Nightforce, Razor, others

[bidet]

I've been out of the game for a couple of years, but looking to get back in. My current rig is a Tikka TAC-A1 in 6.5 Creedmoor, with a Vortex Viper PST 4x16 (Gen I). I was able to engage out to +/-1400 yds with that, but I felt that I was reaching the limits of that scope in terms of both magnification and clarity. Also, the Viper does not have a Christmas tree, just the vertical/horizontal center lines, so it's not the easiest to do wind offsets with any holdover. So I'm looking for options.

I'm not looking to get into serious PRS matches or anything. I'd just like to be able to stretch the Tikka out a bit further, hopefully to a mile, maybe a bit more. I've got a 1000 yd range an hour away and another about five hours away that goes to 1 mile.

I know Nightforce is the top dog, but an ATACR is a bit pricey. I was looking at the Razor Gen II around the time that I had to take a break, and I see that they've got the Gen III now. The price difference b/t 4.5x27 Gen II and 6x36 Gen III is minimal, and I like the 36 MRAD of elevation. Also, I've been seeing some discount coupons in the Buy/Sell/Trade forum, which bring it down to a reasonable price ($2200)

I also saw a vendor on the B/S/T forum with a sale on the Nightforce NX8 4x32, which gets close to the price of the Razor Gen III with the coupon. There's even an individual listing one on B/S/T for under $2k. How does the NX8 compare to the ATACR and Razor Gen III?

Burris has their XTR III and XTR Pro scopes, also in the $2000 - $2500 range for a 5.5x30. I don't know anyone who has tried either of those, so if anyone here has any insights, I'd love to hear it.

And then there's the Leupold Mark 5HD. I'm not as big a fan of that one, as it does not have an illuminated reticle.

Features I'd like to have (and most of the scopes mentioned above have) are:

• clear optics
• illuminated reticle (for shooting near dusk)
• lots of elevation
• Christmas tree (maybe HORUS, maybe not)
• great warranty that I'll never need to use because it's built to not break in the first place

I'm not sure whether I'd get a lot out of the TREMOR3 or TREMOR5 reticle vs just a standard MIL-based Christmas tree. Any words of wisdom on that topic also would be appreciated. One thing I did notice about the TREMOR reticles is that the illuminated versions only have a handful of specific dots lighted on the vertical centerline, where most MIL trees have anywhere from 2 - 4 MILs of the main crosshairs illuminated for both windage and elevation. It seems like the additional lighting, especially on the windage, would be useful, but feel free to tell me if I'm wrong.

Thanks in advance.

 

[b6graham]

may is a good month to get a razor gen 3 from liberty optics

 

[R_A_W]

Razor Gen3 is superior to NX8 in nearly every way except for weight & the reticle (I strongly prefer the Mil-XT). I'm a NF fanboi, but I'd scratch the NX8 off your list.

may is a good month to get a razor gen 3 from liberty optics

x2 - this is a great deal

The Burris XTR Pro is within the price range you listed, however the XTR3 should be ~$1200. I've never used a Pro, but would love to based upon what I've read on here. I do have an XTR3 5.5-30x56... The FOV, eye relief, and the SCR2 reticle are all great for the price. The glass is very good for the price, but doesn't handle low light scenarios or mirage well (especially at longer ranges). I also had my elevation turret fail (<3 months of ownership <100rds of .308), which Burris repaired immediately & without question. My scope is working fine, but is now on a .22LR.

I just started using a NF 7-35x56 ATACR w/ Mil-XT & have no complaints.

You should look into Zeiss' V4 Z4 too. Given the price of a V4 Z4, you should scratch the XTR3 off your list as well.

Here are some scope reviews for you:

Glassaholic's
Kinetic Solutions Thread
Kinetic Solutions Review
@Rob01 has some reviews as well, check his out
One of Rob01's

 

[b6graham]

Razor Gen3 is superior to NX8 in nearly every way except for weight & the reticle (I strongly prefer the Mil-XT). I'm a NF fanboi, but I'd scratch the NX8 off your list.

x2 - this is a great deal

The Burris XTR Pro is within the price range you listed, however the XTR3 should be ~$1200. I've never used a Pro, but would love to based upon what I've read on here. I do have an XTR3 5.5-30x56... The FOV, eye relief, and the SCR2 reticle are all great for the price. The glass is very good for the price, but doesn't handle low light scenarios or mirage well (especially at longer ranges). I also had my elevation turret fail (<3 months of ownership <100rds of .308), which Burris repaired immediately & without question. My scope is working fine, but is now on a .22LR.

