I tried obtaining this measurement with the Hornady tool which someone lent me early on. Short version is my method is cheaper and vastly more consistent.
• With good brass (Peterson, Starline) I get ES values in the mid-20s across dozens of rounds. Yeah, I can get single-digit spreads for five rounds. And occasionally I get 1-inch 3-shot groups at 500 yards, too.
• Bullets matter. Hornady 140 ELD-Ms are cheap (well, they were when I last bought them a year ago). They shoot fine out to 500-600 yards. But at mid to longer ranges, Berger 140 Hybrids do notably better - but they're notably more expensive too. So I save them for matches and practice with Hornady bullets (well, I practice most with a .223 barrel screwed on, because positional practice is what I need far more than pure target practice).

How fun! (as smoke curls from the ashes of my wallet)

Thank you, my friend. Sorry for delayed response but I've been out of pocket all day.

And yes, even with a hydro powered Spolar, reloading shotshell is just gruesomely boring. Part of it is how many we needed to load...right? 400 + shoot off shells minimum. More likely 500 + shoot off shells.

I do have a die I can increment in .001. I went through this initial set of Hornady brass and they were 4-5 thousands over what was loaded at the factory. I set my die for to bump the .004 growth brass by .002 and hope that will catch the .005 ok. I mean, I'm right around SAAMI spec so I'm not in any headspace danger, but does a .001 or even .002 variation in shoulder bump make any real difference in performance. I don't see that small of diff causing any issues with bolt closure or....??? I will run some of the 15 cases that I have sized in my chamber and make sure though.

Ah, FX-120i.....I bought a Match Master as RCBS gave me a HUGE discount for being a vet and I wanted an all in one. I see that the next iteration of the Auto-trickler makes all the components connected into one....nice improvement but its not out yet. I think this Match Master will serve me well for now.

I do have the Hornady OAL gauge tool and comparator....cause, the modified case they provide is good but need to find delta from my cases and take that into account for distance to lands. If it doesn't work out, I may hit you for more details. I did see a vid from Orkan at Primal Rights where he pulled the fired control and ejector out of the bolt and set his bullet back .001 at a time until the bolt handle dropped freely. Apparently, he has enough neck tension to keep the bullet in place as he removes it with a rod as you described.

As for necks...no, I don't plan on turning necks at this time. Seems like that's more for the bench rest guys although I'm as much of an anal perfectionist as anyone. I will neck trim...I have a Giraud on order and my buddy has one I can use to trim my brass in the mean time (a long mean time....they are like 16 weeks out!!)

As for annealing....wow, yeah...go big or go home that AMP is supposed to be the shit. My buddy has used someone who anneals as a service. I'll see about that but I don't think I need to anneal until...what, at least a few firings? Or am I wrong about that?

I have 1500 Berger 140 gr hybrid target bullets....and yes, they shoot wonderfully out of my gun and are harder to find than hen's teeth.

May I as what you shoot that you do barrel swaps to a .223?

At 68, with a surgically repaired back that's gone to hell in the 12 years since. Its been more difficult in the last year so I went to see a neurosurgeon just to see what his recommendation would be. He said "Mr Baron, you have a collapsed disk at L4/5" I said "what does that mean" He said "It means you have NO disk there at all" LOL Hey, who knew. haha

So, I'm not at all sure I can do any PRS type positional shooting. Can't kneel and even just being on my knees is tough but I need to get some knee pads and see if that helps...it should. BUT, I would like to find a place, maybe next year, where I can get maybe a day of one on one instruction at a site that has props and see just what I can and can't do. I'm really fine with challenging myself with this type of stuff in shooting....it sure contributes to keeping my interest and engagement.

Thanks again. I do appreciate your reaching out.

Cheers

 

[MakeSawdust]

What you are doing headspace wise is perfectly safe. When we talk about bumping shoulders .001 or .002 we are trying to save brass life.

When you resize the case the excess brass from resizing can only go up. All other directions are contained by the sizing die. You trim the excess off the neck length after sizing. That excess brass came from somewhere. There is thinning in the wall of the case with every sizing. The more movement of the brass you have with each firing, the fewer firings it will last without a case head separation. That is why we try to bump shoulders a minimal amount. I helps us run the gun quickly and prevents galling of lugs etc. It also tends to be more accurate than having the cases so tight you have to stand on the bolt handle to close it.

