F T/R Competition New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

R

rmercado

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Minuteman
Aug 10, 2011
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Austin, Texas
#1
Hi,

New to long range shooting in general, but very interested in competing in F/TR as soon as I decide on a rifle and optics. I've done a bunch of googling on all things related to long range shooting and I know I have years of learning ahead of me. I also discussed a custom build rifle with a local builder. I've also looked at a couple rifles locally. Now for my choices: custom rifle from local builder - up to 28 weeks of lead time due to barrel availability: Surgeon action, Jewell trigger, McMillan stock, and Krieger barrel. OR, 26" Sako TRG-22. OR 20" LaRue OBR 7.62. I would also like to use this gun in tactical precision matches as well. Thoughts? Open to suggestions.

Thanks.
 
#4
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

Savage F/TR or Palma if you need a rifle now. The requirements of F/TR and tactical matches are at cross purposes... for F/TR you want a load that stays supersonic at 1000yds with competitive wind drift. That usually means a 30" or longer barrel so you can get a 155gr Palma bullet to 2950fps+ or a 175gr or 185gr bullet to 2750fps+. For tactical matches, you want a shorter, handier gun, and the target is usually larger (steel, etc.), and its hard to get those kinds of velocities out of a 26" or shorter barrel without running your loads fairly hot.

If you're not planning to shoot at 1000yds then a tactical style rifle would work very well. I have seen TRGs and the like at matches, but at 1000yds the scores are low and most people don't persist with those types of rifles for very long.

As for scopes, again cross purposes... in F-Class, you want as much magnification as possible and fine (1/8moa or 1/4moa) adjustments because the X-ring is only 5 inches (0.5moa) at 1000 yds. Therefore, the NF NSX and BR 8-32 and 12-42s, the Sightron SIII 8-32 and 10-60s, and the 36x fixed power scopes are all seen. For a tactical scope, you want a mil-based reticle and ideally mil-based clicks. Again, the requirements work a cross purposes -- keeping in mind that the X-ring is 5" at 1000yds, a 0.1 mil click is 3.6 inches at 1000yds, whereas 1/8moa is around 1.25". I had a Premier 5-25 that I shot in F-Open but the reticle and coarse 0.1mil adjustments worked against me, and my scores improved when I traded it 2 NF BR 12-42's.

Also, I ordered a Brux barrel earlier this year and got it in 8 weeks, as promised. There's a member on this site, bugholes, who stocks Brux, Rock Creek, and Obermeyer. I would put any of those up against a Krieger, so there's no need to wait that long.
 
#6
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

nhm16, thank you for your insight... I guess I will need dedicated platforms for each to be competitive. I will research the F/TR and Palma. Also, appreciate the education on the scopes... I'll keep on looking - I like browsing the for sale boards anyway. :)
 
#7
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

Cutting through all the stuff. You need to decide if your primary will be F TR or Tactical because a dedicated want to win at top FTR Rifle wont work for Tactical and a Tactical Rifle wont be able to consistently beat a top F TR Rifle.

With that said I would get a 26" bbl's 308, like a GAP, Surgeon, TACOPS, or TRG22, with first three being my recommendations if you can find one fast enough.

With this rifle you can win local matches and occasionally agaisnt some top rifles but you are giving up 10% which translates to points.

On scopes the 8.5-25 MK4 is serving me well but for just FTR you can go with a fixed 35X and save some money
 
#8
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

Mike,

I was leaning more towards getting a tactical platform and participating in F/TR. I know I'm giving up some points, but for now, I don't know how fast (or if ever) I could build the skills to get to the limits of my equipment.

-RM.
 
#9
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

Thank right to chase. I would call George Gardner and tell him what you want. While the other smiths build a great rifle that will shoot fantastic George/GAP has been building rifles to do both Tactical and F TR for a real long time. George and Moon are is freaking magicians with multiuse rifles. Just bite bullet and wait for rifle to be made. I would go with 1x11.27 twist 5R, 26" either Bartlein ( tite bore) or Rock 5R, in Manners stock, Crusdader action, Badger Detachable floor metal. I would go with rear focal plane scope in either a 6.5-20 or 8.25-25 range with what ever click value you like but I am prone, when shooting F Class to keeping a MOA scale click value. I use .25 moa most of the time though.

