Gunsmithing NFA Question: Would this build constitute a Title II firearm?

[pugnado]

I'm not sure if this is the right forum but it seems like the place to ask questions about building firearms and staying on the right side of the law.

If one were to build a weapon with the following characteristics, would it be an NFA Title II firearm?

1. Utilizes a AR-15 type lower receiver that has never had a rifle shoulder stock attached to it and was transferred on ATF Form 4473 as 'Other Firearm' to the weapon maker.​

2. Uses an ATF-approved SB Tactical SBA3 Pistol Stabilizing Brace which is not designed nor intended to support firing the weapon from the shoulder.​

3. Uses a Law Tactical Folding Stock Adapter which is not designed nor intended to fire the weapon in an open (folded) position.​

4. Has a barrel length of less than 16" measured from the end of the muzzle threads to a closed and locked bolt face.​

5. Has a vertical foregrip.​

6. The weapon has an overall length of greater than 26" from the end of the muzzle threads to the rearmost portion of the unfolded and extended brace measured along the bore axis.​

Are there any odd state laws that would make such a configuration not legal? (Not counting the usual blue suspects.)

Edit: I kind of want to make a rifle version of the Black Aces Tactical 'shotgun' after studying the letter they got from the ATF saying it's a 'firearm' (not SBS, not AOW, not pistol, not handgun etc...) and not under the purview of the NFA.

https://www.blackacestactical.com/product-page/black-aces-tactical-dt

Of course, I'd like to do so and keep my dog alive, but if it means sending my build to the ATF to determine legality I'd rather not do it. I'm not a manufacturer or reseller, FFL, SOT etc... so maybe I'm not allowed to make things like this at all?

 

[strikeeagle1]

Once you the individual starts to cobble together all the parts in your mind for this build and Before you have the rifle receiver in your posession will first need to submit a ATF Form 1 and get an approved application to build it. You will be building either an AOW or an SBR. It was never going to be a pistol, so its not a pistol; it will not be a shotgun of any kind as you stated. You will need to comply with all state, local and federal laws in the zip code you intend to posess it, the most restrictive of the regulations controlling the build and posession thereof.

 

[GH41]

It will fire (One Shot) with the LAW adapter folded so the pistol grip couldn't be used without a stamp.

 

[_Windrider_]

It will fire (One Shot) with the LAW adapter folded so the pistol grip couldn't be used without a stamp.

FYI, law now has a buffer that allows firing with stock folded.

 

[hermosabeach]

It's my understanding that for an AR Pistol build, the receiver has to be manufactured as a Pistol.
No physical difference, it's just how manufacturer Listed it When built.


Shotguns have the AOW area... and the area where it's not deemed a hand gun as it is smooth bore....
Rifles and Pistols don't have the same area so converting a pistol grip only shotgun becomes feasible

If it is an AR, with a barrel then Shorter than 16" = NFA unless it was originally manufactured to be a pistol.

--
So here is the rub... If you accidentally build something that might be locally confused by LEO, you might be out $20-$50K in criminal attorneys...
If you build something that might be an SBR with the feds... the odds are it will not be noticed as the feds are not out at shooting ranges looking for a one off builder... Locals might take it and then ask the feds about it....

If you are in a free state, my suggestion is to file the form 1 or 4 and have it legally made into an SBR, I think manufacturers only pay $5 not the $200 we pay on a DIY basis.

Then do the engraving and be aware of how / if you can take it to another state.

 

[corey4]

So buying a stripped lower, filling out the paperwork as "other" then building a pistol is a no go?

 

[pugnado]

Once you the individual starts to cobble together all the parts in your mind for this build and Before you have the rifle receiver in your possession will first need to submit a ATF Form 1 and get an approved application to build it. You will be building either an AOW or an SBR. It was never going to be a pistol, so its not a pistol; it will not be a shotgun of any kind as you stated. You will need to comply with all state, local and federal laws in the zip code you intend to posess it, the most restrictive of the regulations controlling the build and possession thereof.

I am familiar with the Form 1 SBR process and constructive possession. That being said, I do not have all the parts readily available to build the possible NFA SBR/AOW configuration I proposed nor do I intend to until I know with a reasonable degree of certainty that it is legal without an ATF tax stamp, and legal in my state and locality. If not, then I have to make a decision to Form 1 an AOW/SBR or move on. (Don't shoot my dog.)

