Newbie trying to find a good load and need some help.

[champ198]

New to the hide and hoping to get some help and instruction and ideas.
I am trying to find an accurate hunting load for my 6.5 CM using 143ELD-X bullets, Hornady Brass, Win LRP, and H4350

I have watched a ton of load development videos and read a bunch of articles on it and am still having some issues finding a constant load.

I did a 10 shot ladder load with a COAL of 2.800.
Velocities from my Garmin Crono were below with grain weights

1-39.7-2605
2-39.9-2603
3-40.1-2623
4-40.3-2645
5-50.5-2647
6-40.7-2664
7-40.9-2678
8-41.1-2687
9-41.3-2687
10-41.5-2716

So I picked the higher node as the velocities were identical on the 41.1 & 41.3 charges.
I loaded 5 of each for 41.1, 41.2 & 41.3 and ran them through the crono again.

This was the data i got.

the 41.1 load had about a 1.75" group for 5
the 41.2 load had a large vertical string of about 4"
and the 41.3 load group had about a 1.5"

My thought was to adjust my seating depth on the bullets for another 41.3 grouping and see what it gets me as it was the "more accurate" grouping out of the 3 and I might have pulled a round when it was shot.

Was hoping that some of you all with a ton more experience than me might be able to help.

I have seen some other types of Load Dev on other sites that I am also experimenting with, but I am still very skeptical of those type of development platforms.

Im not shooting benchrest or anything, but would prefer to have an accurate load.
This particular rifle will also shoot a 3/4" group with Factory Hornady Precision Hunter 143Eld-X so I know the rifle is capable of better than what I have got with reloads so far.
So what would some opinions that you all could give or some suggestions.

 

[Doom]

So your goal is what? Are you interest in good chronograph data or an accurate load?

 

[champ198]

I want an accurate load.
I was just using the Chrono data as was listed in all the Satterlee method articles and videos I Have watched.
Again, I am still new with this and the Load Dev is always what I have struggled with. So I want to learn and find the best way to find an accurate load.

 

[wvfarrier]

In my experience, that fastest load is not normally the most accurate. I am usuaully somewhere around 75% max when I find a good accuracy/velocity node.

 

[champ198]

SO based off of my info above would you do the same 5 shot groups for 40.3,40.4 & 40.5? And then see the results?

 

[spife7980]

I’d shoot it on paper and again and see what actually groups best.
I’ve had better luck getting good groups in the lower end of the powder charge spectrum

 

[champ198]

I’d shoot it on paper and again and see what actually groups best.
I’ve had better luck getting good groups in the lower end of the powder charge spectrum

I did shoot the 41.1, 41.2 & 41.3 groups on paper in 5 shot groups. Just didn't take the pictures of the targets yet.
None of the 3 really grouped well at all.
The 41.1 Group was about 1.75"
The 41.2 group was about 4" and in a large vertical string
the 41.3 group was about 1.5" group

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

How far do you need to shoot? I.e. how fast do they need to start in order to reach your max range with enough velocity for expansion/impact? Load ten to that speed and check that SD and group size is acceptable for whatever vital zone size you're shooting.

If it is, cool, start fine tuning if you feel like it or just run it. If it's not, I'd try another powder.

 

[champ198]

How far do you need to shoot? I.e. how fast do they need to start in order to reach your max range with enough velocity for expansion/impact? Load ten to that speed and check that SD and group size is acceptable for whatever vital zone size you're shooting.

If it is, cool, start fine tuning if you feel like it or just run it. If it's not, I'd try another powder.

This is a hunting rifle so max distance might be 300 but would like to do some fun shooting at 500.

 

[ShtrRdy]

What distance are you testing at?
Are you seating the bullet the same length as the factory Hornady ammo?
Can you shoot smaller groups with other rifles?

 

[champ198]

What distance are you testing at?
Are you seating the bullet the same length as the factory Hornady ammo?
Can you shoot smaller groups with other rifles?

