I have had a NF and have another coming from Sport Optics. I may have the opportunity to sell 1 of my ar15s to a friend and instead of buying the bolt gun I want, I may buy a nice scope instead. I'm thinking of S&B, Premier. Shooting at 100-300. What would be a good choice of the 2 companies and what power? Would eventually go on a REM 700 5r or w GAP Rock if I can pull it off.
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Rifle Scopes Nice optic
- Thread starter newyork
- Start date
Re: Nice optic
I think you will find that most guys here will vote for the S&B. Ive owned a few in my time and the optics are second to none. For your shooting distance, I would get the 3-15x.
Just my .02 cents
I think you will find that most guys here will vote for the S&B. Ive owned a few in my time and the optics are second to none. For your shooting distance, I would get the 3-15x.
Just my .02 cents
Re: Nice optic
I've had the 5-25 in both scopes. The S&B wins hands down. The PH has some features that I really liked, MTC being one and the Gen II XR reticle. However, the more I use the P4F the more I like it.
I know there is some debate on this issue but for me, the S&B optical quality is superior. Much brighter and crisper and I like the size of the reticle better too.
41
I've had the 5-25 in both scopes. The S&B wins hands down. The PH has some features that I really liked, MTC being one and the Gen II XR reticle. However, the more I use the P4F the more I like it.
I know there is some debate on this issue but for me, the S&B optical quality is superior. Much brighter and crisper and I like the size of the reticle better too.
41
Re: Nice optic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would the 4-16 be the right move.? Should I be considering Hensoldt? </div></div>
Maybe.....here's one of each. I like them both. The Hensoldt is shorter and more compact and has a 56MM objective. The S&B's objective comes in 42 or 50....this one is 50MM.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would the 4-16 be the right move.? Should I be considering Hensoldt? </div></div>
Maybe.....here's one of each. I like them both. The Hensoldt is shorter and more compact and has a 56MM objective. The S&B's objective comes in 42 or 50....this one is 50MM.
Re: Nice optic
For 100-300 the 4-16 is plenty of magnification, you don't really even need that much, however if you plan on shooting farther distances in the future go with the higher mag.
For 100-300 the 4-16 is plenty of magnification, you don't really even need that much, however if you plan on shooting farther distances in the future go with the higher mag.
Re: Nice optic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought they only had 3-12, 4-16, 3-20 and 5-25 </div></div>
There is also the new PMII 12.5-50X, but you are correct in that there is no PMII 3-15X - only a 3-12X.
For the distance you are planning to shoot I would get either the 3-20X (50mm) 50 or the 5-25X (56mm). If you, your gun, and your ammo are up to it, the higher magnification and a P4F will help you shoot very small groups because of the more precise aiming point. I love my PMII 5-25Xs', but the 3-20X is more compact and lighter than the 5-25X. You cannot go wrong with either though.
Keith
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought they only had 3-12, 4-16, 3-20 and 5-25 </div></div>
There is also the new PMII 12.5-50X, but you are correct in that there is no PMII 3-15X - only a 3-12X.
For the distance you are planning to shoot I would get either the 3-20X (50mm) 50 or the 5-25X (56mm). If you, your gun, and your ammo are up to it, the higher magnification and a P4F will help you shoot very small groups because of the more precise aiming point. I love my PMII 5-25Xs', but the 3-20X is more compact and lighter than the 5-25X. You cannot go wrong with either though.
Keith
Re: Nice optic
Honestly at the range you are talking about I don't know if there is a difference, personally I love SB's and would try to find a well priced used one (people are selling them) I personally like SB cause of the reticules (like the P4f first the GEN II and P3) and there great clairty
Honestly at the range you are talking about I don't know if there is a difference, personally I love SB's and would try to find a well priced used one (people are selling them) I personally like SB cause of the reticules (like the P4f first the GEN II and P3) and there great clairty
Re: Nice optic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is it about the Premier that makes it lacking versus the S&B? I can get a Premier 5.5-25 for 2690. </div></div>
I wouldn't say that <span style="font-style: italic">"the Premier is lacking versus the S & B"</span>. Each of the two has, for lack of better terms - <span style="font-style: italic">"strengths and weaknesses"</span> which, based upon your preferences and shooting style may or may not a strength or weakness at all or sway you to one scope over the other. I have never been in the military or LE, nor am I an optical engineer or otherwise an expert in glass or coatings. I do know superior machining and can differentiate hype from fact based on experience. I don't beat on my stuff, but my most of my guns aren't safe queens either.
I prefer the PMII over the Premier, but that doesn't mean you will. Your preference of one over the other - if you actually develop a preference, will depend largely upon the weight you give to the features, strengths, and weaknesses that the scopes have or don't have over the other. And, some of these "strengths" and "weaknesses" are subjective - based upon <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> preferences and shooting style, a feature or lack of it may or may not be a strength or weakness at all. My preference is based on my comparisons and observations below.
That said, being the former owner of a Premier Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR MTC and the current of two (2) PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR CCWs' I do have a layman's insight directly related to the "S & B PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR vs. Premier Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR" question. While owning and using two PMIIs' and one Premier and playing with others is not necessarily representative of the respective scope lines <span style="font-style: italic">en masse</span> my comments and observations about my particular samples should be useful to others who do not have the benefit of using these two great scopes side-by-side firsthand.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Features/characteristics common between my S & B PMII 5-25X DT CM LP Gen 2 XR CCWs' and Premier Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR MTC (CCW):</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Build Quality -</span>
Both are built for rugged use and dependability. As I said I don't purposefully beat on my stuff, so although I can and do "box test" my scopes for accuracy and repeatability of adjustments more than likely I'll never have to warranty either one. S & B scopes have a proven track record for durability, although anything can break. "Production" Premier 5-25Xs' have only been out for a couple of years so they don't have the long track record that the PMII has. That said, I have no doubt that they will be proven very durable by those in the field in harm's way. Those are the tests that really matter.
<span style="font-weight: bold">PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR and Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR Reticles -</span>
Although the measurements and subtensions are identical between the two scopes <span style="font-style: italic">on paper</span>, when you look through the two scopes the reticles appear quite different. The reticle of the Heritage appears heavier and stands-out more, and the reticle also looks distinctly "more "black" (and thus easier to see) compared to the PMII. If the only difference between the reticles was the darker, blacker appearance of the Heritage Gen 2 XR might chock it up to better glass coatings and/or more efficient baffles inside the tube, but its’ more than that - as if the reticle is etched differently. As I am comparing the Gen 2 XR-equipped PMII 5-25X and the Gen 2 XR-equipped Premier 5-25X and both have a 5:1 zoom ratio, I have to wonder how close the <span style="font-style: italic">actual</span> magnifications are to the stated magnifications as well as how accurate the marked magnifications on the ocular housings are. This might play a part in the apparent visual differences. I would definitely notice a difference in reticle and image size between the two if a magnification discrepancy was indeed the cause of the visual differences. The reticles subtend the sameand are the same apparent size when the magnifications are matched. Weird.