I just started using a NF 7-35x56 ATACR w/ Mil-XT & have no complaints.

You should look into Zeiss' Z4 too. Given the price of a Z4, you should scratch the XTR3 off your list as well.

Here are some scope reviews for you:

Glassaholic's
Kinetic Solutions Thread
Kinetic Solutions Review
@Rob01 has some reviews as well, check his out

Zeiss S3

 

[TheDude219]

Zeiss S3

Looking hard at the Zeiss. Maybe it's just me but I can't get behind vortex. Every scope and rds I have ever had from them has had issues. Granted its a personal sample size of 5 ( and it was never the razor line), but that's still way to many, IMO....

 

[R_A_W]

Zeiss S3

I meant V4, as a similarly priced competitor to the XTR3... but I corrected my post

That said, if the Razor Gen3 and the XTR Pro are being considered, the Zeiss S3 should as well

 

[roosterpig]

This post pretty much replicates what I went through a few weeks ago. Upgrading from a gen 1 PST 4-16 to something more capable.

I found a NIB Bushnell XRS2 4.5-30x50 with their illuminated G3 reticle. Found for about $1200 under your budget. Was happy to save a few bucks. Reticle is a more basic Christmas tree, like you're interested in.

Haven’t even mounted it, but I’m impressed by the build quality and the glass for what I paid. Will report back once it’s mounted and used a bit. Never owned a bushy scope. Hoping for the best.

 

[Birddog6424]

This was just posted on the XTR Pro thread.

Burris XTR Pro 🇺🇸

I agree. It will be my next scope. When you do check out Scott @LibertyOptics for an excellent price.

www.snipershide.com

 

[Lazyninja]

4-32 Nx8s work well for me on 6.5cm and .223 out to a mile,
running xtr3s on 280ai and 338lap.
Glass isn't quite as good but better eye relief allows spotting shots under higher recoil.
Around your pricepoint I think a minox zp5 might be the best option possible.

 

[TwistedOneinSeven]

As above comment @bidet, have a look at the Bushnell Elite Tactical range.
Turrets zero perfect every time, they're built like a tank, reticle options are along what you are seeking and glass in XRS2 and DMR3 are good (DMR3 is big step up in image from DMR2).
I own a couple ATACR7-35, have looked through a Razor Gen3(image was excellent to my eye) and owned many Vortex, Bushnell Elites etc.
I will always keep one of the Bushnell XRS2. It just plain works and was good value $ wise.
Just my 2cents

 

[Dobermann]

This post pretty much replicates what I went through a few weeks ago. Upgrading from a gen 1 PST 4-16 to something more capable.

I found a NIB Bushnell XRS2 4.5-30x50 with their illuminated G3 reticle. Found for about $1200 under your budget. Was happy to save a few bucks. Reticle is a more basic Christmas tree, like you're interested in.

Haven’t even mounted it, but I’m impressed by the build quality and the glass for what I paid. Will report back once it’s mounted and used a bit. Never owned a bushy scope. Hoping for the best.

Bushnell Elite Tacticals have passed some punishing drop tests that other 'big brands' have failed.

And if you hunt for it, you can find a Rifles Only Accuracy Podcast where Jacob calls the G2 'one of the most awesome reticles out there' ... just sayin'.

 

[Rob01]

First forget the Horus reticles. Coming from what you have you will have brain freeze with one. Get a good tree reticle and it will do anything you want and save you the $400 Horus licensing fee also.

For your wants and needs I would say the Zeiss LRP S3 4-25 would be a great choice. Shop around and you can find them around $2000. They have a great glass and reticle for holds and illumination. And they also have 46.5 mils of elevation so no issues getting to a mile with the 6.5 Creedmoor which will take about 24 mils to get there. The 6-36 version is great too but only 32 mils of elevation which will still get you to a mils with the right base set up.

The Burris XTR Pro is another good choice but only 26 mils of elevation but on a 40 moa base you should be fine. Going through Liberty Optics you can get them under $2000. They also have very good glass and reticle in the SCR-2. The tooless zeroing and speed dial is nice too.

