Rifle Scopes New to Long Range Shooting

[Slyexx]

Although I've never shot a target past 3 or 400 yards, long range shooting is something that has always been of great interest to me, especially over the past 5 or so years. I am finally at a point in my life where I want to / can invest and try my hand at it. I was just recently turned onto Sniper's Hide from a fellow I met at the range last week. If you experienced folks here could lend an ear and help me choose my initial setup that would be awesome. I'll try to keep it on the scope topic, since that is what this particular forum is about.

Budget is flexible, but could vary depending on how much I spend on my rifle. Total combined I'm looking at around $2000 rifle/optic, but could stretch a little higher if convinced it makes sense for a beginner like myself.

My application would be target shooting out to 1000 yards. Maybe 1000+? Eventually I would like to enter local long range competitions (but to be honest I don't really know about what's out there or what the rules are, ie restrictions/distances). Basically, recreational shooting with the self awareness that I know how competitive I am and may want to get involved in competitions and see where that takes me.

Haven't decided on a rifle quite yet either, but zeroing in on 6.5 creedmoor if that makes a difference.

A few specific questions:

- I've been looking hard at the SWFA SS fixed 10x as a serviceable option to open up my budget up to accommodate a higher end rifle. Any opinions on that?

- To go along with above... Would a fixed 10x give me the power I need to be accurate at 1000 yards?

- When it comes to variable, what power range should I be looking at ( 5-25 ish ? ), and how much power is overkill or detrimental to quality (at my budget)?

- MRAD vs MOA and reticle choice. What should I be looking at, or looking to avoid?


I understand a lot of this is personal preference, but I like to seek as much good advice as I can get. Again, these questions are coming from a newbie, if that affects recommendations. I have spend dozens and dozens of hours reading and researching what I believe to be everything long range shooting over the past months, but any links or references to good articles or videos would be just as appreciated.

Thanks a lot
-Joe

 

[Darrenbcu]

I have the same question

 

[trob_205]

Download the PodBean app and start listening to “The Everyday Sniper”. A TON of information and whole episodes on your exact questions. It’s done by Frank the founder of snipers hide and Mike, a sales/shooter for mile high shooting. Not only does it hangs good info.. if you have questions on what you heard come back to the hide and frank has a everyday sniper section. Find the episode and typically frank will answer pretty quick. If it’s a big/important enough question he might even address it in another podcast.

 

[Dthomas3523]

+1 on the podcast. I listen on my to and from work everyday. Great stuff

On a budget of 2000, I'd personally go with the attitude of a little less gun and more scope than the other way around. Maybe something like a Tikka T3X CTR($819 shipped on some sites), and the best glass you can afford after that. Good deals come up here all the time on used glass.

Also, remember you'll need some quality base/rings(CTR has a zero MOA base) and you can eat up a decent amount of your budget. IE: you probably won't be getting something like a Spuhr mount for this setup.

If you know you're definitely going to stick with it, unless you know you'll have more funds later to put together a better build I'd suggest putting off the purchase a bit, saving up more, and buy once/cry once. You'll deal with less frustration in the long run not trying to sell off mid/low end equipment to fund a better setup. It will be worth the initial wait of a few months longer to start shooting. You'll be running around with something like a PST-II and look through a buddy's ATACR, PM II, Razor, Amg...etc, and you'll hate yourself every time you go back to your budget scope.

Mils/MOA.........listen to the podcast on mils vs moa asap. It makes an excellent point how Mils aren't bastardized and still pure. Whichever you decide to go with, whatever you do, don't think in linear units. This whole moa or mrad = x amount of inches at x amount of yards only convolutes things. Mrads and Moa are angular units and should for the most part only be taken as such.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Just an off the cuff quick piece together of parts that could get you into a pretty good rig. 2500-3000 budget (if you can swing it) would probably keep you from regretting making a budget build for 2,000. I'd personally get a Tikka CTR and drop it into a KRG or MDT chassis. This would push it up towards the 3000 range.

I believe they will be back in stock in May.

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...blue-6-5-creedmoor-6-threaded-prod103531.aspx

Add to cart and it's 1500 + a $50 gift card(and I believe Steiner still has a 10% rebate currently)

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...er_5112_3_15x50mm_scr_reticle_riflescope.html

Call optics planet and ask for a better price on rings, probably get them a bit cheaper

https://www.opticsplanet.com/seekins-precision-34mm-tube-riflescope-rings.html

Same thing with base. Call and ask for lower price

https://www.opticsplanet.com/talley...n-20-moa.html?_iv_code=9E-T8-PBSA20-PSM252150

KRG Bravo Chassis will be out later this year for individual purchase. $350ish. Or you can buy the Howa 1500 Bravo for about 1k.

So:

Barreled action 479
Steiner 1500
Rings 120
Base 70
Chassis 350
Total 2519

Keep in mind, this is the bare basic stuff. Bipods, Pic rails, Magazines........etc all add up. Things like this make it challenging to put together a rig you will be happy with long term for low budget. I'm a firm believer in buy once/cry once after going through the budget build process when I was younger.