It is perfectly normal to have .001-.002 variation in headspace of sized cases. Using lanolin and pausing for 3 seconds at the top of the stroke I can typically keep them all within .001 of each other. It does not noticeably effect performance.

Some guys do not worry about spending money on brass and just buy 300-500 pieces with every barrel. If you are replacing quality brass that often you can likely resize .004 or a bit more under your chamber and be just fine. I tend to run brass for 20-30 reloads which equates to 3 to 5 barrels. By only bumping shoulders .001-.002 and running mild loads it is not difficult to get there. I have sectioned brass with upwards of 20 reloads and found no noticeable thinning on 243ai brass. I do usually get nervous somewhere around 25 or so loads and throw them away.

An interesting experience I had that illustrated the above happened last year. I had a 223 bolt gun built to practice for prs for cheaper. I started with once fired lake city surplus brass. It took a good bit of sizing and trimming to get them to fit in the chamber after likely being fired in a sloppy mil chamber. Some were sized close to .010 and had to be run into the die twice to get them to the proper headspace for my chamber. I continued to run those cases with a .001 shoulder bump. At 5 firings I began to have case head separations with that brass. The stretch from the first firing had thinned the case walls significantly and lead to very early case failure. After that I bought 1000 pcs of starline 223 brass and started again. We will see how long it lasts. It is only on firing number 4 or 5.

Proceed as you wish. New brass with a new barrel is easier except for Wildcats that require fireforming. It just isn't as cheap. By sizing minimally and annealing every 3 firings or less you can make good brass like Lapua or Peterson last a damn long time. I have even had old Winchester brass go 20 something reloads in a 243ai and still going. When the barrel on my coyote rifle is done, that brass is going in the trash though.

Good luck with your reloading. It is a pretty fun hobby until you start doing it so all 4 people in your family can shoot 3k-5k rounds a year. It's more like a second job at that point lol.

 

[Baron23]

What you are doing headspace wise is perfectly safe. When we talk about bumping shoulders .001 or .002 we are trying to save brass life.

When you resize the case the excess brass from resizing can only go up. All other directions are contained by the sizing die. You trim the excess off the neck length after sizing. That excess brass came from somewhere. There is thinning in the wall of the case with every sizing. The more movement of the brass you have with each firing, the fewer firings it will last without a case head separation. That is why we try to bump shoulders a minimal amount. I helps us run the gun quickly and prevents galling of lugs etc. It also tends to be more accurate than having the cases so tight you have to stand on the bolt handle to close it.

It is perfectly normal to have .001-.002 variation in headspace of sized cases. Using lanolin and pausing for 3 seconds at the top of the stroke I can typically keep them all within .001 of each other. It does not noticeably effect performance.

Some guys do not worry about spending money on brass and just buy 300-500 pieces with every barrel. If you are replacing quality brass that often you can likely resize .004 or a bit more under your chamber and be just fine. I tend to run brass for 20-30 reloads which equates to 3 to 5 barrels. By only bumping shoulders .001-.002 and running mild loads it is not difficult to get there. I have sectioned brass with upwards of 20 reloads and found no noticeable thinning on 243ai brass. I do usually get nervous somewhere around 25 or so loads and throw them away.

An interesting experience I had that illustrated the above happened last year. I had a 223 bolt gun built to practice for prs for cheaper. I started with once fired lake city surplus brass. It took a good bit of sizing and trimming to get them to fit in the chamber after likely being fired in a sloppy mil chamber. Some were sized close to .010 and had to be run into the die twice to get them to the proper headspace for my chamber. I continued to run those cases with a .001 shoulder bump. At 5 firings I began to have case head separations with that brass. The stretch from the first firing had thinned the case walls significantly and lead to very early case failure. After that I bought 1000 pcs of starline 223 brass and started again. We will see how long it lasts. It is only on firing number 4 or 5.