I had old Premier PDFs' of the 4-16X and 5-25X PMII Gen 2 XR (at 15X) and I compared the subtensions and measurements to PDFs' of the Heritage 3-15X and 5-25X (at 15X) that I had pulled off the web previously. The subtensions and measurements were identical between the two Heritage Gen 2 XR scopes, with the line widths being thicker than on the PMIIs'. At 17X, my GAP reticle was slightly more coarse at 17X than the PMII at 17X but slightly less coarse than the Heritage at 17X (again, the PMII and Heritage 5-25Xs' are supposed to be the same). The GAP schematic is spec’d at .1 MOA/2.65938mms' at 100 yards, compared to 0.025 MIL/0.075"/2.28600mm for both the Heritage and PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XRs'.
I PM'ed <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">JerryR</span></span> (Jerry Ricker), who at that time worked at Premier, and asked him about the subtensions and measurements of the Heritage 5-25X compared to the PMII 5-25X, explaining that the Heritage vertical and horizontal line widths "look thicker". Jerry emailed me, sending me an updated PDF of the Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR. The Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR PDF Jerry sent me has identical specs to the PMII 4-16X and 5-25X Gen 2 XR.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Features/characteristics specific between my S & B PMII 5-25X DT CM LP Gen 2 XR CCWs' and Premier Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR MTC:</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">S & B PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR DT CM LP CCW</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Clarity -</span></span>
<span style="font-style: italic">At times and to my eyes</span>, as excellent as my PMII 5-25X is, the Heritage 5-25X appears to have a very slight edge in both resolution and color rendition. Not a huge difference, but <span style="font-style: italic">very slightly</span> better than my PMII in both). Edge-to-edge they seem equal.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Field of View -</span> </span>
I have seen people mention that the PMII's FOV is restricted at low power (when you dial down to 5X, a black ring is visible around the image) and this ring doesn't go away until magnification is increased. On my scopes the ring completely disappears by 6.5X <span style="font-style: italic">while the full FOV is realized by 7X.</span> I don't worry about this, as I rarely dial below 10X anyway but some take issue with the "tunneling".
<span style="font-weight: bold">ADJUSTMENTS - </span>
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Turrets</span></span>
The PMII's clicks are very solid and definite, without the slightest hint of mushiness. However, since the PMII lacks a MTC ("More Tactile Click") option (each full MIL has a heavier detent) all the clicks feel the same and you have to look at the dial or count clicks. In this sense, adjustments must be done carefully and deliberately in order to avoid under or over-shooting your desired setting. An MTC would allow you to crank the full MILs fast, then slow down when you get close. S & B also offers the MTC on the PMII 5-25X (LP / MTC and LP / MTC / LT models), as well as a retrofit on non-MTC 5-25Xs'.
The Elevation and Windage knobs turn easily and smoothly, with what I consider perfect resistance - not too stiff but not too easy to turn. Some might consider them too easy-to-turn in the field.
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Parallax Knob</span></span>
The Parallax knob turns easily and smoothly, with a what is IMHO just the right amount of resistance. CCW rotation (you turn the knob "away from you" to focus on distant objects, and turn the knob toward you to focus on closer objects). The Parallax Knob has distances marked in Meters, with numbers at <span style="font-style: italic">"10"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"15"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"20"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"30"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"50"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"100"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"200"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"300"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"500"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"800"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"1000"</span>, and <span style="font-style: italic">"Infinity"</span>. As most of the ranges here in the U.S. are setup in yards, I just turn the Parallax Knob a little short of the indicated distance in meters and it gets me very close. A quick look through the scope for fine-tuning and you're GTG. There is a definite advantage here over the Premier's Parallax Knob, which has no distance markings, so there is no visual indicator of the distance at which the parallax is set to, requiring the shooter to look through the scope, figure-out which direction to turn the knob, then turn the Parallax Knob the appropriate direction to focus.
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Illumination</span></span>
The Illumination rheostat is located in a separate housing on the LH side of the tube, just forward of the Ocular Bell, and has 11 settings plus "O"/Off. The settings are marked 0-11. Turning the illumination Knob CCW <span style="font-style: italic">(away from you)</span> increases the intensity of the illumination (unlike on the Heritage, where the illumination increases in a CW direction).
There are two things I dislike about the PMII's Illumination adjustment: (1), the rheostat's location on the tube reduces the amount of space available for the rear ring, and (2) the rheostat must be turned from "0"/"Off" to the desired setting (there is no "off" position between each intensity setting). Turning the illumination dial to between any one of the numbered settings will actually turn-off the illumination, thus conserving battery power, but his is risky as the knob turns easily between the setting detents and could accidently be turned back on). At best, you could drain your CR2032 battery. At worst, operators could give away their position to the bad guys.
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Diopter Setting</span></span>
The Diopter Setting is rubber-covered, so it provides some protection from high-recoiling calibers if you don't leave a lens cover on the ocular while shooting. The adjustment is stiff-to-turn, which is as it should be. The stiff setting means you won't alter the setting with a bump or by flipping open the cover.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Premier Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR:</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Clarity -</span></span>
As I mentioned above, <span style="font-style: italic">to my eyes</span>, as excellent as my PMII 5-25X is, my Heritage 5-25X appears to have a very slight edge in both resolution and color rendition. Not a huge difference, but <span style="font-style: italic">very slightly</span> better than my PMII in both). Edge-to-edge they seem equal.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Field of View -</span> </span>
For the most part, my Heritage 5-25X does not exhibit this "problem". I say, <span style="font-style: italic">"for the most part"</span> because the way the ocular housing is timed the "5" doesn't line-up exactly. The magnification needs to be turned very slightly higher than the 5X stop, or else a ring will also be seen. Again, I don't worry about this, as I rarely dial below 10X anyway.
<span style="font-weight: bold">ADJUSTMENTS - </span>
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Turrets</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">NOTE:</span></span> The turrets on early production Heritage scopes had "soft", rather mushy and indefinite clicks. Because of this, adjustments had to be done carefully and deliberately in order to dial your desired setting because sometimes you couldn't feel the clicks. <span style="font-weight: bold">Premier solved this problem well over a year ago, so if you see comments about mushy clicks on a Premier it is probably an older scope that never had the upgraded parts installed or it is an old post.</span> I've played with a bunch more Premier 3-15Xs' and 5-25Xs' at the range, at the SHOT Show, and on some new Tac Ops rifles (<span style="font-style: italic">Carter Mayfield</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">TYB422</span>, and others) and the clicks and the MIL "clunks" were all very sharp and positive.