Take a look at this:

https://www.blackacestactical.com/product-page/shockwave-folding-brace-assembly-with-psd

It's got a folding brace and they claim that it does not change the classification of this shot-shell accepting 'pistol.'
I would assume that's because it doesn't have a VFG and is still a pistol/handgun folded and unfolded.
OAL for this configuration doesn't matter, not on the federal level anyway.

Another brace configuration which caught my eye is this one and it has a VFG, but not a foldable stock:

https://franklinarmory.com/bfsiii-equipped-franklin-armory-xo-26-r2

It looks like a brace equipped not-a-rifle 'pistol' like the previous, but then not a pistol because of the two-handed VFG configuration, and also not an AOW because of the 'unconcealable' fixed OAL > 26" that cannot be changed by folding or collapsing the brace. OAL on this firearm matters. So that's how they're able to sell that one as 'firearm' and not anything else.

(Note: It looks like the brace is in a fixed length configuration which may or may not be exactly kosher because there's at least one opinion letter where the ATF considers long-ish fixed things on the back of firearms as rifle stocks and not adjustable wrist braces. Would have to look a the determination letter for the XO-26 to be sure. )

Also this one, 11.5" barrel, with shoulder-fired rifle stock, not an SBR: https://franklinarmory.com/reformation-rs11/

This firearm gets around NFA SBR descriptions by not being a rifle. It's a straight cut 300 blackout barrel ( not rifled -> not a rifle -> not a SBR. ) The lack of rifling probably presents a whole host of accuracy issues and probably needs special finned bullets, but it's not an NFA item as such.

For most of those items, Black Aces and Franklin lists an array of states that presumably have more restrictive regulations on the barrel and OAL lengths, or directly named as restricted/registration required 'assault weapons' blah blah blah... Not for civilian sales in CA, CT, DC, IA, ND, NJ, NY, HI, RI, FL, MD, CT, or WA. (Thankfully I have no state or local issues to worry about so I only have to consider NFA/GCA and my state conceal carry laws.)

Also, it looks like the ATF is now in the business of measuring with the braces folded and calling things AOW's, at least in this case, which goes against all previous ATF length measuring with braces and stocks extended:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/05/24/oal-brace-folded

After studying some more ATF responses for these kinds of firearms, they do note that in such a configuration it is no longer a handgun nor a pistol, so any state laws that permit concealed and loaded carry of handguns and pistols no longer apply. Could very well be breaking state law and violating the terms of a carry permit by keeping one of these concealed, loaded, within reach in a vehicle etc... so that's a consideration that might just convince me to build a pistol/handgun.

Notwithstanding, Johnny Law might object to any legal configuration of these at the range or bouncing around on the dashboard and decide he knows the law and act accordingly, inflicting a whole amount of hassle that will ultimately be resolved by a court sometime after a massive amount of inconvenience and a dead dog. So when all is said and done, maybe the best course of action is to build a 'pistol' with an ATF-approved angled foregrip or no foregrip and leave it at that?

 

[Tx_Aggie]

It's my understanding that for an AR Pistol build, the receiver has to be manufactured as a Pistol.
No physical difference, it's just how manufacturer Listed it When built.


Shotguns have the AOW area... and the area where it's not deemed a hand gun as it is smooth bore....
Rifles and Pistols don't have the same area so converting a pistol grip only shotgun becomes feasible

If it is an AR, with a barrel then Shorter than 16" = NFA unless it was originally manufactured to be a pistol.

--
So here is the rub... If you accidentally build something that might be locally confused by LEO, you might be out $20-$50K in criminal attorneys...
If you build something that might be an SBR with the feds... the odds are it will not be noticed as the feds are not out at shooting ranges looking for a one off builder... Locals might take it and then ask the feds about it....

If you are in a free state, my suggestion is to file the form 1 or 4 and have it legally made into an SBR, I think manufacturers only pay $5 not the $200 we pay on a DIY basis.

Then do the engraving and be aware of how / if you can take it to another state.

This is incorrect. An AR lower is considered a receiver, and thus listed as such when transferred between FFLs prior to sale. On the 4473 is it is transferred as an "Other" and listed as a lower receiver. This is true whether it is a stripped lower or an assembled lower with a buffer tube of some sort attached, but lacking an upper. It only becomes a long gun, handgun, etc, when a barreled upper receiver is attached for the first time.

