New vs. Once fired brass questions

[Trophy Case]

I just started reloading and shot my first ladder test last weekend. I used some Winchester once fired brass from my scope zeroing outing. I followed the brass prep and reloading information in this forum exclusively and came out with some very informative results after shooting at 540 yards. Here's my question....since the once fired Winchester brass was already fireformed to my 300wsm chamber I just bumped the shoulder back 2 thou when reloading, but my new unfired Norma brass is obviously shorter from shoulder to base, is this going to make a difference on the range until it's fireformed to my chamber? Will it effect the second ladder test if I use the new Norma brass rather than loading up the used Winchester brass for the 3rd time? Thanks in advance.

 

[bcrich]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

From shooting steel targets out to 500 meters I haven't noticed any difference between virgin and 1 fired brass in my AR308, if you shoot benchrest then maybe but for tactical I don't think it makes enough of a difference.

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

yes it likely will make a difference. Norma brass should have a slightly different internal case capacity when compared with the Winchester, even after both are fire formed to your chamber.

You should test it (meaning do a water capacity test with fired, but clean brass) so that you can tell the difference, just in case you need to go to the range and use mixed brass.

Jeffvn

 

[turbo54]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

I don't think the different case headspacing is going to make a hill-of-beans worth of difference, but I DO think it is unwise to directly compare ladder tests run in two completely different headstamp'ed brass types.

 

[WhiskeyWebber]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

I haven't measured it directly but I *feel* like I get more dead center hits with twice+ fired brass than on virgin brass.

 

[targaflorio]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

Accuracy comes from lots of little things adding up. Any variable you can control, you should control. Bullet, powder, primer, brass. I suggest you compare shots coming out of brass cases that are as identical as time, effort, money allow.

 

[jrob300]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

It depends on a lot of factors. I've heard of guys getting the best accuracy from their rifles when fireforming 280 to 280 AI.

I do know that Winchester has been making their brass smaller and smaller and have documented that virgin brass is not as accurate as brass fired once to expand to my chamber.

John

 

[Trophy Case]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

Thanks for all the imput, keeping everything consistent as possible is the name of the game. I'll reload the once fired Winchester brass until my load development is done, then move to the Norma. I guess eventually I'll answer my own question when the switch is made.

 

[red hawk]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

Fire form does better because it is formed to your chamber.I shoot better groups with fire formed.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

If you do your homework on the ladder there won't be much difference between fired and new. I use an 06 and there is a slight difference between Lapua and Lake city, both once fired. To keep my LC in line with the Lapua, I drop back .5gr on the LC. They both then turn out identical numbers. Between headstamps I would say it could be close, as in my case, or way off...luck of the draw.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

I wouldn't waste much time with the Win brass and a ladder test, if your intent is to switch to Norma and fireform that stuff, with another ladder test. What kind of gun are you using? And, why bump the shoulder 2 thou? BB

 

[Trophy Case]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

Well BB, this is why I ask these questions. My concern was switching to unfired Norma brass that has not been fired yet. The resounding response seems to be leaning toward the Win brass that has been previously fired in my gun to get the best results in the ladder test. I bumped back the shoulder 2 thou in the fired brass because that was what was recommended in Tresmons posts here. What is your opinion? Reloading is new to me and I'm just trying to develop what my gun likes based on the experience of those here on the hide. My gun is a GAP 300wsm, Templar action, AI 2.0 stock, Bartlein #7 contour barrel, 11.25 twist and I'm shooting Berger 185 VLD's.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

Whatever happened to people simply buying enough of one kind of brass, one lot number, to last them a good long while and ensure at least a decent head start on brass uniformity.

Why do people spend a damn fortune on a custom built rifle, then force themselves to compromise somehow on what they run through it, and inevitably wonder out loud why their shit might not work out.

WTF....over.

 

[wIg SpLiTtEr]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

Fire formed

 

[Trophy Case]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whatever happened to people simply buying enough of one kind of brass, one lot number, to last them a good long while and ensure at least a decent head start on brass uniformity.

Why do people spend a damn fortune on a custom built rifle, then force themselves to compromise somehow on what they run through it, and inevitably wonder out loud why their shit might not work out.

WTF....over. </div></div>


Thanks to everyone who responded to my question in a POSITIVE way. I simply asked what I thought to be reasonable question to those who have experienced my situation.

I'm still learning here so sorry to hurt your feelers Tripwire......over

 

[jrob300]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whatever happened to people simply buying enough of one kind of brass, one lot number, to last them a good long while and ensure at least a decent head start on brass uniformity.

Why do people spend a damn fortune on a custom built rifle, then force themselves to compromise somehow on what they run through it, and inevitably wonder out loud why their shit might not work out.

WTF....over. </div></div>

You're being mean.

He's obviously a little rough around the edges. At least he warned you in his sig.

But he makes a good point. Multiple headstamps can be a nightmare and one of the problems you may run into now... even if you buy more brass it will be from a different lot and could potentially be as bad as mixed mfgs. I ran into this with 300WM brass with both Nosler and Win. Old Win. 300WM brass was almost 20g different in weight than new.

I realize that it's hard to commit when you're not sure what will work best, but in my experience, brass mfg. probably has the least impact on accuracy in the equation. Life? Yes. Accuracy? Very little. Buy a bunch of whatever you like, prep it well, take good care of it and it should serve you well. I just sold all of my Lapua .260 brass for this very reason. I did not see a significant accuracy difference between Win. and Lapua... at least not enough to justify the price difference.