The Heritage is available with a "MTC" (More Tactile Click) option (each full MIL has a heavier detent), allowing you to dial in complete darkness. You can crank the full MILs fast, then slow down when you get close. The MTC feature of the Heritage is really cool for adjusting full MILs' without looking. The "MTC" is a very cool option. As I mentioned above S & B also offers the MTC on the PMII 5-25X (LP / MTC and LP / MTC / LT models), as well as a retrofit on non-MTC 5-25Xs'.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Toolless Re-zeroing</span></span>
Very cool feature to have - just flip the toggle up and over, set the knob where desired, and flip the toggle back down and you're set (unlike the PMII turrets which require a small screwdriver to loosen/tighten two screws that secure the turrets to the erector assembly). No tools needed and no screws to lose!
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Parallax Knob</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">NOTE:</span></span> The Parallax Knob on Premier scopes used to be devoid of any rotation direction and distance indicators, but Premier is now marking the Parallax Knob with a "ramp" to indicate rotation direction. There still aren't any distance markings but the new Parallax Knob is an improvement over the previous unit. Premier will also retrofit the Parallax Knob on scopes with the unmarked knob at the owner's expense.
The Parallax knob turns easily and smoothly, and is slightly stiffer than on my PMIIs'. As on my CCW PMII 5-25X, CCW rotation (turning the knob "away from you" focuses on distant objects, and turning the knob toward you to focuses on closer objects).
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Illumination</span></span>
The Illumination rheostat is ingeniously incorporated into the Parallax Knob Housing, and has 11 settings, plus "0"/Off. The settings are marked 0-11. Turning the illumination Knob CW (towards you increases the intensity of the numbers (unlike on the PMII, where the illumination intensity increases in a CCW direction). I do wish that the illumination rheostat adjusted in a CCW fashion like the other controls.
By incorporating the illumination rheostat into the Parallax housing, Premier has solved one of the things that I dislike about the PMII's illumination rheostat - (losing ring space on the tube). The Heritage's illumination rheostat pulls out of the Parallax housing for use, and stores out of harm's way when not in use. Very Cool. Plus, the rheostat has just the right amount of tension to keep it in whatever position you place it in. This allows you to turn the illumination off between settings without fear of the illumination being bumped back-on. On a two-way range that could be fatal.
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Diopter Setting</span></span>
As on my PMII, the Diopter Setting is stiff-to-turn, which is as it should be. However, the edge is not rubber-coated as on the PMII. The stiff setting means you won't alter the setting with a bump or by flipping open the cover. Something worth noting, is that the diopter adjustment ring is machined to accept Premier's Articulating Lens Cover, and the angle at which the ring is machined doesn't give you a lot to grab onto when adjusting the diopter. This is fine with me, as it helps prevent people from messing with the diopter adjustment.
One last thing I hesitate to say because it sounds rather negative: It is my perception, as well as several others who have handled and/or shot PMIIs' and Premiers' side by side that - as thoughtfully-designed, beautifully-executed, and wonderfully crisp, bright, and clean the Premier is, the PMII just feels <span style="font-style: italic">more refined</span>. Its' an intangible that is best described in that manner.
Keith
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is it about the Premier that makes it lacking versus the S&B? I can get a Premier 5.5-25 for 2690. </div></div>
I wouldn't say that <span style="font-style: italic">"the Premier is lacking versus the S & B"</span>. Each of the two has, for lack of better terms - <span style="font-style: italic">"strengths and weaknesses"</span> which, based upon your preferences and shooting style may or may not a strength or weakness at all or sway you to one scope over the other. I have never been in the military or LE, nor am I an optical engineer or otherwise an expert in glass or coatings. I do know superior machining and can differentiate hype from fact based on experience. I don't beat on my stuff, but my most of my guns aren't safe queens either.
I prefer the PMII over the Premier, but that doesn't mean you will. Your preference of one over the other - if you actually develop a preference, will depend largely upon the weight you give to the features, strengths, and weaknesses that the scopes have or don't have over the other. And, some of these "strengths" and "weaknesses" are subjective - based upon <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> preferences and shooting style, a feature or lack of it may or may not be a strength or weakness at all. My preference is based on my comparisons and observations below.
That said, being the former owner of a Premier Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR MTC and the current of two (2) PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR CCWs' I do have a layman's insight directly related to the "S & B PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR vs. Premier Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR" question. While owning and using two PMIIs' and one Premier and playing with others is not necessarily representative of the respective scope lines <span style="font-style: italic">en masse</span> my comments and observations about my particular samples should be useful to others who do not have the benefit of using these two great scopes side-by-side firsthand.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Features/characteristics common between my S & B PMII 5-25X DT CM LP Gen 2 XR CCWs' and Premier Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR MTC (CCW):</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Build Quality -</span>
Both are built for rugged use and dependability. As I said I don't purposefully beat on my stuff, so although I can and do "box test" my scopes for accuracy and repeatability of adjustments more than likely I'll never have to warranty either one. S & B scopes have a proven track record for durability, although anything can break. "Production" Premier 5-25Xs' have only been out for a couple of years so they don't have the long track record that the PMII has. That said, I have no doubt that they will be proven very durable by those in the field in harm's way. Those are the tests that really matter.
<span style="font-weight: bold">PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR and Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR Reticles -</span>
Although the measurements and subtensions are identical between the two scopes <span style="font-style: italic">on paper</span>, when you look through the two scopes the reticles appear quite different. The reticle of the Heritage appears heavier and stands-out more, and the reticle also looks distinctly "more "black" (and thus easier to see) compared to the PMII. If the only difference between the reticles was the darker, blacker appearance of the Heritage Gen 2 XR might chock it up to better glass coatings and/or more efficient baffles inside the tube, but its’ more than that - as if the reticle is etched differently. As I am comparing the Gen 2 XR-equipped PMII 5-25X and the Gen 2 XR-equipped Premier 5-25X and both have a 5:1 zoom ratio, I have to wonder how close the <span style="font-style: italic">actual</span> magnifications are to the stated magnifications as well as how accurate the marked magnifications on the ocular housings are. This might play a part in the apparent visual differences. I would definitely notice a difference in reticle and image size between the two if a magnification discrepancy was indeed the cause of the visual differences. The reticles subtend the sameand are the same apparent size when the magnifications are matched. Weird.
I had old Premier PDFs' of the 4-16X and 5-25X PMII Gen 2 XR (at 15X) and I compared the subtensions and measurements to PDFs' of the Heritage 3-15X and 5-25X (at 15X) that I had pulled off the web previously. The subtensions and measurements were identical between the two Heritage Gen 2 XR scopes, with the line widths being thicker than on the PMIIs'. At 17X, my GAP reticle was slightly more coarse at 17X than the PMII at 17X but slightly less coarse than the Heritage at 17X (again, the PMII and Heritage 5-25Xs' are supposed to be the same). The GAP schematic is spec’d at .1 MOA/2.65938mms' at 100 yards, compared to 0.025 MIL/0.075"/2.28600mm for both the Heritage and PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XRs'.