For example, you could buy an assembled lower with a carbine buffer tube and stock attached and build it into a pistol, by replacing the buffer assembly with a pistol buffer and brace, and afterwards attaching a 10.5" barreled upper. Some folks have done exactly this with Colt lowers when they were selling assembled lowers but not stripped.

I would be skeptical of an FFL who asked if I intended to build a lower into a rifle or pistol, as it's not info they need to complete the 4473.

As for the OP's original question, why not just leave the vertical foregrip off so the item is unquestionably a pistol and you're not playing in the grey area between "firearm" and AOW?

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

So buying a stripped lower, filling out the paperwork as "other" then building a pistol is a no go?

It's a go, it can't be listed on the 4473 as "rifle" then built into a pistol configuration as it would then be a SBR. When purchasing a stripped lower everyone I know puts "other" on the 4473. If it's a factory gun built as a rifle...............always a rifle.

Sorry, TX posted as I was typing.....................

 

[pugnado]

I would be skeptical of an FFL who asked if I intended to build a lower into a rifle or pistol, as it's not info they need to complete the 4473.

As for the OP's original question, why not just leave the vertical foregrip off so the item is unquestionably a pistol and you're not playing in the grey area between "firearm" and AOW?

Side Story: A long time ago when I transferred my M5 Aero Lower some newbie girl working at the firearms counter in the bigbox store where I did my transfer (I know, I know) insisted that because it 'could' be built into a 'pistol' that I had to also go through the state-specific background check and pay the state fee for handguns. Although the idea of a .308 pistol is sort of cool, I was like 'fine, wtf, just what do I have to do' and started filling out a separate state form. Her manager came along (probably the guy with the real FFL) and was like WTF are you doing. Since NICS always DELAYS me for no good reason (long story) and they forgot to call when the PROCEED came in, he apologized profusely for all the bullshit and I got a free transfer then and he does them for me for free if I come in when he's working. I buy a lot of stuff from them.

You're right though. I think until the Freedom Shoppe case is settled or at least more information is known about it, I'm just going to build a pistol while I hum and haw about Form 1, VFG's and rifle stocks. I've been keeping an eye on Silencer Shop's Form 1 service (down because of ATF fuckery) and since I already have a can through them and they have my prints, I'll probably just do that. Eventually.

 

[pugnado]

It's a go, it can't be listed on the 4473 as "rifle" then built into a pistol configuration as it would then be a SBR. When purchasing a stripped lower everyone I know puts "other" on the 4473. If it's a factory gun built as a rifle...............always a rifle.

Sorry, TX posted as I was typing.....................

That is how I understand it as well. Once a rifle, always a rifle.

As I understand it, it all has to do with the NFA covering things that are 'weapon made from a rifle' as these wonderful progressives will demonstrate:





So even if all features and function make it look like and operate like a pistol indistinguishable from another non-NFA pistol, and even if you strip the whole thing down to the bare receiver to not accidentally/unintentionally create an SBR in the process, if it ever was a rifle it's an NFA item now. Infringe much yeah?

 

[Downtown]

I always love the range of replies these questions bring. You're making a handgun out of a brand new reciever. No problem, but you cannot have a fore grip on a handgun. Just change it to a hand stop.

 

[GH41]

"I always love the range of replies these questions bring. You're making a handgun out of a brand new reciever. No problem, but you cannot have a fore grip on a handgun. Just change it to a hand stop"

You can have a vertical grip on a pistol If the overall length is 26" or longer.

 

[pugnado]

I always love the range of replies these questions bring. You're making a handgun out of a brand new reciever. No problem, but you cannot have a fore grip on a handgun. Just change it to a hand stop.

It's not as simple as that though. Sometimes you can have a foregrip on a pistol/handgun.

In these letters, the ATF says that a pistol > 26" OAL can have a vertical foregrip without being AOW and instead classify it as 'firearm.'





Specifically, the requester asked about building a weapon similar to the Franklin Armory XO-26:

https://franklinarmory.com/bfsiii-equipped-franklin-armory-xo-26-s/

So what if a pistol has a variable OAL (folding, adjustable brace) that can be measured in lots of different ways, some ways greater than 26" and some not while still being an operable firearm?