John

 

[doc76251]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

THIS ^^^^^^^^^

Buy 500 of what ever makes you happy and roll them.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[eagleskier]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

Not to hijack the thread but my question is where the heck do you find 300 WSM Norma brass these days? I have not been able to find it in stock for months.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

Tripwire=mean, & probably insensitive?

Trophy Case=needs positive reinforcement

Suggestion: Forget your ladder tests with the Win brass.

Also, do ladder test while fireforming Norma brass, (should be) end of problem.
BB

 

[Tripwire]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

I may be mean and insensitve but I was taught long ago that if I want a lot of consistancy the trick is to aquire a consistant lot.....quantities are 100% subjective to need/want.

The last time I looked I was still doing just that.

Do note I'm not the one here asking the self answering questions......

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I may be mean and insensitve but I was taught long ago that if I want a lot of consistancy the trick is to aquire a consistant lot.....quantities are 100% subjective to need/want.

The last time I looked I was still doing just that.

Do note I'm not the one here asking the self answering questions...... </div></div>

Yeah but you are sure as hell entertaining!


OP don't get a sandy vagina man its nothing personal. Some of us here are crusty old guys that have been to buzzard fuckins, billygoat rodeos and seen everything but the wind. As such we tend to be rather "hasty" folk when posed such questions. Hey if you don't know you don't know. Trip told you the truth and sometimes the truth hurts....especially when it comes from Trip(LMFAO).

I know what is right and am guilty of going against that at times but I know there is a price to pay. Most of the time I get good enough when I go against the grain, but I have a point of reference and don't have outsized expectations.
If it absolutely, positively must be exact then make a choice and settle.
I ran my tests on both brass together because I have some Lapua and shit tons of LC. The Lapua is my Sunday brass and the LC is my everyday brass...ie I know what it does and I know what to expect.

As I said you may get lucky and you may not. You need at least one large lot of brass to settle on and stick with it. I expect to get 25 loadings out of my 100 Lapua cases, which is fine for most any match I will shoot at my age. I would like to have had more from that lot but that is all there was available at the time.

I am all for premium brass but if you think that Norma brass is some kind of magic voodoo trick it ain't, its just brass. I have used Winchestter brass for many years and come to prefer it for many cartridges...especially my wildcats.

 

[Queequeg]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

I have at least 3500-4000 cases in lots of;

200 Lapua
1000 Winchester
600 F.C
500 Hornady
300 BHA
and lesser quantities of R.P., PMC, LC, and other brands.

I keep them in the lots they came in if they were bought as new ammo or new unfired brass. Otherwise, in the case of the once fired brass I have either bought or scrounged, I uniform them as best I can and anneal them after three or four cycles.

It works well for me as I always have a great selection of fully prepped brass ready to go while other lots are in the clean, re-size, prep process.

I load the Lapua, FC and LC cases a little lighter than the Win., Hornady, R.P., BHA cases but beyond that I focus more on the quality of my case prep and the precision of loads I make.

I'm not a bench rest shooter, don't own a chronograph and don't have an infinite amount of time to spend worrying about stuff I can't verify as significant to my situation.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

One other tid bit of maybe or maybe not useful info is that if staying within one <span style="font-style: italic">brand</span> of brass, ie headstamp, lot number really is a non issue if the load is worked up properly with OCW protocol.

We're dealing with a rapid internal combustion taking place that creates an amount of pressure/force to drive a bullet down a barrel, and then to some point down range. The amount of space this combustion has to burn in dictates the behavior of the force that drives on the bullet. One limiting factor of this space is obviously the internal capacity of the brass. When this internal capacity is close from round to round then we get a more a consistant burn and more consistant behavior of the driving force, and a more consistant impact point down range. This is why some of us say to not mix headstamps as the internal case capacities can and do vary between makers.....most times enough to change the load enough to get very different results. Sometimes dangereously so if you are not paying attention to details.

When dealing with a brass from the same maker, finding the center of a node with the OCW principles give you a range above and below that center, of consectutive powder weights, usually a grains worth or so total, sometimes more, that all offer the same behavior down range. This range of powder weights translates into a range of different pressure levels that all do the same thing. This range of pressure levels that are incorporated into the load by default are usually enough to override any miniscule difference in case capacity within the same headstamp.

If you understand OCW then you understand "accuracy" is not necessarily a function of exact speed, but rather a function of timing the exit of the bullet from the muzzle of the barrel at the most opportune time, by addressing issues with barrel harmonics. For this reason I gave up worrying about maintaining the exact lot number for the whole inventory of my brass, and gave up weight sorting my brass as a waste of time. I do not though, as a matter of religion, mix headstamps.

Was any of that mean?

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

I don't know that it was mean, per se? When you earn a certain reputation, (as you have) almost any direct statement of fact could be interpreted as mean; as in mean spirited. BB

 

[MMAJunkie]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

Good discussions here and I never gave it much thought before now but I will from now on. Thanks everyone this is a great place to learn

 

[Wolfish365]

Re: New vs. Once fired brass questions

Thanks Tripwire, that post of yours was very informative, and explained some things better than some published works I've read on the matter. It's very gratifying to know there are knowledgeable folks out there that, through their openness on this forum, make my role in teaching my kids these things easier when I can quote things like that. "Teach them young, teach them right, and they won't have to learn from doing things wrong"