new to a bench source annealing machine

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cobyb

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#1
the instructions say to use tempilaq 650 for the neck and shoulder and 400 for the case head. I have also read that brass needs to be heated to 650 for several minutes to become annealed, witch is not possible without destroying the case, so it needs to get hotter for a shorter amount of time. I believe I read that on the ballistic edge site. with all the variables not sure witch direction to head down. I set my machine up according to the bench source directions with the torch heads parallel with the table about 5/8 of an inch between the brass and flame tip and pointed in between the shoulder. with federal 308 brass and the 650 tempilaq at 3.5 seconds, the tempilaq burned off about 3/16 of an inch below the shoulder. is this good enough. is their anyway to test the case, I have tried the vise grips and im not real confident that it is a good test.

my goal is consistent neck tension, what has produced good results for you.
thanks coby
 
#2
here is how i set my machine up.
i use 650 tempilaq and 450 tempilaq
i set the flame 1/4" out side of the case plate.

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#4
I set my machine up a little differently than Joemusso. Instead of having the torches located on the inside of the vertical posts, I set them on the outside in order for the flames to be further apart. I adjust the tip of the flame to be approximately 3/8" from the from the case with the tip slightly above the shoulder junction. I would suggest using the Tempilaq as recommended and experiment with some sacrificial cases. Start with a shorter time duration and gradually increase it until you get the desired results. Trust the Tempilaq since color change is not a reliable indicator. I have seen variance in color with the same make of brass even when the heat and time were the same. Good luck.
 
#5
I guess what im asking is their a way to test the brass without reloading and shooting to see if the brass case is properly annealed. their are different opinions with what temp and how long to cook the brass.im running the brass through the machine for 3.5 seconds, with the flame tips about 5/8 away from the neck pointed at the shoulder, the 650 tempilaq melt off to about 3/16 below the shoulder. what yields good results for you guys
 
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#7
Most likely. Just practice with some sacrificial cases and see how it goes. No harm in under annealing the brass and you can always run them through again once they cool. BTW I air cool the cases after they have been annealed.
 
#8
cobyb said:
the instructions say to use tempilaq 650 for the neck and shoulder and 400 for the case head. I have also read that brass needs to be heated to 650 for several minutes to become annealed,
Click to expand...

Several minutes? No way. Don't even bother with the tempilaq. I anneal by hand, with a blow torch. I hold the neck in the cone of the flame while twisting. When I see the slightest hint of orange metal, I am done. The anneal mark carries down past the shoulder, just about the same as you see on new Lapua brass. The process is about 5-6 seconds. I would set the machine to do just that.
 
#10
Diver160651 said:
Bad advice ! You have two torch heads - temp of the brass is a combination of source temp, distance and time. Apples to something else..

The bench source is a great tool, just be careful not to get derailed. On my BS with the two pencil burners I also am about 3.5 seconds. You should not see the brass turn color



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


this is what I was thinking but i wanted a way to be sure that the brass was annealed
 
#11
According to an article on 6mmbr.com

"The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds."

I use 750 degree Tempilaq with my Giraud annealer.
Guessing at how hot the neck is getting based on time and flame height is not for me, I measure it.
I measure everything else in the case prep process, why would I skimp on this part?
I paint up 10 cases or so, setting the machine up uses a few, then I slip the others in as I'm running the cases to eliminate drift of the process.

I can pickup cases straight out of the machine by the base. The base gets warm, not hot.

Joe
 
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#12
Diver160651 said:
Bad advice ! You have two torch heads - temp of the brass is a combination of source temp, distance and time. Apples to something else..

The bench source is a great tool, just be careful not to get derailed. On my BS with the two pencil burners I also am about 3.5 seconds. You should not see the brass turn color



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I didn't mean set the machine for 5-6 seconds, I meant to set it to an appropriate time where you get a distinct anneal line just below the shoulder. I know now that my statement was a bit unclear, and I apologize if it sounded like I was giving instructions for time.
 