My first year doing hard core F TR I ran a box stock GAP M40A3 with 24" bbl and did darn well. The second through third year I ran a GAP Remington 700 with 28" bbl and won a few big matches because rifle was far better than me. I now run a GAP Barnard full build and have lost all excuses when I do poorly. This rifle hammers one round inside the last round

If you go GAP I can rpobably help as I have done alot of load testing with that set up
 
#10
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

I would agree with nhm... If you want to be competitive in either disicpline you need to have a rifled geared toward that discipline even though those rifles would work in either situation even though they wouldnt be ideal. I have shot in a tactical match with someone shooting their single shot F-class rifle. Granted it was not the ideal setup it still worked. My suggestion would be determine what you prefer to shoot and build a gun to that discipline and shoot the heck out of it. My rifle is a tactial rifle that I shoot in f-class matches. It isnt as competitive as some of the purpose built f-class rilfes but I can hold my own and learn something each time I go out and shoot.
 
#11
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

Nothing wrong with running a multi-purpose rifle if you just want to get out there and enjoy the shooting action and camaraderie. If you want to be a Top Gun in a particular shooting sport (i.e. F/TR, F/O, Tac Rifle, etc) then by all means focus your time, effort, $$ and build a rifle that meet your needs for that specific application.

I shot NRA High Power Service Rifle matches the last couple of years. Started with an AR-15 I had laying around, then had a rifle custom built for that purpose. I had a blast (literally) and learned enough about LR shooting that now I'm shifting over to what you are thinking about. I want to shoot out to 1000yards, shoot some F/TR, shoot some Tac Rifle matches. I found a real nice, GAP rifle, that I bought used and will be using for multi-purpose shooting as described. My emphasis for this gun will be to shoot Tac Rifle, but it will be perfectly acceptable for F/TR stuff as well. I don't expect to win any Top Gun F/TR awards, but I can get out there and do it anyway and that's all I'm looking for. One thing I have learned is if you buy a rifle of top notch pedigree, then you cannot blame your gun, so that allows you to focus on your technique. Also pedigree rifles and optics, although expensive up front, have best resale value. There is usually some good used stuff available if you take the time to look, so I highly recommend this option as you can save some $$ if you are careful.

I bought my used GAP rifle and new NF optic, with all accessories, ready to shoot matches, for what just a new GAP rifle would have cost.

Just my .02 cents... And remember to have some fun
cool.gif
!!!
 
#12
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

Thanks all, so much to consider... I do enjoy the research part, and should be closer to a decision once I visit with the local smith and get this thoughts. I'm starting to get a little anxious about building my rig and starting to shoot it.
 
#13
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

I can tell you that shooting a "tactical" (hate that term) rifle in F class will make you pay very close attention to wind, and if it's switchy or shifty you are going to drop more points than the guys with long tubes because you are giving up an inch or more in windage per MPH. They'll be getting on the line 9s and you'll be getting 8s, and it only takes a couple of those and your score is in the 180s and they are in the 190s.

That doesn't mean it's not a lot of fun, you are just playing with a handicap, and many of the guys you are shooting against don't need you to spot them points. So the question becomes do you want to participate or compete?
 
#14
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

XTR, I understand. I want to watch an F-class match and talk to some folks before I make a final decision. They only happen around here every month or so (at least, from what I found). I've made contact with the match director and he has graciously offered to help in my research. I'll likely end up with purpose build platforms for both....
 
#15
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

If you are going F TR specific want consider this
Barnard Single Shot Action'
McMillan Prone Stock
30" Medium Palma 1x11.27 5R Kreiger
Long Range Accuracy Bipod


I am running a 35x Comp Series Leupold for a scope with MK4 Aluminum Rings
 
#16
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

I'm curious as to what all you F/TR guys would think about using a Tubb Spec-tac-lar in 308 either with the stock barrel or with a longer aftermarket barrel. Would this be a good choice ?
 
#17
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

I used one for a while. Mine had the scope base angled to side not straight up so you had to angle rifle. It drove me nuts.

I understand the new ones have the ability to have scope straight above bore line not angled to side so that issue seems solved.The rifle is scary accurate and can win any match

Next issue is the scope base is flat so you need to add an angled top base to it. I ran a 20 moa NXS Mount on top of mine
 
#18
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

Would you classify the Tubb Spec-tac-lar as a .25 MOA stick on a par with a GAP or Tac-Ops etc.? Also if I were to go with the Tubb in F/TR would you shoot it in .223 or .308 ? Do you think the stock Schneider barrel is long enough or would you go with a longer aftermarket barrel ?