This letter says the OAL can be measured by 'extend or fold out the shoulder stock to its extreme length, if applicable.'

Now we get more into grey: If this is a pistol, it doesn't have a shoulder stock, that being a rifle term, so not applicable? Should OAL then be measured in a minimalist way with things and folded/collapsed, the way barrels are measured in similar minimalist ways?

That's where we're at in this thread, with the ATF being inconsistent with the way they measure OAL in practice and agents roaming around doing it this way and that way. Hence the 'grey' area between 'firearm' and 'AOW' without a determination letter.

I've sent an email to Black Aces asking them about the folding 'brace' and the not-quite-vertical grip on their SBS-like product.

(Side Note: While doing this research, I found out if you acquire a muzzle loading cannon made before 1898 you're GOOD TO GO and the feds won't bug you: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-muzzleloading-cannons-classified-destructive-devices )

 

[GH41]

"I've sent an email to Black Aces asking them about the folding 'brace' and the not-quite-vertical grip on their SBS-like product"

I'll bet you will find that is over 26" OA with the brace folded.

 

[...]

I'm not sure if this is the right forum but it seems like the place to ask questions about building firearms and staying on the right side of the law.

If one were to build a weapon with the following characteristics, would it be an NFA Title II firearm?

1. Utilizes a AR-15 type lower receiver that has never had a rifle shoulder stock attached to it and was transferred on ATF Form 4473 as 'Other Firearm' to the weapon maker.​

2. Uses an ATF-approved SB Tactical SBA3 Pistol Stabilizing Brace which is not designed nor intended to support firing the weapon from the shoulder.​

3. Uses a Law Tactical Folding Stock Adapter which is not designed nor intended to fire the weapon in an open (folded) position.​

4. Has a barrel length of less than 16" measured from the end of the muzzle threads to a closed and locked bolt face.​

5. Has a vertical foregrip.​

6. The weapon has an overall length of greater than 26" from the end of the muzzle threads to the rearmost portion of the unfolded and extended brace measured along the bore axis.​

Are there any odd state laws that would make such a configuration not legal? (Not counting the usual blue suspects.)

Edit: I kind of want to make a rifle version of the Black Aces Tactical 'shotgun' after studying the letter they got from the ATF saying it's a 'firearm' (not SBS, not AOW, not pistol, not handgun etc...) and not under the purview of the NFA.

https://www.blackacestactical.com/product-page/black-aces-tactical-dt

Of course, I'd like to do so and keep my dog alive, but if it means sending my build to the ATF to determine legality I'd rather not do it. I'm not a manufacturer or reseller, FFL, SOT etc... so maybe I'm not allowed to make things like this at all?

OP....there is a LOT of misinformation in this thread by people who clearly have no idea what they are talking about....

for your scenario, the folding adapter is irrevelant.

what you are building is an AR Pistol.....which is perfectly legal federally.

now, since you are building it with an overall length of 26"......it is no longer legally a "pistol".....and now becomes a "firearm".......which is also federally legal, and not subject to NFA laws......which means it is perfectly legal to put a VFG on it

 

[strikeeagle1]

ATF Form 4473 Section B
Question 16. Type of Firearm(s): "Other" refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms, including silencers.
If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, frames and receivers are still "firearms" by definition, and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 921(a)(3)(B). Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun or rifle," it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21, nor can these firearms be transferred to anyone who is not a resident of the State where the transfer is to take place. Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not "pistols or revolvers" under Section 923(g)(3)(A).

 

[strikeeagle1]

The Letter to Franklin Arms is interesting.
https://franklinarmory.com/content/Reformation Letter.pdf

The importance of ATF recognizing firearms constructed with barrels having straight lands & grooves (no rifling) hold a unique situation.

 

[pugnado]

OP....there is a LOT of misinformation in this thread by people who clearly have no idea what they are talking about....

for your scenario, the folding adapter is irrevelant.

what you are building is an AR Pistol.....which is perfectly legal federally.

now, since you are building it with an overall length of 26"......it is no longer legally a "pistol".....and now becomes a "firearm".......which is also federally legal, and not subject to NFA laws......which means it is perfectly legal to put a VFG on it

It comes down to the uncertainty of how to measure OAL of a pistol with a movable brace.