I PM'ed <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">JerryR</span></span> (Jerry Ricker), who at that time worked at Premier, and asked him about the subtensions and measurements of the Heritage 5-25X compared to the PMII 5-25X, explaining that the Heritage vertical and horizontal line widths "look thicker". Jerry emailed me, sending me an updated PDF of the Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR. The Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR PDF Jerry sent me has identical specs to the PMII 4-16X and 5-25X Gen 2 XR.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Features/characteristics specific between my S & B PMII 5-25X DT CM LP Gen 2 XR CCWs' and Premier Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR MTC:</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">S & B PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR DT CM LP CCW</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Clarity -</span></span>
<span style="font-style: italic">At times and to my eyes</span>, as excellent as my PMII 5-25X is, the Heritage 5-25X appears to have a very slight edge in both resolution and color rendition. Not a huge difference, but <span style="font-style: italic">very slightly</span> better than my PMII in both). Edge-to-edge they seem equal.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Field of View -</span> </span>
I have seen people mention that the PMII's FOV is restricted at low power (when you dial down to 5X, a black ring is visible around the image) and this ring doesn't go away until magnification is increased. On my scopes the ring completely disappears by 6.5X <span style="font-style: italic">while the full FOV is realized by 7X.</span> I don't worry about this, as I rarely dial below 10X anyway but some take issue with the "tunneling".
<span style="font-weight: bold">ADJUSTMENTS - </span>
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Turrets</span></span>
The PMII's clicks are very solid and definite, without the slightest hint of mushiness. However, since the PMII lacks a MTC ("More Tactile Click") option (each full MIL has a heavier detent) all the clicks feel the same and you have to look at the dial or count clicks. In this sense, adjustments must be done carefully and deliberately in order to avoid under or over-shooting your desired setting. An MTC would allow you to crank the full MILs fast, then slow down when you get close. S & B also offers the MTC on the PMII 5-25X (LP / MTC and LP / MTC / LT models), as well as a retrofit on non-MTC 5-25Xs'.
The Elevation and Windage knobs turn easily and smoothly, with what I consider perfect resistance - not too stiff but not too easy to turn. Some might consider them too easy-to-turn in the field.
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Parallax Knob</span></span>
The Parallax knob turns easily and smoothly, with a what is IMHO just the right amount of resistance. CCW rotation (you turn the knob "away from you" to focus on distant objects, and turn the knob toward you to focus on closer objects). The Parallax Knob has distances marked in Meters, with numbers at <span style="font-style: italic">"10"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"15"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"20"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"30"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"50"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"100"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"200"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"300"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"500"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"800"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"1000"</span>, and <span style="font-style: italic">"Infinity"</span>. As most of the ranges here in the U.S. are setup in yards, I just turn the Parallax Knob a little short of the indicated distance in meters and it gets me very close. A quick look through the scope for fine-tuning and you're GTG. There is a definite advantage here over the Premier's Parallax Knob, which has no distance markings, so there is no visual indicator of the distance at which the parallax is set to, requiring the shooter to look through the scope, figure-out which direction to turn the knob, then turn the Parallax Knob the appropriate direction to focus.
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Illumination</span></span>
The Illumination rheostat is located in a separate housing on the LH side of the tube, just forward of the Ocular Bell, and has 11 settings plus "O"/Off. The settings are marked 0-11. Turning the illumination Knob CCW <span style="font-style: italic">(away from you)</span> increases the intensity of the illumination (unlike on the Heritage, where the illumination increases in a CW direction).
There are two things I dislike about the PMII's Illumination adjustment: (1), the rheostat's location on the tube reduces the amount of space available for the rear ring, and (2) the rheostat must be turned from "0"/"Off" to the desired setting (there is no "off" position between each intensity setting). Turning the illumination dial to between any one of the numbered settings will actually turn-off the illumination, thus conserving battery power, but his is risky as the knob turns easily between the setting detents and could accidently be turned back on). At best, you could drain your CR2032 battery. At worst, operators could give away their position to the bad guys.
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Diopter Setting</span></span>
The Diopter Setting is rubber-covered, so it provides some protection from high-recoiling calibers if you don't leave a lens cover on the ocular while shooting. The adjustment is stiff-to-turn, which is as it should be. The stiff setting means you won't alter the setting with a bump or by flipping open the cover.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Premier Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR:</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Clarity -</span></span>
As I mentioned above, <span style="font-style: italic">to my eyes</span>, as excellent as my PMII 5-25X is, my Heritage 5-25X appears to have a very slight edge in both resolution and color rendition. Not a huge difference, but <span style="font-style: italic">very slightly</span> better than my PMII in both). Edge-to-edge they seem equal.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Field of View -</span> </span>
For the most part, my Heritage 5-25X does not exhibit this "problem". I say, <span style="font-style: italic">"for the most part"</span> because the way the ocular housing is timed the "5" doesn't line-up exactly. The magnification needs to be turned very slightly higher than the 5X stop, or else a ring will also be seen. Again, I don't worry about this, as I rarely dial below 10X anyway.
<span style="font-weight: bold">ADJUSTMENTS - </span>
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Turrets</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">NOTE:</span></span> The turrets on early production Heritage scopes had "soft", rather mushy and indefinite clicks. Because of this, adjustments had to be done carefully and deliberately in order to dial your desired setting because sometimes you couldn't feel the clicks. <span style="font-weight: bold">Premier solved this problem well over a year ago, so if you see comments about mushy clicks on a Premier it is probably an older scope that never had the upgraded parts installed or it is an old post.</span> I've played with a bunch more Premier 3-15Xs' and 5-25Xs' at the range, at the SHOT Show, and on some new Tac Ops rifles (<span style="font-style: italic">Carter Mayfield</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">TYB422</span>, and others) and the clicks and the MIL "clunks" were all very sharp and positive.
The Heritage is available with a "MTC" (More Tactile Click) option (each full MIL has a heavier detent), allowing you to dial in complete darkness. You can crank the full MILs fast, then slow down when you get close. The MTC feature of the Heritage is really cool for adjusting full MILs' without looking. The "MTC" is a very cool option. As I mentioned above S & B also offers the MTC on the PMII 5-25X (LP / MTC and LP / MTC / LT models), as well as a retrofit on non-MTC 5-25Xs'.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Toolless Re-zeroing</span></span>
Very cool feature to have - just flip the toggle up and over, set the knob where desired, and flip the toggle back down and you're set (unlike the PMII turrets which require a small screwdriver to loosen/tighten two screws that secure the turrets to the erector assembly). No tools needed and no screws to lose!
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Parallax Knob</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">NOTE:</span></span> The Parallax Knob on Premier scopes used to be devoid of any rotation direction and distance indicators, but Premier is now marking the Parallax Knob with a "ramp" to indicate rotation direction. There still aren't any distance markings but the new Parallax Knob is an improvement over the previous unit. Premier will also retrofit the Parallax Knob on scopes with the unmarked knob at the owner's expense.
The Parallax knob turns easily and smoothly, and is slightly stiffer than on my PMIIs'. As on my CCW PMII 5-25X, CCW rotation (turning the knob "away from you" focuses on distant objects, and turning the knob toward you to focuses on closer objects).