 

[Evintos]

I place a higher priority on optics and rings over rifles.

I'll suggest a $3,000 starting budget for optic, rings, rifle if buying everything new ($2000 for optic and rings, $1000 for rifle).

I'll say around $2500 if you shop around used ($1500 for optic and rings, <$1000 for rifle)

Sales and stuff are out there. For example 30% off - Bushnell Rebate, 10% back - Steiner Rebate, one of the forum sponsors Sportoptics.com Promo/Sales page


Good glass will last you basically forever. If you browse the forum enough you'll find complaints of scope failures (zero shifting under recoil) , tracking issues, etc with lower end and even some mid level optics which will absolutely frustrate you as you try to practice. If you start off with a "budget" rifle and decide to get a new rifle in the future, why upgrade the optic if it still works and had the features you need/wanted in the first place.

Good and properly machined rings will hold the scope in place as well as not introduce mechanical error nor will it damage your optic. So rings are just as important as good optics.

Many $1000 factory 6.5CM rifles will do sub 1MOA. You can also rebarrel in the future if you shoot enough to erode the throat and end up with a sub 1/2 MOA firearm. While Remington 700's have the most support, their offerings may or may not be adequate due to inconsistent QC. Tikka is a good way to go. (I'm a Howa guy).

-----------------
- SWFA 10x - Not recommended

- 10x magnification is fine depending on target size and type. If you want to shoot small groups on paper at 1000yds, it's not impossible but not likely. Ringing steel - sure. You'll find yourself wanting more magnification depending on conditions.

- There is no correlation between optical quality and magnification range. 5-25x is a good range provided that the optic clarity is good. You can have poor optical clarity with 5-25x or 3-15x or 10x fixed. I suggest 5-25x range (with good optical clarity of course) because you can always dial down the magnification. There is no correlation between mechanical quality of an optic and magnification range either.

- MRAD is my preference but more importantly go with matching reticle and turret. So MRAD turret/MRAD reticle, or if you prefer MOA - MOA turret/MOA reticle

 

[W54/XM-388]

If you plan to shoot to 1000 yards or so, a 10x is going to basically be wasting money as you'll soon find you want more magnification available from time to time. Also in competition, you might find for close up targets such as in the 100 yard and closer, you want a bit lower magnification to scan for targets quicker. I'd suggest variable and then at least 16x on the high end, but the 20x to 25x high end seems to be really common on all the various makers these days.

For the rifle, there are lots of choices, but it would be hard to go wrong with one of the Ruger Precision rifles in 6.5 Creedmore.
Add a decent bipod like a harris that is sub $100 and a decent sling, a good scope mount & put a nice optic on it & you are all set).

The Optic will probably cost as much as the rifle (or more), but good ones can be had in the $1k and up range.

 

[Dthomas3523]

+1 on the optic lasing forever. Spending 2500 or so on a used high quality optic and something like a spuhr mount will last you as long as you want it to. No need to buy another optic ever, unless you want to keep up with the current trend at the time.

 

[spife7980]

Well I for one will give advice thats not 1k over your finances

A 3-18-4-16-5-25 will all be fine, better than a fixed 10x. I would like 16x for shooting at 1k yards, its just nicer to not have to squint into your scope to try and see targets. 10x only is able but not ideal.
The hottest deal Ive seen lately is on this scope for the price. Bushnell LRHS 425-18 http://www.gaprecision.net/ga-store/optics/bushnell-lrhs-4-5-18x44-g2h-illum.html

Throw that on top of an ruger precision, tikka ctr, or howa hcr for 1k bucks. The ruger precision in 6 creed is 799 and thats a heack of a deal, the 6.5 is a couple hundred more. That should give you 150 after shipping for some rings and you will be perfectly capable to shooting to 1k.

There are so many capable options these days that unless you have a philosophical objection to something I say to buy whats on sale. Sure the lrhs may be discontinued soon but that doesnt mean the scope is any less capable than it is today.

 

[DrainTheSwamp]

In your 2000$ budget are you also considering shooting bags, kestrel, bipod, and range finder?

These were some things I overlooked when I first started. Luckily I had friends willing to let me borrow some gear.

If your budget is really 2k I’m not gonna tell you to just spend 3k and be done with it. It can be done, but rifles come and go, good optics are proli what you ll hang onto in the long run, it’s hard when you’re first starting to wanna spend a shit ton on optics but it’s worth it

 

[Bender]

SWFA fixed 10x or 12x is an excellent choice for casual shooters. 12x will get you to 1000x with ease. It is reliable and tough as a red brick.

SWFA 3-15x42 is $699 and as tough as they come.

Zero stops save time in matches but are not necessary.

Burris XTR II

Ruger precision Rifle was just under $1k shipped from Grabagun.com

Rings are important, figure $150-200 for a nice matched set.

Use the rest of your money on ammunition, Sportsman’s warehouse had bulk 140g 6.5 creedmoor for 200rds $139.