Testing was done at 100 yards.
Length was done at 2.800 COAL.
I have not checked CBTO yet.
That was on the list to check tonight as I have some factory rounds from Hornady.
And with the factory Precision hunter ammo with the 143 Eld-X I have shot 3/4" groups with this rifle multiple times.

 

[straightshooter1]

New to the hide and hoping to get some help and instruction and ideas.
I am trying to find an accurate hunting load for my 6.5 CM using 143ELD-X bullets, Hornady Brass, Win LRP, and H4350

I have watched a ton of load development videos and read a bunch of articles on it and am still having some issues finding a constant load.

I did a 10 shot ladder load with a COAL of 2.800.
Velocities from my Garmin Crono were below with grain weights

1-39.7-2605
2-39.9-2603
3-40.1-2623
4-40.3-2645
5-50.5-2647
6-40.7-2664
7-40.9-2678
8-41.1-2687
9-41.3-2687
10-41.5-2716

View attachment 8485353

So I picked the higher node as the velocities were identical on the 41.1 & 41.3 charges.
I loaded 5 of each for 41.1, 41.2 & 41.3 and ran them through the crono again.

This was the data i got.

View attachment 8485359

the 41.1 load had about a 1.75" group for 5
the 41.2 load had a large vertical string of about 4"
and the 41.3 load group had about a 1.5"

My thought was to adjust my seating depth on the bullets for another 41.3 grouping and see what it gets me as it was the "more accurate" grouping out of the 3 and I might have pulled a round when it was shot.

Was hoping that some of you all with a ton more experience than me might be able to help.

I have seen some other types of Load Dev on other sites that I am also experimenting with, but I am still very skeptical of those type of development platforms.

Im not shooting benchrest or anything, but would prefer to have an accurate load.
This particular rifle will also shoot a 3/4" group with Factory Hornady Precision Hunter 143Eld-X so I know the rifle is capable of better than what I have got with reloads so far.
So what would some opinions that you all could give or some suggestions.

No doubt in my mind, you should be getting much better than 3/4" groups with that powder behind those 143 ELD-X's.

That 10 shot ladder really doesn't tell you anything about where a good load is. You can shoot that same ladder more than once and each time you'll get a different looking ladder. It's what you get on target that really tells you what you need to know about the performance of your loads.

Looking at the Load 1 - 3, you're ES's look pretty high to me for just 5 shots each. It makes me suspect there's a lot of room for improvement in you loading and/or brass prep. You should be able to easily get you velocity ES's to around 20 or less.

Can you provide details about those things?

A couple of things I would look at first:

- Make sure you're scope is mounted correctly and all the associated screws are tightened properly (e.g. not over tightening).

- Hornady brass may not be providing the consistency you need for what you're after. Weight sorting can help with that.

- I'd look closely at is how consistent is your powder measuring (of course, having something to do with the particular scale you're using)?

- Try different primers. Like CCI's if you have any or can find some.

- Make sure your primers are consistently seated to touching the bottom of the primer pockets.

- You might want to change how far you're seating those bullets. Like, start longer than 2.800 (wouldn't hurt to start at mag length) and move incrementally shorter by .003" and see what you get on target.

 

[Doom]

The Satterlee method was seriously flawed, being based on only one shot per load and ignoring the random variations that occur. It is not repeatable. With 0.2 gr increments you expect about 10-12 fps variation in velocity. However, if you load with a standard deviation of 5 fps (very good) over a large number of shots there is a 5% chance that any one shot will fall outside the mean by 10fps. Even Scott abandoned this method pretty quickly.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Depending on the rifle sometimes changing powders or changing primers can make a difference. One more point, this being the hottest time of the year, might want to be doing testing again at the months and weather you will be hunting, temp insensitive powder or not.