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Illumination</span></span>
The Illumination rheostat is ingeniously incorporated into the Parallax Knob Housing, and has 11 settings, plus "0"/Off. The settings are marked 0-11. Turning the illumination Knob CW (towards you increases the intensity of the numbers (unlike on the PMII, where the illumination intensity increases in a CCW direction). I do wish that the illumination rheostat adjusted in a CCW fashion like the other controls.
By incorporating the illumination rheostat into the Parallax housing, Premier has solved one of the things that I dislike about the PMII's illumination rheostat - (losing ring space on the tube). The Heritage's illumination rheostat pulls out of the Parallax housing for use, and stores out of harm's way when not in use. Very Cool. Plus, the rheostat has just the right amount of tension to keep it in whatever position you place it in. This allows you to turn the illumination off between settings without fear of the illumination being bumped back-on. On a two-way range that could be fatal.
<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Diopter Setting</span></span>
As on my PMII, the Diopter Setting is stiff-to-turn, which is as it should be. However, the edge is not rubber-coated as on the PMII. The stiff setting means you won't alter the setting with a bump or by flipping open the cover. Something worth noting, is that the diopter adjustment ring is machined to accept Premier's Articulating Lens Cover, and the angle at which the ring is machined doesn't give you a lot to grab onto when adjusting the diopter. This is fine with me, as it helps prevent people from messing with the diopter adjustment.
One last thing I hesitate to say because it sounds rather negative: It is my perception, as well as several others who have handled and/or shot PMIIs' and Premiers' side by side that - as thoughtfully-designed, beautifully-executed, and wonderfully crisp, bright, and clean the Premier is, the PMII just feels <span style="font-style: italic">more refined</span>. Its' an intangible that is best described in that manner.
Keith
Re: Nice optic
That's amazing Keith. Great explanation. Kind of left me with the impression that both are great and I can't go wrong. I'm such a newb that I'm thinking I should pick up whatever I can find cheaper. The USO looks nice too but these 2 seem to be a step above the more I research.
That's amazing Keith. Great explanation. Kind of left me with the impression that both are great and I can't go wrong. I'm such a newb that I'm thinking I should pick up whatever I can find cheaper. The USO looks nice too but these 2 seem to be a step above the more I research.
Re: Nice optic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's amazing Keith. Great explanation. Kind of left me with the impression that both are great and I can't go wrong. I'm such a newb that I'm thinking I should pick up whatever I can find cheaper. The USO looks nice too but these 2 seem to be a step above the more I research. </div></div>
You're welcome. The Premier and PMII are both great scopes and either will serve you well. If you base your buying decision based on price the Premier will win out since you mentioned that you can pick-up a Premier 5-25X for $2,690.00. In order to buy a new PMII 5-25X LP / MTC or PMII 5-25X LP / MTC / LT even if you get a great deal you're looking at around $2,900.00-$3,000.00.
I also owned and shot with a USO SN-3 3.2-17X 44mm ERGO Low Profile with a 35mm tube, 0.1 MIL EREK Elevation, 0.1 MIL LH US#3 M40 Windage Knob, and Green GAP reticle. It was also a great scope - perfect tracking, excellent clarity, and built like a tank. The USO is a <span style="font-style: italic">true customizable</span> scope configurable with tons of great options like the EREK Knob and is U.S.-made and serviced. I love the EREK Knob and IMHO it is the single greatest option USO offers on their scopes.
Since you brought it up, it is also my opinion that S & B and Premier are a step above USO. My concern with USO is that USO's QC is spotty - some USO scopes have great clarity and are built right the first time, while the clarity and mechanicals of others aren't commensurate with a high-end scope and mechanical problems require several trips back to USO before the scope is "right". If and when USO solves the QC problem and consistently builds mechanically sound scopes with perfect clarity <span style="font-style: italic">the first time</span> I would change my opinion. I would love to see this happen, as John Williams, III and his crew at USO are great people and I want to see them thrive. Competition also drives innovation.
This is not to say that Premier and S & B have never had a problem with a scope out of the box or go dead - Premier scopes had teething problems but that is to be expected with a fledgling scope <span style="font-style: italic">manufacturer.</span> From what I've seen, Premier has stepped-up and taken care of mechanical issues as they've been ferretted-out. As for S & B, its' rare that you see posts about one going down, but it does happen. The only "problems" I've seen posted about new PMIIs' have been noobish posts by inept, inexperienced users who can't be bothered to read the PMII User Manual.
Keith
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's amazing Keith. Great explanation. Kind of left me with the impression that both are great and I can't go wrong. I'm such a newb that I'm thinking I should pick up whatever I can find cheaper. The USO looks nice too but these 2 seem to be a step above the more I research. </div></div>
You're welcome. The Premier and PMII are both great scopes and either will serve you well. If you base your buying decision based on price the Premier will win out since you mentioned that you can pick-up a Premier 5-25X for $2,690.00. In order to buy a new PMII 5-25X LP / MTC or PMII 5-25X LP / MTC / LT even if you get a great deal you're looking at around $2,900.00-$3,000.00.
I also owned and shot with a USO SN-3 3.2-17X 44mm ERGO Low Profile with a 35mm tube, 0.1 MIL EREK Elevation, 0.1 MIL LH US#3 M40 Windage Knob, and Green GAP reticle. It was also a great scope - perfect tracking, excellent clarity, and built like a tank. The USO is a <span style="font-style: italic">true customizable</span> scope configurable with tons of great options like the EREK Knob and is U.S.-made and serviced. I love the EREK Knob and IMHO it is the single greatest option USO offers on their scopes.
Since you brought it up, it is also my opinion that S & B and Premier are a step above USO. My concern with USO is that USO's QC is spotty - some USO scopes have great clarity and are built right the first time, while the clarity and mechanicals of others aren't commensurate with a high-end scope and mechanical problems require several trips back to USO before the scope is "right". If and when USO solves the QC problem and consistently builds mechanically sound scopes with perfect clarity <span style="font-style: italic">the first time</span> I would change my opinion. I would love to see this happen, as John Williams, III and his crew at USO are great people and I want to see them thrive. Competition also drives innovation.
This is not to say that Premier and S & B have never had a problem with a scope out of the box or go dead - Premier scopes had teething problems but that is to be expected with a fledgling scope <span style="font-style: italic">manufacturer.</span> From what I've seen, Premier has stepped-up and taken care of mechanical issues as they've been ferretted-out. As for S & B, its' rare that you see posts about one going down, but it does happen. The only "problems" I've seen posted about new PMIIs' have been noobish posts by inept, inexperienced users who can't be bothered to read the PMII User Manual.