Don’t get caught up in glass quality, buy a tough scope that tracks. You are not a cinematographer or birdwatcher. Remember it is a weapons sight, and glass is always subjective. You need TRACKING FIRST. Glass quality is last.

 

[Bender]

Well I for one will give advice thats not 1k over your finances

A 3-18-4-16-5-25 will all be fine, better than a fixed 10x. I would like 16x for shooting at 1k yards, its just nicer to not have to squint into your scope to try and see targets. 10x only is able but not ideal.
The hottest deal Ive seen lately is on this scope for the price. Bushnell LRHS 425-18 http://www.gaprecision.net/ga-store/optics/bushnell-lrhs-4-5-18x44-g2h-illum.html

Throw that on top of an ruger precision, tikka ctr, or howa hcr for 1k bucks. The ruger precision in 6 creed is 799 and thats a heack of a deal, the 6.5 is a couple hundred more. That should give you 150 after shipping for some rings and you will be perfectly capable to shooting to 1k.

There are so many capable options these days that unless you have a philosophical objection to something I say to buy whats on sale. Sure the lrhs may be discontinued soon but that doesnt mean the scope is any less capable than it is today.

SHIT! That’s a great deal on that LHRS! $750 for a zero stop G2 reticle? I wish I saw this before buying my Weaver! Lol

 

[grizzlestomp]

I went through a very similar decision-making process starting about a year ago. Ended up buying and selling two production rifles and one scope and having a custom rifle built instead. Still haven't decided what optic will sit on top. I would highly recommend taking your time and doing your research before making any purchase. Also, scour the classified ads on this site for both rifles and optics. Lots of people upgrade to the latest and greatest and sell their "old" custom rifles and high end optics for steep discounts.

A few examples, granted beyond what you were looking to spend, but just to give you an idea.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/custom-rem700-308-manner-and-uso-lr17.6789060/
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...el-manners-elite-timney.6605963/#post-6910252

 

[SauerJ67]

I have recently changed my mind set to "buy once, cry once." I own a fixed 10x SWFA SS in MRAD. Although i do like the scope I hate the way you zero the turrets and the fact there is no zero stop(unless you go with custom shims to put under the caps). Looking back I wish I would have gone with a higher dollar variable powered scope in FFP, but I had a bitch of a wife back then that I turned into my current EX.... LOL.
As far as the MRAD or MOA pick what the other guys or gals are using that you are shooting with so it's easier to communicate, learn the scope lay out and how to measure and hold with the reticle and go for it.
I'm currently in the market to replace that scope and I have narrowed it down to a Night Force ATACR, SB PMII, or Vortex Razor all in the area of 5-25x....like I said I am going to buy once cry once. haha
Just my 2 cents

 

[davsco]

as mentioned a really good scope will last forever, no upgrades needed. love my nightforce 5.5-22x56, see some on sale used here from time to time. seems like a decent selection of 1moa (or better) rifles around the $1k price point. of course we're already $1k above your $2k budget.

hit a long range or precision match or two or three and see what everyone is using (rifle, scope, gear). most if not all will let you play with their stuff to give you a better idea of what you may like.

i wouldn't worry about rangefinder, kestrel or the like for at least your first couple of matches, most will share info with you if you let them know your new(ish).

 

[timmyb]

SHIT! That’s a great deal on that LHRS! $750 for a zero stop G2 reticle? I wish I saw this before buying my Weaver! Lol

Well hell, it's out of stock. Anyone else have a great sales price on the Bushnell LRHS scope?

 

[Slyexx]

An overwhelming response from the community here. I appreciate every bit of your guys effort. Here's some follow ups:
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Download the PodBean app and start listening to “The Everyday Sniper”...

Awesome. Sounds like just what I needed for the car rides.

If your budget is really 2k I’m not gonna tell you to just spend 3k and be done with it. It can be done, but rifles come and go, good optics are proli what you ll hang onto in the long run

I place a higher priority on optics and rings over rifles.
I'll suggest a $3,000 starting budget for optic, rings, rifle if buying everything new ($2000 for optic and rings, $1000 for rifle).
I'll say around $2500 if you shop around used ($1500 for optic and rings, <$1000 for rifle)

Well I for one will give advice thats not 1k over your finances

Looking back I wish I would have gone with a higher dollar variable powered scope in FFP, but I had a bitch of a wife back then that I turned into my current EX.... LOL.

I wanted to clarify the budget piece as it might help you guys better direct me down this path:


I included that last quote in here for a reason. My wife is a big part of what's keeping this budget down. Not the bitch and or soon to be Ex part, but as many I'm sure can understand, I have to justify a multi thousand dollar purchase.


Example of where I’m at: "Hey, you remember me saying I want to shoot targets really far? Well anyways, I just spent $5000 on what I need to be competitive." It just won't work. I need to find a price where I can get in, have fun, and be relevant. Once my idea turns into commitment, I will have no problem swinging a couple grand just on a scope a year or so from now.