Final thought, deer, elk, moose, pronghorn don’t really feel any difference between absolute max load and a load that is a 100fps slower, but your rifle sure will (feel the difference).

 

[champ198]

No doubt in my mind, you should be getting much better than 3/4" groups with that powder behind those 143 ELD-X's.

That 10 shot ladder really doesn't tell you anything about where a good load is. You can shoot that same ladder more than once and each time you'll get a different looking ladder. It's what you get on target that really tells you what you need to know about the performance of your loads.

Looking at the Load 1 - 3, you're ES's look pretty high to me for just 5 shots each. It makes me suspect there's a lot of room for improvement in you loading and/or brass prep. You should be able to easily get you velocity ES's to around 20 or less.

Can you provide details about those things?

A couple of things I would look at first:

- Make sure you're scope is mounted correctly and all the associated screws are tightened properly (e.g. not over tightening).

- Hornady brass may not be providing the consistency you need for what you're after. Weight sorting can help with that.

- I'd look closely at is how consistent is your powder measuring (of course, having something to do with the particular scale you're using)?

- Try different primers. Like CCI's if you have any or can find some.

- Make sure your primers are consistently seated to touching the bottom of the primer pockets.

- You might want to change how far you're seating those bullets. Like, start longer than 2.800 (wouldn't hurt to start at mag length) and move incrementally shorter by .003" and see what you get on target.

I am 100% confident in the scope being mounted well and all mounting screws are tight.
I can understand where the Brass could possibly be different from case to case. I assume that just weighing each case is what you are meaning by the sorting of the cases? Again still trying to learn.

For the power measure I trickle in after throwing and the Scale is a RCBS M500 Balance beam. I Have thought about getting one of the higher end scales that are out there like the one from Creedmoor Sports because of the possible inconsistency of the Balance Beam.

For Primers the Winchester is all i have on hand and they are a bit of a pain to find the LRP. One thing I have thought about doing is getting some more higher end brass like from Alpha that uses the SRP for the 6.5CM. But that's another topic.

I am planning to do some checking tonight on CBTO of what my loads are in relation to a factory round and also measure the rifle as well to see where all are at. Again, I just loaded these to the COAL that Hornady lists in their manual.

 

[champ198]

The Satterlee method was seriously flawed, being based on only one shot per load and ignoring the random variations that occur. It is not repeatable. With 0.2 gr increments you expect about 10-12 fps variation in velocity. However, if you load with a standard deviation of 5 fps (very good) over a large number of shots there is a 5% chance that any one shot will fall outside the mean by 10fps. Even Scott abandoned this method pretty quickly.

What Load Dev Method would you suggest or process that would work better.
I can understand what your saying as it might not be the best. I would prefer to find a load with the least amount of components used if possible just due to components being a bit harder for me to get ahold of now days.

 

[Taylorbok]

Load 5 every half grain from 39.5-41.5
.020" off the lands (or mag length what ever is shortest)
Shoot groups and see which groups the best. Done.

 

[champ198]

Load 5 every half grain from 39.5-41.5
.020" off the lands (or mag length what ever is shortest)
Shoot groups and see which groups the best. Done.

and if none group for $hit.
And when doing so and you have some that group good and some not say group 1-2 work but 3,4 & 5 are junk are you loading 5 more in .1 gr increments between group 1 & 2 to again find the best accuracy in that bunch of charge weights

 

[Doom]

There are several but if you are only concerned with hunting to 300yds put the chronograph away. If you are going to 500yds the first question would be what rifle and what barrel profile do you have. A shorter barrel is going to have greater dispersion than a heavier barrel and it will happen with fewer shots done the barrel due to heating.

As for method there are several ranging from the classic Audette Ladder to Dan Newberry's OCW to …. Almost every percussion shooter has a different method to some extent. And the winner is ? Most work but it is the target that governs not the chronograph. For your purpose I would use OCW to find a repeatable load (shot at 100yds) and verify at 300yds on target. The chronograph is better for evaluating how well your reloading process is producing consistent ammo.