Proceed as you wish. New brass with a new barrel is easier except for Wildcats that require fireforming. It just isn't as cheap. By sizing minimally and annealing every 3 firings or less you can make good brass like Lapua or Peterson last a damn long time. I have even had old Winchester brass go 20 something reloads in a 243ai and still going. When the barrel on my coyote rifle is done, that brass is going in the trash though.

Good luck with your reloading. It is a pretty fun hobby until you start doing it so all 4 people in your family can shoot 3k-5k rounds a year. It's more like a second job at that point lol.

Thank you, my friend.

All of you guys have been really GREAT to a new reloader and I'm sure I'll come back with more dumb questions.

Cheers

 

[DownhillFromHere]

...but does a .001 or even .002 variation in shoulder bump make any real difference in performance. I don't see that small of diff causing any issues with bolt closure or....???

My longtime friend and gunsmith showed me how close tolerances can be. He had finished machining a Bartlein .224" blank into a finished .223 Remington barrel and had just screwed it into its Defiance Deviant action. Puts in the "go gauge" and closes bolt. Good. Takes out the "go gauge," puts a little piece of cellophane tape on its head, reinserts, and tries to close the bolt. Nope, won't close. I just checked... the cellophane tape I have by my loading bench measures just under 0.002" or thinner than a sheet of newsprint.

...the modified case [Hornady] provide is good but need to find delta from my cases and take that into account for distance to lands.

I think you just gave me another reason to use my slit-case-neck method - because the slit case was fired in my rifle and its shoulder bumped back two-thousandths. No deltas need be determined. Also, the reason I flat quit tying to make the Hornady tool work was because I could "measure" five times and get five different readings, none of which was within a few thousandths of the +/- 0.001" readings I got with the slit case method.

I don't think I need to anneal until...what, at least a few firings?

Read the zillion threads here and reach your own conclusions. Some people will go multiple firings. I anneal after every firing because it's easy to do with the AMP... about 10 cases per minute. No set-up time beyond turn it on, select Aztec mode, enter the correct code for current lot of brass (I write the codes down after running the auto-detect routine on a sacrificial case), and go.

May I as what you shoot that you do barrel swaps to a .223?

This was my project rifle last year. It's a Defiance Deviant short action with .473" bolt fitted with an extra .384" bolt for .223. I bought a barrel vise and R700 action wrench to facilitate switching. It works ok - just not terribly convenient as I torque the barrels to 60 ft/lb which is enough to makle me want to remove the action from its chassis to switch barrels (some people clamp the barrel in the vise out near the muzzle or have flats machined out there for a wrench). The .223 barrel's 100-yard zero is 0.5 mil low and 0.5 mil right of the 6.5CM barrel and switching calibers does return to consistent zeroes. It's easy to enter the offsets in Strelok Pro for the .223 so I don't have to dink with re-zeroing the scope.

I'm not at all sure I can do any PRS type positional shooting. Can't kneel and even just being on my knees is tough but I need to get some knee pads and see if that helps...it should. BUT, I would like to find a place, maybe next year, where I can get maybe a day of one on one instruction at a site that has props and see just what I can and can't do.

I'm roughly in the same condition. Can't kneel - right knee / leg won't bend and support weight for a true kneeling position. Earlyu on, I could not shoot from a prone position because my neck wouldn't bend enough. But, I did what you describe: I paid for a 1-day train-up 1x1 with a coach. It was useful, and you should certainly do so if the opportunity presents. I had lumbar surgery late last year because my legs had started going numb, along with radiating pain that had become debilitating. Surgery totally fixed it. I am blessed.

With that said, you can work on what you can/can't do with all sorts of everyday objects like ladders, 5-gallon pails on their ends or sides, stairs, rope suspended between posts, folding chairs, you name it. If you have access to one or more 55-gallon barrels, practice shooting off it when it's on its end, when it's on its side perpendicular to line of fire, when it's parallel to line or fire, and any other variation of those "planes" you can dream up. Once you figure out how to shoot accurately from it, then you have to practice transitioning from one to another. It's those movements which involve going from standing to on knees or prone or vice versa that kill me - it takes me a week to get up from prone.