Keith
Re: Nice optic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's amazing Keith. Great explanation. Kind of left me with the impression that both are great and I can't go wrong. I'm such a newb that I'm thinking I should pick up whatever I can find cheaper. The USO looks nice too but these 2 seem to be a step above the more I research. </div></div>
you are spot on you can't go wrong with either premier or s&b. i have owned both also and they are both fantastic. i currently only still ahve the s&b but it didn't win out by much.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's amazing Keith. Great explanation. Kind of left me with the impression that both are great and I can't go wrong. I'm such a newb that I'm thinking I should pick up whatever I can find cheaper. The USO looks nice too but these 2 seem to be a step above the more I research. </div></div>
you are spot on you can't go wrong with either premier or s&b. i have owned both also and they are both fantastic. i currently only still ahve the s&b but it didn't win out by much.
Re: Nice optic
One last thing and it may be a step backwards: if I sell the AR to my friend, itll be just enough for a Nightforce 5.5-22, base and rings and my scope situation would be solved. I have to choose between that and starting save for my rifle or saving another $600-$1000 for a S&B and then save for the rifle. What makes more sense shooting for groups 100-300 yards for a beginner?
One last thing and it may be a step backwards: if I sell the AR to my friend, itll be just enough for a Nightforce 5.5-22, base and rings and my scope situation would be solved. I have to choose between that and starting save for my rifle or saving another $600-$1000 for a S&B and then save for the rifle. What makes more sense shooting for groups 100-300 yards for a beginner?
Re: Nice optic
Originally Posted By: newyork: Would the 4-16 be the right move.? Should I be considering Hensoldt?
I recently purchased a a Hensoldt, 4-16x56 FF scope. It is in transit to me from EuroOptics. Between Schmidt and Bender and Hensoldt you are really down to the best of the best. It really comes down to personal preferences. I wanted a larger objective lens for twilight hunting, also I like the illumination rheostat located on the erector housing thus allowing more room for ring placement. As far as lens clarity/quality most of the reviews I have read have favored the Hensoldt. However, both are easy on the eyes. I am older and wear glasses so the easier the lens is on my eyes the better.
Originally Posted By: newyork: Would the 4-16 be the right move.? Should I be considering Hensoldt?
I recently purchased a a Hensoldt, 4-16x56 FF scope. It is in transit to me from EuroOptics. Between Schmidt and Bender and Hensoldt you are really down to the best of the best. It really comes down to personal preferences. I wanted a larger objective lens for twilight hunting, also I like the illumination rheostat located on the erector housing thus allowing more room for ring placement. As far as lens clarity/quality most of the reviews I have read have favored the Hensoldt. However, both are easy on the eyes. I am older and wear glasses so the easier the lens is on my eyes the better.
Re: Nice optic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One last thing and it may be a step backwards: if I sell the AR to my friend, itll be just enough for a Nightforce 5.5-22, base and rings and my scope situation would be solved. I have to choose between that and starting save for my rifle or saving another $600-$1000 for a S&B and then save for the rifle. What makes more sense shooting for groups 100-300 yards for a beginner?</div></div>
You already have a nice optic it sounds like with the Nightforce. The only thing you are going to be gaining with the S&B or Premier is better glass and possibly FFP if your Nightforce doesn't have that already. If you don't have a nice precision bolt rifle, I would say get that first and put your Nightforce on there and start practicing. Once you have mastered or out-grown your gear, then you can move up to the S&B or Premier. If you get the scope first, it's just going to sit in the safe and wait for you to save up to buy the rifle. That would be putting the chicken before the egg IMHO.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One last thing and it may be a step backwards: if I sell the AR to my friend, itll be just enough for a Nightforce 5.5-22, base and rings and my scope situation would be solved. I have to choose between that and starting save for my rifle or saving another $600-$1000 for a S&B and then save for the rifle. What makes more sense shooting for groups 100-300 yards for a beginner?</div></div>
You already have a nice optic it sounds like with the Nightforce. The only thing you are going to be gaining with the S&B or Premier is better glass and possibly FFP if your Nightforce doesn't have that already. If you don't have a nice precision bolt rifle, I would say get that first and put your Nightforce on there and start practicing. Once you have mastered or out-grown your gear, then you can move up to the S&B or Premier. If you get the scope first, it's just going to sit in the safe and wait for you to save up to buy the rifle. That would be putting the chicken before the egg IMHO.
Re: Nice optic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One last thing and it may be a step backwards: if I sell the AR to my friend, itll be just enough for a Nightforce 5.5-22, base and rings and my scope situation would be solved. I have to choose between that and starting save for my rifle or saving another $600-$1000 for a S&B and then save for the rifle. What makes more sense shooting for groups 100-300 yards for a beginner? </div></div>
You do realize that the Nightforce 5.5-22X is a SFP (Second Focal Plane) scope, right? If so there are two ways to look at the situation: The first way is to consider that the Nightforce 5.5-22X is a very nice scope and it is itself more than you need for shooting only 100-300 yards. Good clarity, excellent reticle options, solid positive clicks, great Customer Service, and <span style="font-style: italic">"Made in USA"</span> (bonus). I don't know if it matters to you, but for me I also like the satisfaction of selling stuff to friends and/or relatives whom I know will use, but still take care of my old toys. I like knowing that I helped a friend and kept my old toys within my shooting family. And you could buy a factory rifle and shoot now to begin developing your shooting skills with the bolt gun. This is the more "logical" path for a beginner.
The other way to look at it is that while the NXS 5.5-22X is a nice scope and it may be more than you'll ever want or need to to 300 yards and beyond, if it is not your first choice are you going to regret buying it in favor of the PMII or Premier, which are more expensive but are FFP and are on another level completely. Unless you are talking about a high-end and/or custom rifle, rifles come and go and are frequently stepping stones to your "ultimate" rifle. However, a high-end scope is a tool that if carefully chosen, can last a lifetime and be transferable to another rifle and/or caliber if and when such time comes along. You can still sell the AR to your friend, and the proceeds will give you a nice chunk of the money needed for the PMII or the Premier. when you buy the scope you will have a scope that you will not have to sell to upgrade later. The problem is you are still without the bolt gun.
BTW, in a PMII 5-25X look at the P4F reticle, as PMIIs' with Gen 2 XRs' are no longer available new, and the going rate on them is $3,400.00+ with CW (Clockwise) turrets, and more ($3,500.00+) for CCW (Counter Clockwise) turrets.
For the Premier 5-25X the Gen 2 XR is a no-brainer. Hensoldt is out because while it's standard Mildot reticle works great for tactical shooting and steel it is too coarse for really fine precision, as are the P3 and P4 in the PMII and the Gen 2 Mildot in the Premier.