 

[Taylorbok]

and if none group for $hit.
And when doing so and you have some that group good and some not say group 1-2 work but 3,4 & 5 are junk are you loading 5 more in .1 gr increments between group 1 & 2 to again find the best accuracy in that bunch of charge weights

no I don't do those little tiny adjustments. I'd possibly split the difference between charges but it's not really gonna make a difference. Honestly they probably mostly all shoot the same if you shot a large sample of each and compared them.
Hornady has some good podcasts on sample size and load dev etc. So does Litz but you gotta pay to watch those.

 

[champ198]

I will take a look more into the OCW and read up and start over and see what I can get.

 

[Im2bent]

and if none group for $hit.
And when doing so and you have some that group good and some not say group 1-2 work but 3,4 & 5 are junk are you loading 5 more in .1 gr increments between group 1 & 2 to again find the best accuracy in that bunch of charge weights

Then try a different bullet and/or powder your rifle may not like what you are using.

 

[straightshooter1]

I am 100% confident in the scope being mounted well and all mounting screws are tight.
I can understand where the Brass could possibly be different from case to case. I assume that just weighing each case is what you are meaning by the sorting of the cases? Again still trying to learn.

For the power measure I trickle in after throwing and the Scale is a RCBS M500 Balance beam. I Have thought about getting one of the higher end scales that are out there like the one from Creedmoor Sports because of the possible inconsistency of the Balance Beam.

For Primers the Winchester is all i have on hand and they are a bit of a pain to find the LRP. One thing I have thought about doing is getting some more higher end brass like from Alpha that uses the SRP for the 6.5CM. But that's another topic.

I am planning to do some checking tonight on CBTO of what my loads are in relation to a factory round and also measure the rifle as well to see where all are at. Again, I just loaded these to the COAL that Hornady lists in their manual.

It's a good idea, you won't be sorry going to the Alpha brass.

I also have an M500 balance beam that I started out with, which I no longer use. I strongly feel that's at the heart of your issue. I tried all kinds ways to get my M500 to produce consistent and accurate results. But my chronograph kept showing me I was at a limit. . . not being able to improve my ES's and SD's where I wanted to be. For me, the goal was single digit SD's and I know with such SD's I should be getting good ES's too.

When I went to a digital scale the could measure to +/- .02 of a grain, that's when things really improved. What's now an old Gem-Pro 250 is one that worked well in that way, but it was a little hassle keeping it from drifting, which slowed down my loading process. You know that buy one cry once thing . . . I eventually went to the FX-120i, which took away that issue for me.

If price is a concern, Creedmoor Sports has a nice digital scale that should do the job for you (the FX-120i is much better for a couple hundred more). The one I'm thinking is their TRX-925.

Other than that M500, these are the scales I've used:

 

[champ198]

The Creedmoor Sports scale is the one I have been looking at.
I am wondering also like you if my scale isn't a big issue.
I have also been working on loads with my 243 Win and am getting pretty inconsistent velocities also with it.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Here's a video of an Optimal Charge Weight approach I like:

" OCW " Optimal Charge Weight load development by Ryan Furman - Long Range Only

Ryan goes over his load development method incorporating the Optimal Charge Weight “OCW” process. To down load the suggested OCW target GO HERE To discuss this review or ask questions, Please GO HERE

www.longrangeonly.com

I used a balance beam scale for a long time. It takes some time to learn it's errors and to be consistent but they do work well.

 

[Chris1972]

If you’re going from 41.1 to 41.2 and getting that big of a jump in groups it’s not your powder charge. Something else is wrong.

That’s 1.75” to 4” then back down to 1.5” for 41.3. Some peoples scales aren’t even that tight and shoot good groups.