Here's the thing: if you know your rifle and can hit your shots from a stable position, you'll already be ahead of a quarter to a third of the people who typically show up. That was what my instructor said 2 1/2 years ago, and I've found it to be true. I typically do well on stages where the shooter takes a position and engages multiple targets at multiple ranges (typically, 2 shots hit or miss at each of 5 targets, total 10 shots). I do awful on move-shoot-move stages which involve going prone and getting back up because it takes so long; I usually get off no more than 4-5 shots in a 90-second par time.

So what? A "win" for me is finishing a PRS match without falling out from summer heat or heart failure or something. As long as I can maintain pace with a PRS squad and it's not a ruck-your-gear-five-miles style of match, I hope to keep playing a few more years.

 

[MakeSawdust]

https://www.wheeleraccuracy.com/videos

How To Measure The Distance To The Lands On Your Rifle Barrel

One of the benefits of reloading your own ammo is that you can customize it to your chamber. Factor...

precisionrifleblog.com

These are the only two methods I have found to give roughly .002 accuracy on a consistent basis.

Also, watch the video on YouTube by Erik Cortina called Chasing The Lands is STUPID! Don't Do It

You will learn that it is not completely necessary to find the lands at all. I still find the lands because I want to be sure I am out of the lands, so there is no chance I will stick a bullet at a match or hunting. I have done it when fireforming Wildcats and it makes a damn mess. Once you find the node you are set. It doesn't matter how you get there.

 

[Baron23]

I think you just gave me another reason to use my slit-case-neck method - because the slit case was fired in my rifle and its shoulder bumped back two-thousandths. No deltas need be determined. Also, the reason I flat quit tying to make the Hornady tool work was because I could "measure" five times and get five different readings, none of which was within a few thousandths of the +/- 0.001" readings I got with the slit case method.

haha...yeah, I may find that tool to have been a waste of money but its a start and I will find out for myself. As my friend, Wheeler Johnson, was always won't to say: "experience, you can't buy it but you will pay for it"! haha

So, you pull the fire control and ejector out of the bolt to do this, right? So, how do you get the shell/bullet out of the chamber without pushing the bullet into the case? I assume a rod but if the slit case neck is tight enough to hold the projectile in place when being pushed out, would it not be so tight as to actually jam into the lands rather than just meet it? I'm guessing it must be as otherwise you would see marks from the lands on the bullet, right?

'm roughly in the same condition. Can't kneel - right knee / leg won't bend and support weight for a true kneeling position. Earlyu on, I could not shoot from a prone position because my neck wouldn't bend enough. But, I did what you describe: I paid for a 1-day train-up 1x1 with a coach. It was useful, and you should certainly do so if the opportunity presents.

Wow, yeah...this aging thing really isn't for pussies. I'm just trying to hold off fusion which would be the next step as I had a laminectomy in 2008, as mentioned the disk has degenerated since, and fusion would be next. It may make things wonderful, but it may make things worse and there ain't no going back. Fusion is the end of the road...well, aside from more fusion. So, I'm trying everything else.

And thanks for the confirmation that I'm not being silly about trying to take a one dayer with someone at a range with props and just see what I can/can't do. I think it would be illuminating and great fun. I love being challenged in clinic type situations. Just seems like fun to me.

A "win" for me is finishing a PRS match without falling out from summer heat or heart failure or something

hahahaha....that's how I felt at the end of registered skeet shooting in Aug in Maryland. I'm sure NC is even hotter and more humid, but not by much I bet. On this subject, its occurred to me that in a number of threads, like the fancy shotgun one, that I have referenced running shoots, shooting with some big dogs, etc. I want to be VERY clear....I was never a great skeet shooter. Just a decent club shooter but I absolutely knew how to move with the squad and behave the same way coming off station whether I hit the target or not. So, I did shoot on some squads with some very, very good shooters. But me...well, truth be told I've never had even a drop of natural athletic talent in my body (haha), so there is that.

@MakeSawdust - thank you yet again. All of you guys have been great. I will follow those links you provided today. I have seen just a couple Cortina vids and it seems that in addition to being a champ shooter and an expert gunsmith, he's a really funny guy and would prob be a blast to have a beer with. All good, my friend.

P.S. - just peeked at the Wheeler site...wow, looks like a ton of very helpful vids there. Thanks!!