I had a Bushnell XRS3 and it was OK but not up to the two above. The glass wasn't as good and the turrets didn't have the same click feel. Also no illumination.

The Tract Toric ELR is another you might want to look at. It has very good glass and 32 mils of elevation. Under your price range too and very useful illuminated reticle also.

 

[FuhQ]

First forget the Horus reticles. Coming from what you have you will have brain freeze with one. Get a good tree reticle and it will do anything you want and save you the $400 Horus licensing fee also.

For your wants and needs I would say the Zeiss LRP S3 4-25 would be a great choice. Shop around and you can find them around $2000. They have a great glass and reticle for holds and illumination. And they also have 46.5 mils of elevation so no issues getting to a mile with the 6.5 Creedmoor which will take about 24 mils to get there. The 6-36 version is great too but only 32 mils of elevation which will still get you to a mils with the right base set up.

The Burris XTR Pro is another good choice but only 26 mils of elevation but on a 40 moa base you should be fine. Going through Liberty Optics you can get them under $2000. They also have very good glass and reticle in the SCR-2. The tooless zeroing and speed dial is nice too.

I had a Bushnell XRS3 and it was OK but not up to the two above. The glass wasn't as good and the turrets didn't have the same click feel. Also no illumination.

The Tract Toric ELR is another you might want to look at. It has very good glass and 32 mils of elevation. Under your price range too and very useful illuminated reticle also.

Can highly recommend the Zeiss LRP S3, as well. I have a 6-36x56 model.

Also, spent lots of time behind my new Burris XTR-II 5-25x50 SCR scope Sunday. While the glass is not alpha tier, it’s still very useable even at 25x. The eyebox gets a bit tight above 20x, and the eye relied on mine, seems like you’re 4-5” behind the scope (my buddy who works at the range noticed the same thing). Other than those weird things, it’s a solid scope. I can imagine the XTR-III and XTR-PRO are even better. EuroOptic has the XTR-II SCR scopes on sale right now at $650 ($899 retail). It’s a great scope at the $650 price tag.

 

[Scopeye]

The Burris XTR PRO has a HUGE WIDE ANGLE FOV it's unbelievable. It's like a newby looking through a Vortex Razor for the first time. I'd say it's the most pleasant scope to look through at the $2000 and under price point if you prefer not to buy a Razor Gen 3.

 

[stevieb92]

If you qualify for the LE/MIL/first responder program at Euro Optic, they are offering a special discount of 55% off MSRP all Vortex Optics until May 31. I'm not affiliated, just a happy customer.

https://www.eurooptic.com/eurooptic-industry-le-military-ffl-vip-accounts.aspx

 

[Secant]

I didn't see a drop dead budget, but it sounds like you are trying to stay within the $2,500 or less range? If you have some flexibility, save up a few hundred more and get a used ZCO in the low $3k's.

In the $2k - $2,400 range, I'd probably be looking for a used Minox ZP5 5-25 or maybe a used Kahles 5-25 K525i.

 

[Scopeye]

I didn't see a drop dead budget, but it sounds like you are trying to stay within the $2,500 or less range? If you have some flexibility, save up a few hundred more and get a used ZCO in the low $3k's.

In the $2k - $2,400 range, I'd probably be looking for a used Minox ZP5 5-25 or maybe a used Kahles 5-25 K525i.

Here's a brand new upcoming release for under $1350 with discount for pre-order. Great optics for reasonable prices by having no middleman for excessive markups these are direct to consumer pricing. The massive total elevation travel ought to get you shooting a looong ways for sure and the German Schott glass is a big plus too. This is a reasonable alternative compared to the Zeiss LRP S3 for almost $1000 less money you can use towards a lot more precision reloading supplies. Don't necessarily have to spend $2000 to get this level of quality and I can assure you that these Tract Toric scopes punches way above their relatively lower price points. I can assure you that it's going to be better than a Nightforce NX8. If not using massive range of it's total elevation travel at least the image quality will stay perfectly crispy with a broader range of total travel keeping it closer to being optically centered.