So to sum it up. $2000 is pushing my limit for not pissing my wife off to insanity but hopefully getting something that will suit my application. Luckily I'm in a position where I can afford more, but not so easy to brief to the wife at my current status of a newbie entering into long range shooting.
Suffice it to say, it's not about saving money. I could save for 10 years, but still got to convince the wife to allow me to release the funds.

On a budget of 2000, I'd personally go with the attitude of a little less gun and more scope than the other way around.

+1 on the optic lasing forever. Spending 2500 or so on a used high quality optic and something like a spuhr mount will last you as long as you want it to. No need to buy another optic ever, unless you want to keep up with the current trend at the time.

as mentioned a really good scope will last forever, no upgrades needed.

Understood. Here is my thinking... I'm not talking about chunking $1000-1500 on a scope that won't be what I want/need a year or two down the line. I'm talking about $300 bucks that will be serviceable for my use temporarily and be less painful to move aside when I am in a position (see above) to swing the high end optic that I would love.
No one has mentioned Bergara, but I have been looking at either the HMR or BMP, as well as having my eye on the new HMR PRO that is releasing soon.

In your 2000$ budget are you also considering shooting bags, kestrel, bipod, and range finder?

Also, remember you'll need some quality base/rings(CTR has a zero MOA base) and you can eat up a decent amount of your budget.

I had not considered these much when thinking about the budget. But obviously that was an error in my thinking.
As far as the rings go, a lot of you guys highlighted the importance and that makes sense.
I had considered the bipod, rail, etc... basically the items that are attached the gun, but not the peripheral equipment like the range finder or spotting scope or bags. What's convenience and what's essential?

Lots of people upgrade to the latest and greatest and sell their "old" custom rifles and high end optics for steep discounts.

To put it simply, my lack of experience and knowledge scares me to pull the trigger on a used setup. I don't feel confident doing quality control on a rifle/scope in person, let alone pulling the trigger for an online purchase.

SWFA fixed 10x or 12x is an excellent choice for casual shooters. 12x will get you to 1000x with ease. It is reliable and tough as a red brick.
SWFA 3-15x42 is $699 and as tough as they come.
Zero stops save time in matches but are not necessary.
Burris XTR II
Ruger precision Rifle was just under $1k shipped from Grabagun.com
Rings are important, figure $150-200 for a nice matched set.
Use the rest of your money on ammunition, Sportsman’s warehouse had bulk 140g 6.5 creedmoor for 200rds $139.
Don’t get caught up in glass quality, buy a tough scope that tracks. You are not a cinematographer or birdwatcher. Remember it is a weapons sight, and glass is always subjective. You need TRACKING FIRST. Glass quality is last.

EDIT: You nailed it on the casual part. I'm looking to get in casual, and slowly work my way up to competitions... not jump right in to them. As I said, I am very competitive, but I can be competitive with myself as I learn. I am 90% sure this is something that I'm going to stick with and do for a long time. I may not be looking to compete at any sort of high level for a couple three years.

Thanks for the breakdown. Your advice is right in line with what I had in mind, but as I stated above I have been really eyeing the Bergara rifles.
Glass quality is last? Even when trying to pinpoint at long range?

I would highly recommend taking your time and doing your research before making any purchase.

I have been researching this for months and have went up and down many roads. I'm not looking to purchase until summer timeframe, so still taking it slow.


----------
To all - Thanks again for all the advice.
-Joe

 

[DrainTheSwamp]

Bergara HMR and slap an athlon Argos on it until you decide to move a few steps in the optics world.

I shoot by myself a lot at my private range so kestrel, bags, and range finder were all essential to me. Gonna have to decide if you can get away with borrowing that stuff to practice with. Practice (even dry fire positional practice under time constraints) will also make you more competitive

 

[Dthomas3523]

I actually forgot about Bergara. Its a 700 pattern, so plenty of aftermarket support. If you've had the chance to feel one and like the way it feels, go for it. If not, I'd look at other options since it wouldn't make sense to drop 1k on it, then pull it out the stock when you can spend 400-800 on a Howa barreled action or a Tikka CTR. If you're going to replace the stock with another stock or chassis, better considerably less money on the Howa, or get what many consider a better action(tikka) than the Bergara for a couple hundred less.

I totally understand having to justify purchases. Since your goal is to go more budget friendly on the scope now and upgrade later(easier to ease the wife into that large of a total sum over time I'm sure), I'd suggest the Vortex Viper PST II if you can find a good deal on one or if you qualify for a military/LE discount. It will serve you well for a mid/low budget scope, and it will have a decent resale value. It won't be $300, but in the long run, better value. Also Vortex's warranty means you could literally smash it on a rock and get a new one. This is a great value, especially when you are newer and may not be used to running your setup hard and the damage that can be caused running around with it.