For rfiles and the Form 1, it's with everything extended and that's pretty clear for everyone.

You'll note that in the letters above it look like the agent copypasta'd some instructions for measuring OAL that makes reference to the word 'stock', which is a rifle term, then says 'if applicable' which might not apply to a pistol. Is this splitting hairs? Maybe. But 10 years in prison / $250,000 is on the line so I need clarification.

There's no doubt that if this configuration can be greater than 26" in length with all things that move placed in their extended and unfolded positions, so if the OAL of a pistol is measured like that, VFG no problem, weapon is a 'firearm.'

It can also be configured to be less than 26" in length with all things that move collapsed and folded, and will fire like that too.
If OAL of a pistol is measured in this configuration, VFG = NFA AOW. (And there's already one precedent for the ATF doing it this way.)

SB Tactical Has a 'Compliance FAQ' Here:

https://www.sb-tactical.com/about/compliance-story

It's interesting what they say here:

HOW OAL IS MEASURED​

​

The overall length, or OAL, of a firearm is the distance between the muzzle of the barrel (less any removable muzzle devices) and the rearmost portion of the weapon measured on a line parallel to the axis of the bore. The OAL of a braced firearm is measured in its shortest configuration (folded or collapsed)​

​

Now I'm willing to bet SB Tactical has probably had more correspondence with the ATF about all things pistol brace than anyone else, so I tend to think the definition of OAL for a pistol is as they say. If that's true, then buying this: https://www.blackacestactical.com/product-page/black-aces-tactical-dt with any of the SIG folding brace options is maybe buying an unregistered AOW. IMHO.

 

[...]

ATF guidelines say to measure the OAL with the stock at its most extended length.

Seeing as the Sig brace doesn’t have a fixed position..... I would measure OAL from the muzzle to the end of the buffer tube when unfolded.

I’ve not seen any ATF guidelines saying to measure to the folded length..... it might be worth giving SB a call to verify how they determined that.

It could be they have knowledge we don’t...,. Or they could be playing it safe( my guess)

For a definitive answer, contacting the ATF directly would be your safest option

 

[pugnado]

"I've sent an email to Black Aces asking them about the folding 'brace' and the not-quite-vertical grip on their SBS-like product"

I'll bet you will find that is over 26" OA with the brace folded.

It doesn't appear to be: https://cdn.athlonoutdoors.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2018/08/swmp-batdt-profile-fold.jpg

https://www.ballisticmag.com/2018/08/30/black-aces-tactical-dt-review/

The Black Aces DT has an overall length of 26.5 inches with the tube locked open and weighs about 7 pounds empty. Black Aces also became the proud possessor of a BATFE letter declaring the DT a firearm, not an “any other weapon” (AOW) or short-barreled shotgun (SBS), meaning no NFA paperwork was required.​

​

​

 

[pugnado]

ATF guidelines say to measure the OAL with the stock at its most extended length.

Seeing as the Sig brace doesn’t have a fixed position..... I would measure OAL from the muzzle to the end of the buffer tube when unfolded.

I’ve not seen any ATF guidelines saying to measure to the folded length..... it might be worth giving SB a call to verify how they determined that.

It could be they have knowledge we don’t...,. Or they could be playing it safe( my guess)

For a definitive answer, contacting the ATF directly would be your safest option

That seems like it would be the most logical answer for a 'normal' AR-type pistol without any kind of brace.
The old-school short padded tube hanging out the back.

It would be consistent with how barrels are measured, with removable/movable things not present.

Technically you don't need a buffer/spring/tube to fire a projectile and meet the NFA definition of 'firearm', so I can see them saying only include the length of the buffer tube in OAL if it's permanently attached (eg pinned and welded) to the receiver. Ugh.

I was at the range yesterday and saw a forward grip AR-pistol. It seems in practice, around here, people are just doing whatever.

This was the usual 10.5" .223/5.56 and it had the non-adjustable kind of fixed brace that Sig originally came out with back when it was don't ask don't tell on the shouldering question. Pretty sure it was well over 26" all the time, so that 's how he did it. (Then again, there is at least one ATF letter saying that attaching fixed items to the rear of a firearm of a certain length makes it a rifle stock., then SBR.)