Next-level gaming the system & switch barrel guns ...

[300ATT]

There has been a lot of discussion about match formats, "original intent" and shooters "gaming" the system. Gaming the system derives from a natural human desire to improve or optimize one's condition and is not a bad thing until someone crosses the line of cheating/dishonesty which introduces new rules checks and balances as the game morphs on. This natural human trait usually drives us to unintended consequences.

The question I pose is one based on my experience with switch barrel rifles (Blaser, AI/AT, AI PSR). Is there a rule in PRS/NRL that states that a competitor must complete the course of fire with the same barrel/caliber?

I am a big fan of switch barrel "systems" (they are systems not guns) and see a lot of value to this approach. Find yourself a stock/chassis that fits you, a trigger you know and trust as well as an optic that you know and trust then swap out the bolt/barrel for a cartridge that is best suited to the task at hand, wether it is practice, midrange (400-800) long range or ELR or even hunting.

I have always liked the Blaser approach of a stock/chassis/trigger that never changes yet allows the shooter to select a caliber as needed. The PSR, AI/AT is another great way to go - you just have to be on top of your zero changes between barrels ...

Switch barrels are finally coming of age and will take match gaming to the next level ...

 

[lash]

Locally, we added a rule that you have to use the same rifle/system for the whole match if you want your score to count. We don’t care if you shoot the match with multiple rifles, your score just will not be counted. Essentially a DNF.

 

[300ATT]

So is that based on a serial #? What about the guy with the same action (serial #) but different bolt/barrels? Hell that guy could even swap out a chassis along the way and keep the same gun (serial #) ...

I see lots of opportunity to game ... and that is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[SkyScrapin]

Seems like more of a disadvantage rather than an advantage. Switching your DOPE and Zero are the obvious problems. While Zero's are mostly close with most system you listed, they can be marginally off which extrapolates down range. To me, it's just one more thing to worry about, even though it's something my rifle systems can do (AI AX and PSR). To each his own.

 

[Rthur]

While this could morph into a perceived edge has it been used?

R

 

[300ATT]

Switching your dope not so much, switching you zero can be a problem, ask me how I know ...

Consider the following scenario: I go to shoot a PRS match and in the nearish positional stages I stick in a 6mm BR barrel, For the Long range I drop in a 6.5x55 barrel or .300 WM barrel. it takes a total of 30-45 seconds to switch from 6mm BR to 6.5x55. Going to .300 WM adds another 60 seconds as you have to swap out the bolt head:



In this case there is no tweaking the zero since the barrels come with individual scopes attached. It is just a matter of selecting a different entry in your ballistics app to get the correct dope.

 

[Diver160651]

Man that seems like a shit ton of stuff to worry about.. and extra weight to carry.

Ever look at the average target distance PRS/NRL or even other field type matches? Sure you'll get a couple really long stages, but to carry the extra stuff seems like it might not be worth the possibility of an extra point or two on the couple of stages past 1K .

When I blow a stage it is because I was task loaded. Maybe I wrote down the wrong distance, even started on the wrong stage card, but often it is simple as shooting the wrong target or remembering the dope incorrectly. Anything I can do to reduce the workload, the gear and the complexity helps my score. Hell I've see guys (myself too) even with something simple, so tangled in their tripod they missed more than if they just left it on the pack.

More is NOT always better; at least for me.

 

[kthomas]

Keep it simple. The people you usually see struggle most on stages are those that are dragging the most gear around and their brain is a cluster fuck trying to figure out which piece of gear to use.

No need for a Magnum for any of the PRS events, except maybe their "ELR" matches. Even their "ELR" matches have targets 80% inside 1200 yards - realistically you don't even need a Magnum for those matches.

Keep it simple. You are asking for a fuck up if you want to swap barrels all the time between stages. I guarantee you would still get your ass kicked by those experienced match shooters that are keeping it simple.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

What I think a great advantage of a switch barrel system is using the same chassis/action/scope to practice with say a 6br or a 223/224valk then screw on the gameday barrel.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Another 4-6lbs barrel to lug around. More ammo to lug around. Although with guys pushing those gay 3 gun strollers around around like Mr.Mom these days this may not be an issue.

Two types of ammo to manage and mix up. Can't tell you how many times I've seen guys go up to the line and shoot with an empty mag or one that only had a few rounds remaining from the last stage and they're hollering for their buddy to toss them and extra mag from their pack, toss two different types off ammo into the mix and you've got a safety issue for yourself and any RO standing right next to you holding the shot timer.