As far as the bare minimum for setup, you'll need rifle(with stock or chassis you like), scope, base/rings, bipod....rear bag, front bag, backpack(that can function as a front rest support, very important), and something like a Kestrel that will read wind, temp......etc. You'll want a rangefinder as well, but you can always hold off on that a little while until you start competing. Its not a bad idea to not have one and force yourself to learn how to mil targets. You'll need a data book and ballistic software, but that's not a major expense.

Also.....very important. Make sure when you are making your optic choice(especially when/if you decide to make a big budget purchase) that you base a huge amount of it on reticle choice. You're going to be spending a ton of time staring at it. You need something that isn't going to irritate you looking at it all the time.

Make a list of optics brands/models you like the features of, then spend a ton of time looking at their reticle choices. Either a single reticle or at least a reticle style will jump out at you. If you find you're talking yourself into a reticle based on other options......you're probably wrong. Let the reticle/s choose you and then pick out which features you prefer. I ended up ordering a Vortex AMG. I like the floating dot, and I will likely take it hunting from time to time, so weight was my second determining factor.....followed by the warranty.

 

[Slyexx]

Practice (even dry fire positional practice under time constraints) will also make you more competitive

Where can I find more info on what competitions consist of so I can better tailor my personal practice sessions to prepare myself?

If this helps, my interests are obviously is ranges out to 1000+ and looking at short action most likely 6.5 creedmoor. I enjoy the tactical aspect of it and don't necessarily want a 20lb rifle on a sled that can't move. I want to have to determine the ranges myself and make more adjustments not less. Put simply, I want more real world shooting competition with more unknowns which I equate to more difficulty.

If that helps someone point me toward a competition class/series that fits that. I see F-class, FTR, PRS, etc. etc. but the googling I've done hasn't done that great at clarifying what each consists of.

 

[DrainTheSwamp]

Check out National Rifle league, precision rifle series, boarder wars rifle series, Missouri steel tactical, Kansas precision rifle club.

I’m sure there’s more someone else please chime in but given what you just said those will be up your alley.

Also just search around on YouTube of a few precision rifle matches in action.

On the prs website just click on a few match details and they should have the coarse of fire posted. That will give you a good idea of what to expect .

 

[D. Hargrove]

Fundamentals, fundamentals, dry fire....repeat.

 

[DrainTheSwamp]

Here’s a coarse of fire from a mini match aimed at getting new shooters into the sport, stage times were very forgiving

Stage 1 long bomber
Engage 4 targets, must take 2 shots at each, first round hit is 2 pts second round is 1 pt. 8 rounds 3 min 12 pts max
T1 445 T2 525 T3 595 T4 888

Stage 2 Confirmation
Engage the small target to the far left at 350 each hit is 1 pt, bank your pts by hitting the 10 inch plate at 530. 10 rounds 3 min 9 pts max

Stage 3 Test your limit
Engage the 5 targets at 350 left to right. Must hit to move on. If you miss you start back over on the first plate. 1 pt for the 1st 2 for the second and so on. 10 rounds 2 min 15 pts max

Stage 4 Know your limit
Engage the 5 targets left to right at 350, a miss results in the ending of the stage and a loss of any pts, so stop shooting when you feel you can't hit the next target 5 rounds 2 min 15 pts max

Stage 5 Tunnel
Engage near to far, rifle, bag, or bipod must be resting on top of the tunnel. 2 shots at each, first round hit is 2 points and you don't have to take a second shot if the first is an impact, Second round hit is 1 pt. Then transition and do the same from inside the tunnel.
8 rounds 2:30 min 8 pts max
T1 273 T2 380 T3 490 T4 587

Stage 6 Barricades
Start at either side and engage the large target at 350. Rifle, bag or bipod must be in contact with the barricade. Must hit to move on, first round hit is 2 pts
6 rounds 2:30 min 6 pts max

Stage 7 Tires
Start on dominate (dominate eye and arm) side of tires, rifle or scope must be in contact with tires, engage the large plate at 350, first round hit is 2 pts second round hit is 1 pt only 2 shots allowed per position. Next position is from the top of the tires and third position is weak side(weak eye and arm)
6 rounds 2 min 6 pts max

 

[Terry H]

Where can I find more info on what competitions consist of so I can better tailor my personal practice sessions to prepare myself?

If this helps, my interests are obviously is ranges out to 1000+ and looking at short action most likely 6.5 creedmoor. I enjoy the tactical aspect of it and don't necessarily want a 20lb rifle on a sled that can't move. I want to have to determine the ranges myself and make more adjustments not less. Put simply, I want more real world shooting competition with more unknowns which I equate to more difficulty.

If that helps someone point me toward a competition class/series that fits that. I see F-class, FTR, PRS, etc. etc. but the googling I've done hasn't done that great at clarifying what each consists of.

I shoot NRA F Class in F-T/R. All F class matches are shot prone at known distances. Mid range matches are from 300-600 yards. Long range up to 1000. F-T/R is restricted to .223 and .308. Bipods and rear bags. F Open has unlimited calibers and can shoot off front rests. I very much enjoy F-T/R. From your post I would guess that you would be looking more at PRS style matches. In PRS there are different shooting scenarios and distances. Lots of moving around and shooting from different positions. Much more tactical that F Class. If you do Facebook, there are a few really good F Class groups there with great shooters that are more than willing to help. Also would suggest going to a match or matches of the assorted styles so you can see how they are first hand.