TORIC 4-25x50 34mm How-to Videos | TRACT Optics

TORIC 4-25x50 34mm How-to Videos

help.tractoptics.com

 

[CK1.0]

Get a used Razor HDG2 EBR-7C from the PX on here for ~$2K or less, usually including mount/rings... it's still is as good or better than the others you've mentioned, and some weirdos (me) even still prefer them over the newer G3 model.

If it ever fucks up on you, or you manage to break it, Vortex will take care of it.

 

[Secant]

Here's a brand new upcoming release for under $1350 with discount for pre-order. Great optics for reasonable prices by having no middleman for excessive markups these are direct to consumer pricing. The massive total elevation travel ought to get you shooting a looong ways for sure and the German Schott glass is a big plus too. This is a reasonable alternative compared to the Zeiss LRP S3 for almost $1000 less money you can use towards a lot more precision reloading supplies. Don't necessarily have to spend $2000 to get this level of quality and I can assure you that these Tract Toric scopes punches way above their relatively lower price points. I can assure you that it's going to be better than a Nightforce NX8. If not using massive range of it's total elevation travel at least the image quality will stay perfectly crispy with a broader range of total travel keeping it closer to being optically centered.

TORIC 4-25x50 34mm How-to Videos | TRACT Optics

TORIC 4-25x50 34mm How-to Videos

help.tractoptics.com

I'm not sure why you're quoting me. I didn't mention any optic that you talked about, and I think it's a bit much to gush over, or make comparisons with, an optic that isn't even released.

 

[Scopeye]

I'm not sure why you're quoting me. I didn't mention any optic that you talked about, and I think it's a bit much to gush over, or make comparisons with, an optic that isn't even released.

Oops quoted wrong person apologies...

 

[Scopeye]

First forget the Horus reticles. Coming from what you have you will have brain freeze with one. Get a good tree reticle and it will do anything you want and save you the $400 Horus licensing fee also.

For your wants and needs I would say the Zeiss LRP S3 4-25 would be a great choice. Shop around and you can find them around $2000. They have a great glass and reticle for holds and illumination. And they also have 46.5 mils of elevation so no issues getting to a mile with the 6.5 Creedmoor which will take about 24 mils to get there. The 6-36 version is great too but only 32 mils of elevation which will still get you to a mils with the right base set up.

The Burris XTR Pro is another good choice but only 26 mils of elevation but on a 40 moa base you should be fine. Going through Liberty Optics you can get them under $2000. They also have very good glass and reticle in the SCR-2. The tooless zeroing and speed dial is nice too.

I had a Bushnell XRS3 and it was OK but not up to the two above. The glass wasn't as good and the turrets didn't have the same click feel. Also no illumination.

The Tract Toric ELR is another you might want to look at. It has very good glass and 32 mils of elevation. Under your price range too and very useful illuminated reticle also.

Meant to quote you with my recent reply with the new Tract Toric 4-25x50 for under $1350 on pre-order discount price with huge total elevation travel as a better value compared to the Zeiss LRPS3 for almost $1000 less money.

 

[Obi-WanKannoli]

The NX8 to me is a marketing exercise in specs. Sounds really great on paper and most consumer believes it delivers tremendous value from one of the best optics manufacturers in the industry; light weight, durable, great glass, incredible zoom ratio, excellent turrets, reticle options, etc....until you (attempt to) get behind it and realize it has an impossibly tight eye box, extremely small field of view, and that maybe the top third of the magnification range isn't usable. I had a couple, sold them both pretty quickly. If you want it for a bench rest gun where it wont be used in the field and there is no need for positional shooting, fine, but even then there are much stronger options imo.

If I were you with your budget, search for a used ATACR or Razor. I can't speak to the new Zeiss optics but I've read good things.

 

[Scopeye]

The NX8 to me is a marketing exercise in specs. Sounds really great on paper and most consumer believes it delivers tremendous value from one of the best optics manufacturers in the industry; light weight, durable, great glass, incredible zoom ratio, excellent turrets, reticle options, etc....until you (attempt to) get behind it and realize it has an impossibly tight eye box, extremely small field of view, and that maybe the top third of the magnification range isn't usable. I had a couple, sold them both pretty quickly. If you want it for a bench rest gun where it wont be used in the field and there is no need for positional shooting, fine, but even then there are much stronger options imo.

If I were you with your budget, search for a used ATACR or Razor.