Two different profiles in your kestrel to have to switch around. I've done this although not at a match, just a casual range day where I switched to run another rifle when I was done with one and couldn't figure out why my dope was so far off until I realized it.

Too much to think about and do when that time would be better spent locating targets, watching wind and mirage, how other shooters before you run the stage, and so forth. Not to mention all that conversion time would surely slow down match flow and that's inconsiderate to everyone else.

IMO it's a stupid idea and even if it's not in the rules it should be simply for the reasons of safety and interrupting match flow because you know it would happen. You should run what ya brung from the start to finish of the match and the only reason a shooter should be allowed to change to a backup rifle or caliber is if the rifle malfunctions, legitimately.

 

[kthomas]

What I think a great advantage of a switch barrel system is using the same chassis/action/scope to practice with say a 6br or a 223/224valk then screw on the gameday barrel.

Every rifle is a "switch barrel" rifle. It's easy to swap shouldered barrels - I swap between a 6.5 creedmoor and 6BRA all the time on one of my rifles.

In most cases I think the "switch barrel" fad is a bit of a gimmick. Plus the last thing I want to worry about is having an extra component, such as a set screw holding the barrel in place to come loose at the most inopportune time.

 

[lash]

So is that based on a serial #? What about the guy with the same action (serial #) but different bolt/barrels? Hell that guy could even swap out a chassis along the way and keep the same gun (serial #) ...

I see lots of opportunity to game ... and that is not necessarily a bad thing.

It’s simpler than that for us. As mentioned, these are small local matches. We know who’s shooting what when the match starts. Not hard to figure if you’re trying to game it outside of the MDs intent.

 

[kthomas]

If people want to swap barrels/cartridges I say let them. They are still going to suck compared to those that are keeping it simple. If they don't have the right dope selected for their barrel when shooting a stage - then they should be automatically DQ'ed. Frequent offenders should then be banned from PRS/NRL matches for safety concerns.

If this is how you think you are going to game/be successful in these matches, you have a long learning curve ahead of you.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

If people want to swap barrels/cartridges I say let them. They are still going to suck compared to those that are keeping it simple. If they don't have the right dope selected for their barrel when shooting a stage - then they should be automatically DQ'ed. Frequent offenders should then be banned from PRS/NRL matches for safety concerns.

If this is how you think you are going to game/be successful in these matches, you have a long learning curve ahead of you.

I completely agree with you on the point of it being a compound mindfuck that will hinder more than help, but I disagree with allowing it. All it takes is some tard to grab their mag full of 6.5 Creedmoor instead of 6mm Creedmoor and touching one off to seriously injur or kill themselves and the RO standing their with the timer. Sure this could happen right out of the gate if you own two rifles or barrels and grab the wrong ammo and don’t catch it until you’re out at a match ready to shoot your first stage, but it’s much more likely to happen and I guarantee you that it would if someone is intentionally carrying two types of ammo.

I’m sorry but putting others safety at this much risk to try to gain competitive edge is where the line needs to be drawn.

 

[300ATT]

Lots of good points and discussion here.

- Yes, agree for most of us the added complexity would serve to hinder not help; however that is not true for all -someone(s) will figure it out. My AI PSR has a POI shift of exactly 5/8" @ 100 yards between the .260 barrel and the .338LM barrel. Dealing with this shift would be trivial.

So, if at one of those less common PRS matches with targets beyond 1,100 if a competitor shoots the majority of it with a 6mm or 6.5 but then on the beyond 1,100 stage(s) is able to convert the gun to a .338LM or 30 Norma and hold edge of plate for those points that everyone else is sort of OK to lose ... did he/she "cheat" or game the system?

Safety - should be THE paramount concern ... but don't think its that much of an issue. It is really hard to chamber a 6.5 creedmoor in a 6 creedmoor and for this approach to be effective the disparity in the cartridges needs to be more extreme such as swapping out a 6mmBR for 7mm WSM or 30 Norma, not a 6 creedmoor for a 6.5 creedmoor that's silly.

- Switch barrel is a fad: Humbly disagree - there is a lot of value in terms of training with a "system" that has the exact same ergonomics, trigger pull, glass, not to mention the economic savings - so much so that even the US military is soliciting solutions along this line. Prediction: you will some enterprising chassis company like MDT "partner" with shops who sell MDT drop-in barreled actions for their chassis. You will also see more pre-fit remage and shouldered barrel offerings to service the same need.

- Yes, agree I have a long learning curve ahead of me and the older I get the more I realize how much more I have to learn ...