#14
cobyb said:
Joe so when your setting up do you have it set so the brass drops right when the 750 melts down to a certain point of the case.
Thanks coby
Click to expand...

I point the single torch at where the shoulder meets the case neck.
I apply 4 or 5 stripes of Tempilaq inside the case neck so I can always see at least one stripe as the case rotates.
As soon as I see a stripe change color, the case is done.
Generally I set the flame to where I think it should be then vary the speed (cycle time) to get the result I want.
A friend has a turntable style annealer and he says it takes about 5 seconds per case but he has the two burners.
My Giraud is a little slower at nearly 10 seconds per case (about 8 seconds of heat) but I can load the bin up then keep an eye on it while I run some ammo through a press in the same room.
I'm not watching the machine constantly but every so often I slip one of the cases with Tempilaq into the process to ensure it has not drifted.

Joe
 
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#16
fireEMT5 said:
Another thing to consider is to set up your Bench Source machine with the hose setup to run from a 20 lb. propane cylinder vs. the small bottles on each torch. You will keep a much more consistent temp this way.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-convert-yours-run-one-10lb-propane-tank.html
Click to expand...

Something like this, only with a splitter. I find that it works best if I open the torch valve all the way and control the flame with the regulator... 10 psi seems to work real nice for me.

Joe
 

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#17
.....and in the long run, a 10 (or 20) pound bottle is cheaper. If you have a gas grill, use that bottle...lol

Far as checking the necks, it's all about springback and that takes some finesse on your part. They do make machines that check the ductility and elongation but you can't afford one.

Vicegrips and an old multiple fired case (for comparison) and your annealed case and some patience will yield the proper amount of annealing and that applies to the mechanized method (Bench Source, Giraud) or the hand method (twirl in the flame) though any mechanized method with controllable dwell time is more consistent.
 
#19
cobyb said:
I guess what im asking is their a way to test the brass without reloading and shooting to see if the brass case is properly annealed. their are different opinions with what temp and how long to cook the brass.im running the brass through the machine for 3.5 seconds, with the flame tips about 5/8 away from the neck pointed at the shoulder, the 650 tempilaq melt off to about 3/16 below the shoulder. what yields good results for you guys
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are painting the outside of the case.
You want to paint the inside of the neck, otherwise the flame directly on the Tempilaq will totally skew your results.

Joe
 
#20
cobyb said:
I guess what im asking is their a way to test the brass without reloading and shooting to see if the brass case is properly annealed. their are different opinions with what temp and how long to cook the brass.im running the brass through the machine for 3.5 seconds, with the flame tips about 5/8 away from the neck pointed at the shoulder, the 650 tempilaq melt off to about 3/16 below the shoulder. what yields good results for you guys
Click to expand...

On my Benchsource I use 700 degree Tempilaq. I ended up just using one burner turned all the way up which takes 4.2 seconds on .013"-.015" thick necks. The Tempilaq has just finished melting when the machine moves the brass out of the flame so I'm guessing the necks get to 750 or so.

I did some tests when I first got this annealer trying to find the fine point concerning spring back in the necks with the vice grip method.

Using color as a indicator often ruined cases. Sometimes I'd run heat on the cases for 8- 10 seconds before they turned that blueish color. There was no spring back in the necks left at all. Different brands of brass and different sized cases give very different results in the way they look and how long they took to change color.

Next I tried it in a dimly lit room looking for that faint hint of a orange glow as a indicator to stop, which cooked the cases as well but not as bad as looking for color alone.

Next in a pitch black dark room looking for that hint of a faint orange glow in the neck. This worked very well and the necks had spring back. It also coincided with the melting of the Tempilaq.

I agree with Joe, the necks should reach 750-800 degrees.

I wouldn't worry about the heat ruining the web area of the case as this isn't going to happen in 3.5-4.5 seconds.
 
#21
very cool guys, sounds like I have a few things to try. I am kinda pist with bench source for recommending the 650, when it is not a the best choice. I had to order that crap online.
ill try the vise grip test a little more and tempilaq on the inside of the case

thank you all very much and merry Christmas
coby
 
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