Overpriced for what it is and I bought one and should have purchased some more Chinese Athlon Ares BTR 4.5-27x50s that are just fine for 1/3 the price and not as finiky.

 

[Rob01]

Meant to quote you with my recent reply with the new Tract Toric 4-25x50 for under $1350 on pre-order discount price with huge total elevation travel as a better value compared to the Zeiss LRPS3 for almost $1000 less money.

I saw that Tract also. I had a ELR and it was a good scope. Wasn't too hot on the knobs raising up so high and the FOV didn't feel as large as the Zeiss. Also if you are talking LE/Mil pricing the $1350 is about $400 less than the 4-25x S3. Not near $1000. Even full priced it's $850 difference to the Tract special pricing and about $700 off when both are full priced.

 

[viking78]

Razor HD III 6-36X56 is excelent scope.
I have one on test from a Finnish impoter.
Not bad, not at all.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

Did I miss someone asking about engaging at/beyond 1400 yards with a 6.5CM? The OP didn't list a geography, nor does his(her) profile, but there are parts of this conversation that, I think, warrant more than scope/reticle clarifications.

But it is probably just me...

 

[bidet]

Zeiss S3

I like the specs on this one. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[bidet]

As above comment @bidet, have a look at the Bushnell Elite Tactical range.
Turrets zero perfect every time, they're built like a tank, reticle options are along what you are seeking and glass in XRS2 and DMR3 are good (DMR3 is big step up in image from DMR2).
I own a couple ATACR7-35, have looked through a Razor Gen3(image was excellent to my eye) and owned many Vortex, Bushnell Elites etc.
I will always keep one of the Bushnell XRS2. It just plain works and was good value $ wise.
Just my 2cents

I'll look into the Bushnells for a backup gun. Thanks.

 

[bidet]

First forget the Horus reticles. Coming from what you have you will have brain freeze with one. Get a good tree reticle and it will do anything you want and save you the $400 Horus licensing fee also.

For your wants and needs I would say the Zeiss LRP S3 4-25 would be a great choice. Shop around and you can find them around $2000. They have a great glass and reticle for holds and illumination. And they also have 46.5 mils of elevation so no issues getting to a mile with the 6.5 Creedmoor which will take about 24 mils to get there. The 6-36 version is great too but only 32 mils of elevation which will still get you to a mils with the right base set up.

The Burris XTR Pro is another good choice but only 26 mils of elevation but on a 40 moa base you should be fine. Going through Liberty Optics you can get them under $2000. They also have very good glass and reticle in the SCR-2. The tooless zeroing and speed dial is nice too.

I had a Bushnell XRS3 and it was OK but not up to the two above. The glass wasn't as good and the turrets didn't have the same click feel. Also no illumination.

The Tract Toric ELR is another you might want to look at. It has very good glass and 32 mils of elevation. Under your price range too and very useful illuminated reticle also.

Thanks for the detailed response.

Glad to know I'm not the only one thinking I'm too dumb to use the Horus. Just kidding. I know it's a fine reticle, but unless I could go shooting every week, I'd forget what half the stuff on it does.

The Zeiss S3 does sound good, and if it came down to an XTR Pro or an S3, using retail pricing, I'd go with the S3 due to the extra elevation, even though it costs a little bit more. However, I spotted an add in the Buy/Sell/Trade for a Burris cert from a prize table, for a $999 price on the XTR Pro. Couldn't pass that up, so I'm glad to hear that the 40 moa base should allow me to reach a mile.

I'll have to look at the Toric line for a possible back-up rifle.

 

[Milf Dots]

Meant to quote you with my recent reply with the new Tract Toric 4-25x50 for under $1350 on pre-order discount price with huge total elevation travel as a better value compared to the Zeiss LRPS3 for almost $1000 less money.

The Zeiss LRP S3 4-25x50 can often be found new for under $1895 from SH vendors, and the model has been available to the public for at least 6 months. I'd pay that extra $500 for a known great Zeiss scope over a brand new, not yet available Tract model. YMMV

 

[bidet]

Here's a brand new upcoming release for under $1350 with discount for pre-order. Great optics for reasonable prices by having no middleman for excessive markups these are direct to consumer pricing. The massive total elevation travel ought to get you shooting a looong ways for sure and the German Schott glass is a big plus too. This is a reasonable alternative compared to the Zeiss LRP S3 for almost $1000 less money you can use towards a lot more precision reloading supplies. Don't necessarily have to spend $2000 to get this level of quality and I can assure you that these Tract Toric scopes punches way above their relatively lower price points. I can assure you that it's going to be better than a Nightforce NX8. If not using massive range of it's total elevation travel at least the image quality will stay perfectly crispy with a broader range of total travel keeping it closer to being optically centered.