With that being said, I use a Sightron SIII 10-50x60 on my .308. Love the scope. I see them pretty often in forum classifieds for $800ish. They are $1000 new. I also have a Vortex 10-60x52 Golden Eagle on my 6.5 RPR. Also a great piece of glass for a little more. I paid $1199.00 for mine from my LGS who is a Vortex dealer. So that's a couple of scopes that would not totally blow your budget but will work very well out to 1000. I see both on many rifles on the firing line every F Class match. Both are better suited to F Class than PRS though.

My F class .308...

 

[Evintos]

Bergara would be a good choice for an affordable off the shelf 700 style action. It doesn't have a long track record but as far as I know there aren't many problems with them. HMR Pro is a little pricey for what you get and the BMP aluminum chassis looks stronger and stiffer than the chassis/stock that comes with the HMR Pro (which looks like a different color of their regular HMR).

I'd stick with the regular HMR though out of the 3 and upgrade to a new chassis when the budget allows.

I will revise my suggestion to either a used optic with an iron clad warranty (Vortex is renowned for this; Bushnell is supposed to have a good warranty depending on what tier optic, and possibly the new Nikon FX1000 6-24 which is supposed to have a similar warranty to Vortex) or a new optic in the 700-1000 price range.

Bergara HMR - $850 (on sale)

Used optic with great warranty - $1000 (basically mid to mid-upper tier optic that would normally retail mid-1000 to low 2000 - my choice would be the Vortex Razor HD gen 1 for warranty concerns with used optics)

or new optic in the 1k range (Vortex PST Gen II, or a Bushnell LRTS with the 30% off rebate, Burris XTR II, Nikon FX1000 6-24)

Rings - $150 which there are a lot of options (the cheapest rings I'm hesitant to recommend would be XLR Industry rings at $69.99 and simply because I'm pretty sure they're rebranded UTG Pro rings)

The big problem with skimping on optics is mechanical issues and optical clarity. The big problem with optical clarity is eye fatigue/strain and mental fatigue. Imagine wearing corrective lens with the wrong prescription. Of course mechanical issues with optics means it just won't work. Razor Gen 1, PST Gen 2, Burris XTR II, Bushnell LRTS - these choices would be better than the SWFA 10x (in my opinion)
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Peripherals are largely dependent on what's available in your area in terms of range.

If you're shooting at a known distance range - range finders are not neccessary. If you're shooting in an area with cell signal or wifi, you can use your GPS to get a rough idea of the distance from you to target.

Bipods - if you have an old backpack you can use it as a make shift rest, no need for a bipod.
Bags - rice + an old sock. If you're good at sewing, old t-shirts + airsoft bb's can make a larger bag.
Spotting scope - no need if the optic on your rifle is good.

Kestrel - very handy, but if you don't mind guessing wind and wasting a few rounds, then save for future purchase.

-------------------------
Precision rifle is probably one of the most expensive categories of shooting and I see it on this forum and other forums time and time again where new guys will always want to skimp on the optics in favor of buying the more expensive firearm and then quickly become disappointed with the whole sport. Don't be that guy.

 

[SauerJ67]

An overwhelming response from the community here. I appreciate every bit of your guys effort. Here's some follow ups:
----------




Awesome. Sounds like just what I needed for the car rides.





I wanted to clarify the budget piece as it might help you guys better direct me down this path:


I included that last quote in here for a reason. My wife is a big part of what's keeping this budget down. Not the bitch and or soon to be Ex part, but as many I'm sure can understand, I have to justify a multi thousand dollar purchase.


Example of where I’m at: "Hey, you remember me saying I want to shoot targets really far? Well anyways, I just spent $5000 on what I need to be competitive." It just won't work. I need to find a price where I can get in, have fun, and be relevant. Once my idea turns into commitment, I will have no problem swinging a couple grand just on a scope a year or so from now.


So to sum it up. $2000 is pushing my limit for not pissing my wife off to insanity but hopefully getting something that will suit my application. Luckily I'm in a position where I can afford more, but not so easy to brief to the wife at my current status of a newbie entering into long range shooting.
Suffice it to say, it's not about saving money. I could save for 10 years, but still got to convince the wife to allow me to release the funds.





Understood. Here is my thinking... I'm not talking about chunking $1000-1500 on a scope that won't be what I want/need a year or two down the line. I'm talking about $300 bucks that will be serviceable for my use temporarily and be less painful to move aside when I am in a position (see above) to swing the high end optic that I would love.
No one has mentioned Bergara, but I have been looking at either the HMR or BMP, as well as having my eye on the new HMR PRO that is releasing soon.