Keith
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One last thing and it may be a step backwards: if I sell the AR to my friend, itll be just enough for a Nightforce 5.5-22, base and rings and my scope situation would be solved. I have to choose between that and starting save for my rifle or saving another $600-$1000 for a S&B and then save for the rifle. What makes more sense shooting for groups 100-300 yards for a beginner? </div></div>
You do realize that the Nightforce 5.5-22X is a SFP (Second Focal Plane) scope, right? If so there are two ways to look at the situation: The first way is to consider that the Nightforce 5.5-22X is a very nice scope and it is itself more than you need for shooting only 100-300 yards. Good clarity, excellent reticle options, solid positive clicks, great Customer Service, and <span style="font-style: italic">"Made in USA"</span> (bonus). I don't know if it matters to you, but for me I also like the satisfaction of selling stuff to friends and/or relatives whom I know will use, but still take care of my old toys. I like knowing that I helped a friend and kept my old toys within my shooting family. And you could buy a factory rifle and shoot now to begin developing your shooting skills with the bolt gun. This is the more "logical" path for a beginner.
The other way to look at it is that while the NXS 5.5-22X is a nice scope and it may be more than you'll ever want or need to to 300 yards and beyond, if it is not your first choice are you going to regret buying it in favor of the PMII or Premier, which are more expensive but are FFP and are on another level completely. Unless you are talking about a high-end and/or custom rifle, rifles come and go and are frequently stepping stones to your "ultimate" rifle. However, a high-end scope is a tool that if carefully chosen, can last a lifetime and be transferable to another rifle and/or caliber if and when such time comes along. You can still sell the AR to your friend, and the proceeds will give you a nice chunk of the money needed for the PMII or the Premier. when you buy the scope you will have a scope that you will not have to sell to upgrade later. The problem is you are still without the bolt gun.
BTW, in a PMII 5-25X look at the P4F reticle, as PMIIs' with Gen 2 XRs' are no longer available new, and the going rate on them is $3,400.00+ with CW (Clockwise) turrets, and more ($3,500.00+) for CCW (Counter Clockwise) turrets.
For the Premier 5-25X the Gen 2 XR is a no-brainer. Hensoldt is out because while it's standard Mildot reticle works great for tactical shooting and steel it is too coarse for really fine precision, as are the P3 and P4 in the PMII and the Gen 2 Mildot in the Premier.
Keith
Re: Nice optic
Ive been thinking is either get a 700 SPS and drop it in a Manners with a chassis. sounds like a decent start. My concern about spending $3000 on a scope is, is have nothing left for a rifle. A NF 5.5-22 or 3.5-15 would be nice for a beginner precision shooter but you're right, I would always long for the next level as I always do with guns. what's the better trade off? Having nice glass and a decent rifle or great glass and no rifle? I'm getting married in September and sneaking these multi-thousand dollar builds will not be possible for quite some time after the fact as I sneak all these purchases now.
Ive been thinking is either get a 700 SPS and drop it in a Manners with a chassis. sounds like a decent start. My concern about spending $3000 on a scope is, is have nothing left for a rifle. A NF 5.5-22 or 3.5-15 would be nice for a beginner precision shooter but you're right, I would always long for the next level as I always do with guns. what's the better trade off? Having nice glass and a decent rifle or great glass and no rifle? I'm getting married in September and sneaking these multi-thousand dollar builds will not be possible for quite some time after the fact as I sneak all these purchases now.
Re: Nice optic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive been thinking is either get a 700 SPS and drop it in a Manners with a chassis. sounds like a decent start. My concern about spending $3000 on a scope is, is have nothing left for a rifle. A NF 5.5-22 or 3.5-15 would be nice for a beginner precision shooter but you're right, I would always long for the next level as I always do with guns. what's the better trade off? Having nice glass and a decent rifle or great glass and no rifle? I'm getting married in September and sneaking these multi-thousand dollar builds will not be possible for quite some time after the fact as I sneak all these purchases now.
</div></div>
I would go with the 700 SPS, sell the TupperWare stock for whatever you can, and drop the (barreled) action in a Manners or McMillan stock along with the Nightforce. That way you have a rifle to shoot and build skills with. You can always use the action for a custom build or sell the rifle and/or Nightforce down the road, if and when the time comes.
Keith
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ive been thinking is either get a 700 SPS and drop it in a Manners with a chassis. sounds like a decent start. My concern about spending $3000 on a scope is, is have nothing left for a rifle. A NF 5.5-22 or 3.5-15 would be nice for a beginner precision shooter but you're right, I would always long for the next level as I always do with guns. what's the better trade off? Having nice glass and a decent rifle or great glass and no rifle? I'm getting married in September and sneaking these multi-thousand dollar builds will not be possible for quite some time after the fact as I sneak all these purchases now.
I would go with the 700 SPS, sell the TupperWare stock for whatever you can, and drop the (barreled) action in a Manners or McMillan stock along with the Nightforce. That way you have a rifle to shoot and build skills with. You can always use the action for a custom build or sell the rifle and/or Nightforce down the road, if and when the time comes.
Keith
Re: Nice optic
The smartest thing to do, and I'm sure you don't want to hear this, is to sell off the NF and buy a used Super Sniper 10x for $250 and spend the $$ on ammo and join the Snipers Hide Online Training.
The nicest gear in the world will never make up for lack of training. If you are only shooting 100-300 yards the fixed power SS will do everything you need to do. Shoot a few 1000 rounds and then you will know what features you really need on a scope.
Anyway, another big advantage, to me, on the PH vs. S&B 5-25 is the S&B focuses down to 10 meters vs. 50 on the PH. It lets you shoot those close range shots that many comps have now.
The smartest thing to do, and I'm sure you don't want to hear this, is to sell off the NF and buy a used Super Sniper 10x for $250 and spend the $$ on ammo and join the Snipers Hide Online Training.
The nicest gear in the world will never make up for lack of training. If you are only shooting 100-300 yards the fixed power SS will do everything you need to do. Shoot a few 1000 rounds and then you will know what features you really need on a scope.
Anyway, another big advantage, to me, on the PH vs. S&B 5-25 is the S&B focuses down to 10 meters vs. 50 on the PH. It lets you shoot those close range shots that many comps have now.
Re: Nice optic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keith, some NF's are made in the USA, but I don't believe the 5-22's are. </div></div>
You know, I think you may be right. Not to get off-track, but personally - I really don't care where a product is made - I buy what suits my needs and/or wants, and if a product happens to be made outside the U.S. so be it. While I would like to <span style="font-style: italic">"Buy American"</span> and do so when an American-made item fits happens to be exactly what I want, I don't believe in buying something just because its' made in the U.S. That applies to cars and everything else. Now back on topic...
Keith
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keith, some NF's are made in the USA, but I don't believe the 5-22's are. </div></div>
You know, I think you may be right. Not to get off-track, but personally - I really don't care where a product is made - I buy what suits my needs and/or wants, and if a product happens to be made outside the U.S. so be it. While I would like to <span style="font-style: italic">"Buy American"</span> and do so when an American-made item fits happens to be exactly what I want, I don't believe in buying something just because its' made in the U.S. That applies to cars and everything else. Now back on topic...
Keith
Re: Nice optic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure if it matters but if I needed to go ffp, I could choose the NF F1 series. </div></div>
True, but an F1 is also a $2,200.00 scope, although the price does include UltraLite rings. I thought you were looking at the 5.5-22X because of the lower price point ($1,700.00ish). My bad.