Cheers

 

[DownhillFromHere]

So, you pull the fire control and ejector out of the bolt to do this, right? So, how do you get the shell/bullet out of the chamber without pushing the bullet into the case? I assume a rod but if the slit case neck is tight enough to hold the projectile in place when being pushed out, would it not be so tight as to actually jam into the lands rather than just meet it?

My process step by step:

1. Remove the bolt. You won't need it.
2. Find a cleaning rod appropriate for caliber. Coated is nice. Main thing is you'll be inserting the rod from muzzle end and you want to insure you do not damage the crown in any way. Remove any brush or jag.
3. Resize your slit-neck, de-primed case. If it's slit correctly, it will take a resize and hold a bullet in place snugly but allow the bullet to slide without undue effort.
4. Seat the bullet at least 0.01 - 0.02" long. For "optimal precision," insert it via your seating die.
5. Push the "cartridge" into the chamber until it stops on the case shoulder. Of course, you'll feel the bullet encounter the lands and slide back into the case.
6. Carefully, gently insert your cleaning rod into the muzzle - again, with diligent care to protect the crown - until it stops against the bullet.
7. Gently apply pressure to the rod until you feel the bullet "pop loose" from the lands. Do not push the "cartridge" out of the chamber. If the slit-neck tension is correct, the bullet will not move in the case as it comes out of the lands, nor will the bullet show significant (if any) rifling marks.
8. Pull the rods back a couple inches.
9. Repeat steps 5-8 until, when you push the "cartridge" back in step 7, you feel no resistance from the bullet coming out of the lands.
10. Use your caliper with a Hornady bullet comparator or similar to measure CBTO with the bullet barely touching the lands. Sure, you can simply measure head-to-tip OAL, but open-tip bullets especially vary in length by a few thousandths. Base to ogive is preferred.
11. Repeat the process until you're getting CBTO measurements consistent to +/- 0.001.

This is my process and I trust it. That doesn't mean other approaches don't work.

While it's good to consult info sources like SH early on in the rifle journey, we all learn and shoot in our own way. When I hear someone say "my way is right and anybody that says otherwise is stupid," I cringe.

Going back to our skeet experiences, I once ref'ed a squad whose members I didn't know - it was a $10,000 added-purse shoot that had Wayne Mayes and other world-class shooters there. So this guy steps up on 1, loads, starts the gun up to his shoulder, and calls "Pull" with the stock still two inches out and down. I was surprised and had the good sense to do nothing for a second, then call "No bird" rather than give him a slow pull. I apologized for my "balk;" he actually thanked me and said most refs would have done the slow-pull thing - to which he was accustomed because of his totally unorthodox address and call.

My point: he was a nationally-ranked AAA shooter whose "way" violated the standards of how to shoot American skeet. Was he "wrong?" His scores told the tale.

I want to be VERY clear....I was never a great skeet shooter.

Me either, achieving AAA in all 4 notwithstanding. As one of the Liberty Mafia said, "AAA is what everybody wants to get to but, soon, not want to be." Unless you can consistently run the hundred and run a box or two in 3-4-5 shootoffs, you won't be on the podium at big shoots. I was always a better ref than shooter, and the compliments I got from the likes of Mayes et al meant as much as any wins I ever had. And learning to show the class of Mayes, Downing, and others is applicable to rifle or any other discipline - and to participating in these forums.

 

[Steel head]

This is how you know where their lengths are on the shoulder, you use a datum. For this they use a .400" datum
View attachment 7601167
Datum is just a plane, in this case its a plane thats bisecting a cone. The easy way to do that is to put it into a circle thats .400 in diameter. Now the gauges are all that but they have a bit of chamfer thats not the same so they are really plus minus a few from saami actual numbers, thats why its a relative measurement (relative to fired) and not an absolute number. They should be close but not exact.
View attachment 7601168

How do you measure that? Comparators.
View attachment 7601169

Your widden gauge does the same thing though.
View attachment 7601170



And to avoid measureing with the protruding primer you need to reseat the primer, deprime it or measure whth a hold under the primer but supporting the brass.

I deprime. Just knock the primer alone out and measure the brass without interference. The lee is 12 bucks, the redding is 24 but comes with the small pin for the small european flash holes.
View attachment 7601171

Professor spife!