I had not considered these much when thinking about the budget. But obviously that was an error in my thinking.
As far as the rings go, a lot of you guys highlighted the importance and that makes sense.
I had considered the bipod, rail, etc... basically the items that are attached the gun, but not the peripheral equipment like the range finder or spotting scope or bags. What's convenience and what's essential?






To put it simply, my lack of experience and knowledge scares me to pull the trigger on a used setup. I don't feel confident doing quality control on a rifle/scope in person, let alone pulling the trigger for an online purchase.





EDIT: You nailed it on the casual part. I'm looking to get in casual, and slowly work my way up to competitions... not jump right in to them. As I said, I am very competitive, but I can be competitive with myself as I learn. I am 90% sure this is something that I'm going to stick with and do for a long time. I may not be looking to compete at any sort of high level for a couple three years.

Thanks for the breakdown. Your advice is right in line with what I had in mind, but as I stated above I have been really eyeing the Bergara rifles.
Glass quality is last? Even when trying to pinpoint at long range?




I have been researching this for months and have went up and down many roads. I'm not looking to purchase until summer timeframe, so still taking it slow.


----------
To all - Thanks again for all the advice.
-Joei

I totally get what you are saying......your situation sounds way better than mine was. Atleast it sounds like she Will let you follow your dreams. Good luck man

 

[Bender]

An overwhelming response from the community here. I appreciate every bit of your guys effort. Here's some follow ups:
----------




Awesome. Sounds like just what I needed for the car rides.





I wanted to clarify the budget piece as it might help you guys better direct me down this path:


I included that last quote in here for a reason. My wife is a big part of what's keeping this budget down. Not the bitch and or soon to be Ex part, but as many I'm sure can understand, I have to justify a multi thousand dollar purchase.


Example of where I’m at: "Hey, you remember me saying I want to shoot targets really far? Well anyways, I just spent $5000 on what I need to be competitive." It just won't work. I need to find a price where I can get in, have fun, and be relevant. Once my idea turns into commitment, I will have no problem swinging a couple grand just on a scope a year or so from now.


So to sum it up. $2000 is pushing my limit for not pissing my wife off to insanity but hopefully getting something that will suit my application. Luckily I'm in a position where I can afford more, but not so easy to brief to the wife at my current status of a newbie entering into long range shooting.
Suffice it to say, it's not about saving money. I could save for 10 years, but still got to convince the wife to allow me to release the funds.





Understood. Here is my thinking... I'm not talking about chunking $1000-1500 on a scope that won't be what I want/need a year or two down the line. I'm talking about $300 bucks that will be serviceable for my use temporarily and be less painful to move aside when I am in a position (see above) to swing the high end optic that I would love.
No one has mentioned Bergara, but I have been looking at either the HMR or BMP, as well as having my eye on the new HMR PRO that is releasing soon.





I had not considered these much when thinking about the budget. But obviously that was an error in my thinking.
As far as the rings go, a lot of you guys highlighted the importance and that makes sense.
I had considered the bipod, rail, etc... basically the items that are attached the gun, but not the peripheral equipment like the range finder or spotting scope or bags. What's convenience and what's essential?






To put it simply, my lack of experience and knowledge scares me to pull the trigger on a used setup. I don't feel confident doing quality control on a rifle/scope in person, let alone pulling the trigger for an online purchase.





EDIT: You nailed it on the casual part. I'm looking to get in casual, and slowly work my way up to competitions... not jump right in to them. As I said, I am very competitive, but I can be competitive with myself as I learn. I am 90% sure this is something that I'm going to stick with and do for a long time. I may not be looking to compete at any sort of high level for a couple three years.

Thanks for the breakdown. Your advice is right in line with what I had in mind, but as I stated above I have been really eyeing the Bergara rifles.
Glass quality is last? Even when trying to pinpoint at long range?




I have been researching this for months and have went up and down many roads. I'm not looking to purchase until summer timeframe, so still taking it slow.


----------
To all - Thanks again for all the advice.
-Joe

Yes, glass is last. There was a guy who shot a new record in Nevada at an ELR match and he had a SWFA, non HD with a 7stw, it might have even been a fixed power, I think it was 2k yrd shot? I’ll look for the details.... @Lowlight has the same opinion of glass quality, yes it’s nice, but it’s lower on the list, I don’t recall him ever really getting into IQ in any of his scope reviews.

 

[Bender]

The glass in the SWFA fixed 10x or 12x is really good by the way.... I’m not saying it’s the best, but it’s the best $300 scope that is just as robust as an S&B and tracks like NF.

Will it be your last scope? Hell no. But you will always want one for other guns or as a back up. Use a SWFA to get shooting quicker and decide what features you want in a full blown FFP scope. I will always have my fixed 10x. ...... to be honest, I shoot it more often just because it’s on my .223 Bolt gun. Cheaper and lighter than the 6.5.

Edit: SWFA has the same no bs warranty as Vortex. Run it over with your truck? Send it in.

 

[Slyexx]

Check out National Rifle league, precision rifle series, boarder wars rifle series, Missouri steel tactical, Kansas precision rifle club.