TORIC 4-25x50 34mm How-to Videos | TRACT Optics

TORIC 4-25x50 34mm How-to Videos

help.tractoptics.com

Wow! 47 mil elevation! I didn't see any info on the reticle - will it use the same as their 4.5 - 30x56?

 

[bidet]

Did I miss someone asking about engaging at/beyond 1400 yards with a 6.5CM? The OP didn't list a geography, nor does his(her) profile, but there are parts of this conversation that, I think, warrant more than scope/reticle clarifications.

But it is probably just me...

Geography was not mentioned. For the 1400 yds, I was shooting at Whittington, and they had a target at about 1550, but I just couldn't connect with it. For the attempts beyond that, I would be going to Northeast Texas Tactical.

 

[Scopeye]

Wow! 47 mil elevation! I didn't see any info on the reticle - will it use the same as their 4.5 - 30x56?

It's likely but it's best to give one of the Jon's a call to get the specifics. They also have a satisfaction guaranteed or your money back that you should also inquire about.

 

[Scopeye]

The Zeiss LRP S3 4-25x50 can often be found new for under $1895 from SH vendors, and the model has been available to the public for at least 6 months. I'd pay that extra $500 for a known great Zeiss scope over a brand new, not yet available Tract model. YMMV

Tract has a satisfaction guaranteed or your money back and I've personally owned three Tract Optics Toric lines of scope so far and haven't needed to use their money back guarantee. I also own one Zeiss too

 

[Milf Dots]

"ZEISS LRP S3 4-25x50 model, with a staggering 160 MOA or 46.5 MRAD of elevation travel."

FFP Precision Rifle Scope LRP S3 425-50 | ZEISS

www.zeiss.com

 

[FuhQ]

At this point, I wouldn't own a Tract Toric scope if it was free. I'd almost be willing to pay them $20 to NOT send it to me.

I'll take my LRP S3 any day of the week.

 

[Scopeye]

Wow! 47 mil elevation! I didn't see any info on the reticle - will it use the same as their 4.5 - 30x56?

Another even cheaper options and made in the Philippines are theb Nw Primary Arms GLx 4.5-27x56 34mm 120MOA MSRP $899.99 and 3-18x50 34mm 180MOA MSRP $749.99. Primary Arms has a 90 day money back guarantee and have good discount for law enforcement and military too. Other than that if you don't qualify for the discount there's other dealers that can sell them for cheaper prices for regular folks.

At this point, I wouldn't own a Tract Toric scope if it was free. I'd almost be willing to pay them $20 to NOT send it to me.

I'll take my LRP S3 any day of the week.

Out of curiosity what didn't you like about the Tract Toric? I know I like the ELR 4.5-30x56 34mm way better than the 4-20x50 30mm due to noticeably better image quality and a lot more total elevation travel but the only negative is it's weight. After ordering my first Burris XTR PRO I like it a lot better than the Tracts due to it's incredibly huge FOV and useful race dials except for it's lower total elevation travel.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Surprised no one mentioned the MK5 HD. I hate to recommend something I own without a good comparison to other makes, but I have to admit, the MK5 5x25 with the RR2 MIL reticle has worked well. Own two, nothing to complain about. Have to agree with the thoughts on the Horus and other similar, very complicated trees. Fill up the sight picture with lines and numbers, makes it hard to concentrate on the subject at hand, which is hitting the target.

 

[FuhQ]

Out of curiosity what didn't you like about the Tract Toric? I know I like the ELR 4.5-30x56 34mm way better than the 4-20x50 30mm due to noticeably better image quality and a lot more total elevation travel but the only negative is it's weight. After ordering my first Burris XTR PRO I like it a lot better than the Tracts due to it's incredibly huge FOV and useful race dials except for it's lower total elevation travel.

Oh, I've never owned one, I was just making a joke.