Thanks in advance
 
#19
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

I can say this. I shoot better with my GAP FTR Rifle than I do with my Tubbs

As for shooting groups all three put them in one hole so no real winner

Its all about what it is ment for.

Tacops and Gap make far better sniper rifles than the Tubb

Tubb is better across course rifle

Gap with Barnard is far better F TR Rifle, for me that Tubb, thats why I changed.

These are just my opinions based on shooting the rifles. You may like the Tubb better. Like I said I dont like having to angle the rifle when I pull into shoulder.
 
#21
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

rmercado,

Obviously I am a fan of the Savage mod.12 F-T/R, but almost any of the rifles mentioned above will do. If you are looking at doing F-T/R at all, I would strongly recommend a 28" barrel or longer. Even if you start out shooting exclusively short or mid range (out to 600 yards), you will eventually want to move up and shoot long range stuff. With 28"+ barrel length, you will be able to get your rounds going fast enough that you'll be able to compete with anyone out there.

Hope this helps,

Darrell Buell
 
#22
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

I have had a Barnard, a Panda, two Remmys, and an RPA...all FTR rifles. That being said, if I was starting out today I would buy a Savage and spend the rest of the money on bullets.

AG
 
#23
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

Darrell, I read conflicting ideas about barrel length, but I figure that would all be application specific. A dedicated F/TR rifle would want the last bit of velocity, I'm guessing. I know I will not go shorter than 26". Is the difference between 26" vs. 28" and 30" very significant? Would I see significant windage difference? I have no experience, so I'm asking. Thanks for the input.
 
#25
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rmercado</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jeffbird, looks like I missed the high power match for August. I'll keep a look out for the match in September. </div></div>

Thread just down the page

I've been asked if I was writing a book on F-TR rifles here. Right after Low Light gave us this forum I started a whole bunch of threads on F-TR equipment. Take a look through this forum. There is also a loads thread. Not sure we've had one on stocks yet....
 
#28
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: asbestosglove</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have had a Barnard, a Panda, two Remmys, and an RPA...all FTR rifles. That being said, if I was starting out today I would buy a Savage and spend the rest of the money on bullets.

AG </div></div>


That's hard to believe since you earned the F-tr 500 yard National Record last year with a Remington, and then won last months Longrange Match at Butner with the Panda. I think you're just trying to steer others away from what you know works.
wink.gif
 
#29
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

Well, since I started this thread, might as well give an update. After all the research, discussing pro's and con's, I'm going with an FN SPR. Talked to a local builder and he basically said to learn how to shoot with whatever 308 works for you and he recommended the Remington heavy barrel sale guns at Dicks and Cabelas. Told me he can adjust the trigger, some good optics on it and I'll be set... and he'll be ready when I want to upgrade. :)

Didn't go with the 700, or the Sako TRG... found something in between them that should work for me. A NF 5.5-22x50 will top it. Any one know what height NF rings I'll need for that scope? It will be on a NEAR 20 MOA rail on the FN.
Thanks for all the input.
 
#30
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

I know that you said that you made up your mind. Just in case you get a change of heart, I do not think that you can go wrong with the Saveage model 12 F / TR. I took off the funky cheek rest and installed an adjustable model from Karsten. Spend the rest on some good glass and bullets. Best of luck whichever way you go.
 
#32
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

If you look at what you get with the savage 12/ftr you might be making a mistake going with the FN . When I bought my 2 savage f/tr 223 and 308 rifles I went from not wanting to come in last to competing for win in the f/tr matches at Sac Valley ca. And the competition is heavy there. I won my first match a 3x600 with my 223 f/tr and have come close with the 308f/tr.
 
#33
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

I felt that my Savage F / TR was such a value for the money that I purchased the F Open in 6 BR. My load will shoot 4 shot groups at 100 yards ~ 1/4 - 1/3 of an inch. Shooting it tomorrow in the mid range regional out side of Cincinnati.
 
#37
Re: New to F/TR and deciding on a rifle

The SPR will do a much better job at F class than the Savage at tactical matches. A fine choice. For an f class rig though, that Savage s HARD TO BEAT.
 
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