 

[Sheldon N]

Time to get a caddy to carry a golf bag full of barrels and ammo for you. They could give you caliber suggestions and screw on a new barrel for you for each different stage.

Shooter: Jeeves! Bring me my 22BR barrel for this barricade stage!

Caddy: Very good sir. Might I humbly suggest holding 3 tenths left of center?

 

[300ATT]

Good one. Maybe PRS should try to be more like golf than Nascar. With the caddy and the cart it would be like the last time that I shot sporting clays ...

 

[earthquake]

Instead of barrels, what about rules concerning using different bullets?

Example: for all targets < 800 yds or whatever, I stick with my trusty 140 hybrids. For the long stuff, I pull out my Warner Flatline solids. Knowing my zero offset, if any, or just a new kestrel entry, I plug that number in and shoot.

No idea if that's beneficial, it's just a quick thought experiment, or top of my head example. Seems easier than a complete caliber change.

 

[300ATT]

Some NRA across the course shooters do just that. Lighter bullets for the 200,300 rapid fire stages and heavies for the 600

 

[GrandpaDeadLegs]

What about a gas gun competition that lets you have 2 or 3 uppers?

Door kicking pistol suppressed 300blk on some stages, Valkyrie on long stuff...

But yeah, no thanks on lugging around extra shit.

 

[samb300]

My buddy and I have discussed/joked about this frequently since one of our local matches always has a stand/kneel/prone unsupported stage at 200 yards. We both shoot factory AIs, so swapping the 24" 6.5 Heavy Palma barrel for a 16" 22BR Proof Carbon barrel wouldn't be too difficult to keep track of for zero/sight offset. Would it be worth it? I dunno, I always suck on that stage so anything might help!

 

[Dthomas3523]

Not sure how enforced it is, but in NRL rules, it states you can only use one rifle for the entire competition. Even states that if said gun fails, you have to get that same gun working.

I would say in the spirit of that rule, at least for an nrl match, swapping barrels would be a no go.

 

[Dthomas3523]

My buddy and I have discussed/joked about this frequently since one of our local matches always has a stand/kneel/prone unsupported stage at 200 yards. We both shoot factory AIs, so swapping the 24" 6.5 Heavy Palma barrel for a 16" 22BR Proof Carbon barrel wouldn't be too difficult to keep track of for zero/sight offset. Would it be worth it? I dunno, I always suck on that stage so anything might help!

RO sling and practice would probably fix it. ?

 

[Diver160651]

Firstly, sure way to have everyone in your squad and then squad behind treat you like shit for slowing them down..

More importantly, I not been to a match where the RO would be keen on anything more than setting your rifle down in the appropriate staging area in a safe direction..

Nobody is going to be happy with barrels, especially barrel actions, going in and out and someone performing complex non-essential repairs in the staging area.. (safety concerns)

 

[Dthomas3523]

As far as switch barrel being a fad.....kinda.

It’s like the keto diet. People were doing it years ago and just did what they needed to get into “ketosis.” Now some came up with the name keto diet and marketed it.

People were changing barrels out long ago. Just a little easier now and someone coined it “switch barrel.”

Some guys still have hitch mounted barrel vices.

 

[just browsing]

Not sure how enforced it is, but in NRL rules, it states you can only use one rifle for the entire competition. Even states that if said gun fails, you have to get that same gun working.

I would say in the spirit of that rule, at least for an nrl match, swapping barrels would be a no go.

Which is kinda dumb in my opinion. No backup rifle is going to take a competitor and win a match for them, but it could definitely lose one. I am kinda indifferent on allowing barrel changes during a match because a guy thinks it will give him an advantage, but I am certainly for allowing shooters to complete a match with a different rifle due to legitimate failure.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Which is kinda dumb in my opinion. No backup rifle is going to take a competitor and win a match for them, but it could definitely lose one. I am kinda indifferent on allowing barrel changes during a match because a guy thinks it will give him an advantage, but I am certainly for allowing shooters to complete a match with a different rifle due to legitimate failure.

I’m 50/50 on it. Your car breaks down in a race, you’re out. But at the same time, I couldn’t care less if someone has a legitimate problem and gets another rifle.

I’m assuming it stems from these matches originally mimicking field conditions. Depending on your unit/department, you may or may not have a second rifle sitting nearby if your primary rifle goes down.

 

[300ATT]

Agree, any set up that requires a barrel vice or 40-100ft-lb torque wrench is not a "true" switch-barrel rifle. A true take-down/switch rifle can be put together with a single tool (or none) that you can fit in your pants pocket (e.g. single allen wrench).