Keith
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: newyork</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure if it matters but if I needed to go ffp, I could choose the NF F1 series. </div></div>
True, but an F1 is also a $2,200.00 scope, although the price does include UltraLite rings. I thought you were looking at the 5.5-22X because of the lower price point ($1,700.00ish). My bad.
Keith
Re: Nice optic
Value for money the Premier wins. The new generation of scopes seem to have ironed out the gremlins that plagued the first wave of products. Plus you have solid post-sales service from the likes of Paul to see you right should you notice anything awry.
I personally really like the extra chunky turrets and the clicks are as perfect as you could want. They give nothing up to S&B IMHO. Also they have a more forgiving sight picture in regards to being able to see you target when you're off center.
Having said that, the new reticles by S&B and the capability to get the MSR reticle is pretty compelling.
All that said, when I compared my Hensoldt to the makes above I realized the gaps between them were a lot closer than I thought (and liked) but I was still happy with my choice.
Good luck.
Value for money the Premier wins. The new generation of scopes seem to have ironed out the gremlins that plagued the first wave of products. Plus you have solid post-sales service from the likes of Paul to see you right should you notice anything awry.
I personally really like the extra chunky turrets and the clicks are as perfect as you could want. They give nothing up to S&B IMHO. Also they have a more forgiving sight picture in regards to being able to see you target when you're off center.
Having said that, the new reticles by S&B and the capability to get the MSR reticle is pretty compelling.
All that said, when I compared my Hensoldt to the makes above I realized the gaps between them were a lot closer than I thought (and liked) but I was still happy with my choice.
Good luck.
Re: Nice optic
I'm not selling the NF as it is for a totally different gun. An accurized AR. The SS might be a good starter for a bolt but I want better and more magnification.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hellbender</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The smartest thing to do, and I'm sure you
don't want to hear this, is to sell off the NF and buy a used Super Sniper 10x for $250 and spend the $$ on ammo and join the Snipers Hide Online Training.
The nicest gear in the world will never make up for lack of training. If you are only shooting 100-300 yards the fixed power SS will do everything you need to do. Shoot a few 1000 rounds and then you will know what features you really need on a scope.
Anyway, another big advantage, to me, on the PH vs. S&B 5-25 is the S&B focuses down to 10 meters vs. 50 on the PH. It lets you shoot those close range shots that many comps have now. </div></div>
I'm not selling the NF as it is for a totally different gun. An accurized AR. The SS might be a good starter for a bolt but I want better and more magnification.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hellbender</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The smartest thing to do, and I'm sure you
don't want to hear this, is to sell off the NF and buy a used Super Sniper 10x for $250 and spend the $$ on ammo and join the Snipers Hide Online Training.
The nicest gear in the world will never make up for lack of training. If you are only shooting 100-300 yards the fixed power SS will do everything you need to do. Shoot a few 1000 rounds and then you will know what features you really need on a scope.
Anyway, another big advantage, to me, on the PH vs. S&B 5-25 is the S&B focuses down to 10 meters vs. 50 on the PH. It lets you shoot those close range shots that many comps have now. </div></div>
Re: Nice optic
I have recently been transitioning all of my glass over to the PST's because they are amazing optics, period(best value aside, IMO). And do more than I need from a scope, and at an amazing ~$850.
That said, I am coming over from S&B scopes but owned both a 3-15 and 5-25 PH back when they had the really good pricing, not long after being introduced.
My opinion is that they are both phenomenal tools. I loved the GenII XR I had in one of the Premiers (as well as on one of the PMII's) but after extended use I think I actually preferred the P4f as I tried to teach myself to range and for general use spotting for myself and others.
They both just ooze quality, and you dont feel ripped off after dropping that huge chunk of money for a rifle scope. Especially after the price increase on the Premier's.
Glass is awesome overkill, meaning, for me, it is magnitudes better than what I need, but still just amazing glass for sure.
The things feel like they are armored trucks, tough as hell.
Not really much not to like about either if you are choosing that class of glass.
When it was all said and done I found that the PMII's were my favorite of the bunch and preferred them over the PH.
If I hadnt decided it was just smarter for me to focus on value, I would have stayed with the Schmidt instead of going for the PST's. But, I decided to put that extra money into other platforms and accessories and ammo.
All that said, you are basically deciding between Ferrari's and Lambo's, but if going for the highest end of elite scopes, you may as well consider the Hensoldt's as well.
Cant lose.
ETA- I forgot to mention, but if you are really not going to be shooting past short range, You are buying backhoe for a job a shovel can do. I would look at the lower power, more compact scopes. The 4-16 and 5-25 type optics are just a ton of mag for that short range. I would consider all options.
I have recently been transitioning all of my glass over to the PST's because they are amazing optics, period(best value aside, IMO). And do more than I need from a scope, and at an amazing ~$850.
That said, I am coming over from S&B scopes but owned both a 3-15 and 5-25 PH back when they had the really good pricing, not long after being introduced.
My opinion is that they are both phenomenal tools. I loved the GenII XR I had in one of the Premiers (as well as on one of the PMII's) but after extended use I think I actually preferred the P4f as I tried to teach myself to range and for general use spotting for myself and others.
They both just ooze quality, and you dont feel ripped off after dropping that huge chunk of money for a rifle scope. Especially after the price increase on the Premier's.
Glass is awesome overkill, meaning, for me, it is magnitudes better than what I need, but still just amazing glass for sure.
The things feel like they are armored trucks, tough as hell.
Not really much not to like about either if you are choosing that class of glass.
When it was all said and done I found that the PMII's were my favorite of the bunch and preferred them over the PH.
If I hadnt decided it was just smarter for me to focus on value, I would have stayed with the Schmidt instead of going for the PST's. But, I decided to put that extra money into other platforms and accessories and ammo.
All that said, you are basically deciding between Ferrari's and Lambo's, but if going for the highest end of elite scopes, you may as well consider the Hensoldt's as well.
Cant lose.
ETA- I forgot to mention, but if you are really not going to be shooting past short range, You are buying backhoe for a job a shovel can do. I would look at the lower power, more compact scopes. The 4-16 and 5-25 type optics are just a ton of mag for that short range. I would consider all options.
Re: Nice optic
Go with the Nightforce and get a better jump on the cost of your rifle. For 300 yd shooting the NF will be all you need.
Go with the Nightforce and get a better jump on the cost of your rifle. For 300 yd shooting the NF will be all you need.
Re: Nice optic
Sorry to bring this up again and beat the hell out of this thread but, how about a USO ST10? $945. Is this a good choice for my purposes? I know it's fixed and 10x is lower than the top ends previously mentioned but it seems nice.
Sorry to bring this up again and beat the hell out of this thread but, how about a USO ST10? $945. Is this a good choice for my purposes? I know it's fixed and 10x is lower than the top ends previously mentioned but it seems nice.