 

[R_A_W]

That 10 shot ladder really doesn't tell you anything about where a good load is. You can shoot that same ladder more than once and each time you'll get a different looking ladder.

x2

@champ198 the 41.3gr charge in your ladder test is a great example. If you graphed the mean from your subsequent 41.3gr 5-shot group on your ladder instead, it would have been a nearly linear increase from the previous 2 charge weights on the ladder.

You see people claim that a flat spot across a couple or few charge weights in a ladder shows consistency across that range of charge weights, but never you never see the same people acknowledging that the flat spots might actually be caused by charge weights that are more inconsistent & have higher SD/ES. Why not? Per their claims, some charge weights are less stable. Why not those?

I don't subscribe to OCW, but I still always shoot & chrono ladders to get a baseline and check for pressure when I'm using a new powder or considerably different bullet weight. I'm not advocating for statistical significance - life's too short.

I just ran 500 Win LRP in my 6.5cm & groups definitely opened up. They're not bad enough to produce 1.5" and 4" groups, but they're not helping you out either. You've got bigger issues though.

Is this new or fired Hornady brass? What is your neck tension?

 

[champ198]

Here are the target pictures with the charge weights

 

[champ198]

x2

@champ198 the 41.3gr charge in your ladder test is a great example. If you graphed the mean from your subsequent 41.3gr 5-shot group on your ladder instead, it would have been a nearly linear increase from the previous 2 charge weights on the ladder.

You see people claim that a flat spot across a couple or few charge weights in a ladder shows consistency across that range of charge weights, but never you never see the same people acknowledging that the flat spots might actually be caused by charge weights that are more inconsistent & have higher SD/ES. Why not? Per their claims, some charge weights are less stable. Why not those?

I don't subscribe to OCW, but I still always shoot & chrono ladders to get a baseline and check for pressure when I'm using a new powder or considerably different bullet weight. I'm not advocating for statistical significance - life's too short.

I just ran 500 Win LRP in my 6.5cm & groups definitely opened up. They're not bad enough to produce 1.5" and 4" groups, but they're not helping you out either. You've got bigger issues though.

Is this new or fired Hornady brass? What is your neck tension?

My Brass is once fired brass. Now I did get some of this once fired from someone else. Could my issue be that this brass has not been fire formed in this particular rifle? Would it benefit me to try thee rounds again now that they have been fired in this rifle?

I do not know what my neck tension is. That is something I do not have the equipment for.

 

[supercorndogs]

x2

@champ198 the 41.3gr charge in your ladder test is a great example. If you graphed the mean from your subsequent 41.3gr 5-shot group on your ladder instead, it would have been a nearly linear increase from the previous 2 charge weights on the ladder.

You see people claim that a flat spot across a couple or few charge weights in a ladder shows consistency across that range of charge weights, but never you never see the same people acknowledging that the flat spots might actually be caused by charge weights that are more inconsistent & have higher SD/ES. Why not? Per their claims, some charge weights are less stable. Why not those?

I don't subscribe to OCW, but I still always shoot & chrono ladders to get a baseline and check for pressure when I'm using a new powder or considerably different bullet weight. I'm not advocating for statistical significance - life's too short.

I just ran 500 Win LRP in my 6.5cm & groups definitely opened up. They're not bad enough to produce 1.5" and 4" groups, but they're not helping you out either. You've got bigger issues though.

Is this new or fired Hornady brass? What is your neck tension?

What does OCW have to do with chronos or ladders?

 

[Taylorbok]

My Brass is once fired brass. Now I did get some of this once fired from someone else. Could my issue be that this brass has not been fire formed in this particular rifle? Would it benefit me to try thee rounds again now that they have been fired in this rifle?

I do not know what my neck tension is. That is something I do not have the equipment for.

Fired brass and neck tension make a tiny ass difference and are more tied to sd/es than group size.
There is something else going on with this rifle or it hates that bullet/powder combo.
Check absolutely everything on the rifle over and if that’s all good try another bullet.