I’m sure there’s more someone else please chime in but given what you just said those will be up your alley.

Also just search around on YouTube of a few precision rifle matches in action.

On the prs website just click on a few match details and they should have the coarse of fire posted. That will give you a good idea of what to expect .

I shoot NRA F Class in F-T/R. All F class matches are shot prone at known distances. Mid range matches are from 300-600 yards. Long range up to 1000. F-T/R is restricted to .223 and .308. Bipods and rear bags. F Open has unlimited calibers and can shoot off front rests. I very much enjoy F-T/R. From your post I would guess that you would be looking more at PRS style matches....

What I hadn't mentioned yet is that I'm currently stationed in Alaska. There doesn't seem to be much of any series, leagues, or even one of's going on here for long range rifles. If anyone knows about a long range scene in Alaska please let me know.

If not, it won't be too big of a deal. There is at least one range I know of that I can shoot out to 1,000 within a couple hour drive. Local range that I can access anytime any day I can get out to 300 and a more restricted schedule 600 at another place. That will give me plenty of practice and refining before I get to the next place that will more likely have those sort of competitions in a reasonable driving range.

 

[Hondo64d]

Although I've never shot a target past 3 or 400 yards, long range shooting is something that has always been of great interest to me, especially over the past 5 or so years. I am finally at a point in my life where I want to / can invest and try my hand at it. I was just recently turned onto Sniper's Hide from a fellow I met at the range last week. If you experienced folks here could lend an ear and help me choose my initial setup that would be awesome. I'll try to keep it on the scope topic, since that is what this particular forum is about.

Budget is flexible, but could vary depending on how much I spend on my rifle. Total combined I'm looking at around $2000 rifle/optic, but could stretch a little higher if convinced it makes sense for a beginner like myself.

My application would be target shooting out to 1000 yards. Maybe 1000+? Eventually I would like to enter local long range competitions (but to be honest I don't really know about what's out there or what the rules are, ie restrictions/distances). Basically, recreational shooting with the self awareness that I know how competitive I am and may want to get involved in competitions and see where that takes me.

Haven't decided on a rifle quite yet either, but zeroing in on 6.5 creedmoor if that makes a difference.

A few specific questions:

- I've been looking hard at the SWFA SS fixed 10x as a serviceable option to open up my budget up to accommodate a higher end rifle. Any opinions on that?

- To go along with above... Would a fixed 10x give me the power I need to be accurate at 1000 yards?

- When it comes to variable, what power range should I be looking at ( 5-25 ish ? ), and how much power is overkill or detrimental to quality (at my budget)?

- MRAD vs MOA and reticle choice. What should I be looking at, or looking to avoid?


I understand a lot of this is personal preference, but I like to seek as much good advice as I can get. Again, these questions are coming from a newbie, if that affects recommendations. I have spend dozens and dozens of hours reading and researching what I believe to be everything long range shooting over the past months, but any links or references to good articles or videos would be just as appreciated.

Thanks a lot
-Joe

The thing to remember in optics selection is mechanical reliability, ie zero retention, accurate tracking and return to zero are your number one priorities. If a scope doesn’t have those things, great glass and convenience features are worthless.

Even though that is the case, there is still an economical choice that has the mechanical reliability down pat; the SWFA Super Sniper. The glass is not Schmidt and bender but it is still pretty darn good. Zero stop shims can be had cheaply. Do that and you’re set. My recommendation is the 10x with the mil-quad reticle. You can shoot to 1k with it and as you get above 10x, the eye box starts becoming more critical. The 16x I had was extremely critical and glare as the sun got low on the horizon was pretty bad. So, stay with the 10x. It is sufficient.

Put a good base and good rings on your rifle and make sure they are fastened securely. The SWFA rings are not elegant, but they are rugged, they work and are economical.

As far as a rifle, at your budget, I’d go with the Tikka CTR stainless in 6.5 Creedmoor. My brother has one and he sent me pictures of dime sized five shot groups at 100with factory ammo. I’d go with the 24” barrel. You almost never read of a poor shooting CTR. Save the rest of your budget for a good bipod, rear bag and ammo.

John

 

[Billinthedesert]

Just want to thank all who have contributed to this thread. I have learned a lot -- especially about glass. I shot out to 600 many years ago with an early Savage 12 BVSS in .223, with SMK69s and a basic Sightron scope, and had a ball. Looking hard at a RPR in 6mm or 6.5 creed, and SWFA, Nikon Black, Leupold AR Mark 6 -- and that crazy good deal on the Bushnell FFP hat is apparently out of stock for glass.

 

[predator308]

Great Advises here might I add 6.5CM is way to go for a budget rifle lots of factory ammo and load info. that said SWFA fixed 10x or 12x mounted on a CTR would do justice at 1000 and over.

 

[Bender]

The reason you can only get SWFA from them, is because they cut out all middleman in pricing. If this scope was sold through dealerships you would have to add 60% or more to the price to help offset dealer networking and dealerships making their cut. It punches way above $300.