 

[R_A_W]

What does OCW have to do with chronos or ladders?

It’s only OCW if it comes from land of Newberry

@champ198 there are too many issues to give you any solid advice. How does this rifle shoot with factory ammo?

 

[Chris1972]

I think he stated it shoots .75 with factory 143 eldx.

If that’s the case he should run that again now to confirm it’s not a rifle or scope issue. That would quickly eliminate that.

 

[champ198]

I think he stated it shoots .75 with factory 143 eldx.

If that’s the case he should run that again now to confirm it’s not a rifle or scope issue. That would quickly eliminate that.

Will be doing that this weekend also.

 

[R_A_W]

I do not know what my neck tension is. That is something I do not have the equipment for.

You only need calipers to measure it, but getting it correct will require an appropriate neck bushing & ideally a mandrel die.
1) Measure the OD of your sized brass, should be within a few thousandths less than 0.294”, like 0.291”
2) Measure the thickness of the neck of the brass and multiply by 2, should be something like 0.014” x 2 = 0.029”
3) Subtract 2 from 1, e.g. 0.291” - 0.029” = 0.262”
4) Subtract that from the caliber you’re loading, e.g. 0.264” - 0.262” = 0.002” of neck interference or “neck tension”

Also, what sizing die & how much are you bumping the shoulder?

@Taylorbok is right, neither of these can produce 4” groups. Just trying to get you on the right path after you figure out whatever else is going on.

 

[Jack's Dad]

Those Winchester primers are basically Magnum primers. Get alpha or Lapua brass, cci srp, load 41.5 and don't seat your bullets so deep and you'll have what you need. If that doesn't work then it's you.

 

[straightshooter1]

My Brass is once fired brass. Now I did get some of this once fired from someone else. Could my issue be that this brass has not been fire formed in this particular rifle? Would it benefit me to try thee rounds again now that they have been fired in this rifle?

I do not know what my neck tension is. That is something I do not have the equipment for.

To find out what "neck tension" you have, just take your caliper and measure the outside diameter of the neck before you seat a bullet, then measure that again after you seat a bullet. The difference is your "neck tension". You'll probably see some variance in that measurement as you rotate the case in your caliper; that's due to variation is neck wall thickness. So, try to take the measurement for "neck tension" at the same place on the neck.

Fire forming tends to make the brass more uniform as it's formed to your particular chamber dimensions. Once fire formed, that helps in getting consistency. But, it's not enough to account for mush of the issue you're dealing with.

 

[Thump_rrr]

Load 5 every half grain from 39.5-41.5
.020" off the lands (or mag length what ever is shortest)
Shoot groups and see which groups the best. Done.

I would do this but shot round robin OCW style.

 

[BenE]

Those Winchester primers are basically Magnum primers. Get alpha or Lapua brass, cci srp, load 41.5 and don't seat your bullets so deep and you'll have what you need. If that doesn't work then it's you.

I agree they are hot….hot garbage too. I’ve never got them to shoot good es/sd regardless of powder. They now go in blaster ammo and nothing resembling match ammo

 

[Doom]

My Brass is once fired brass. Now I did get some of this once fired from someone else. Could my issue be that this brass has not been fire formed in this particular rifle? Would it benefit me to try thee rounds again now that they have been fired in this rifle?

I do not know what my neck tension is. That is something I do not have the equipment for.

If this brass is from multiple lots it may well be a large part of the issue even if it is all Hornady. The 0.1 gr increment going from 4" to 1.25" leads me to believe you are having issues with consistency or something is very different in your loading process. There are certain things I would recommend not looking at. Don't worry about seating depth, just stay with 2.800" but measure CBTO to be consistent. I doubt primers are the issue. Don't worry about neck tension too much just be consistent in your neck prep. Invest in some brass so you are using consistent batch and don't use mixed lots.

Telll us more about your rifle and also what/how you are setting up and shooting these tests (bags/sled) and time between shots.