No. 4 mk1 (T) questions

[Ledzep]

Hello,

Pending the sale of my NF NXS in the optics for sale section, I'm going to put together a No.4 mk1 (T) reproduction. I've read the process in a few forums of how to properly fit the pads and mount the bracket/scope. That part is easy (to understand at least). I also understand what needs to happen to properly center the scope, but I'm not sure I grasp exactly how it's done.

Everyone says the 'issue' adjustment tool for the MkI and MkII scopes is a PITA 3-handed job. A few sources also throw out nomenclature. I can't find any instruction on how the adjustment tool is properly used (I know that clockwise moves the graticule (same as reticle?) right or down depending on which drum), nor can I find a reference of nomenclature on the No.32 MkI or MkII.

Anyone think they could shed some light on the subject? It would be greatly appreciated. I prefer to know exactly what I'm getting into before I drop cash

Thanks

 

[BasraBoy]

I would strongly recommend you buy two books before starting your project:

1) No4(T), An Armourer's Perspective
2) Telescope Sighting No32, MKi, Mk2 and Mk3

Both are by Peter Laidler. Peter gives a walk through on the use of the tool on Mk1 and Mk2 scopes.

And yes...for graticule read reticle.

On the scope, try to get the No32 Mk3....it can be zeroed by a normal two-handed person and doesn't need the PITA tool! Once zero'd you simply place a slotted allen key in the top of the turret and hold it in position and rotate the turret back to the required distance marker (or 0) with your free hand.

And, as mentioned on MJ1's recent Enfield post...don't be tempted to buy a scope in need of refurbishment....it will be a world of pain, expense and doubtful outcome given the scarcity of parts and guys experienced enough to repair/refurb them. Better to take the initial pain and buy a fully functioning original. If that is not possible you could look at the Numrich replica (follow the link below to my smith, he has a review of his experience with these).

On the process of centering and mounting the bracket go to www.thamesvalleyguns.co.uk and open the article "Building a No4T " in the Armourer's Notes on the left of the page.

Paul gives a detailed review of building the No4(T) replica he did for me.

This is a link to my thread about the rifle here on the Hide:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-bolt-action-rifles/62417-brought-home-weekend.html

It is critical to the whole project you get the scope correctly aligned to the bore.

You will most likely need to machine the receiver side wall flat and fit the mounts correctly. Back in the day these were individually fitted but many repro's today are measured from those already fitted, not from raw stock. This means that the repros are often the wrong size and may need shimming. Get this wrong and you may as well not bother.

Not sure what you would pay for the whole project on your side of the water, but here in the UK the total cost of parts, labour and the donor rifle was around £2,500 three years ago. Biggest chunk (more than 50%) of that was for the scope.

Good luck with the project, be sure to keep a diary/thread of build.

Done correctly you can end up with a fantastic rifle!

PS Obvious point maybe but.....before you even think about doing this...the most important thing to do is to make sure the donor rifle can group well with irons. If can't, you won't improve it by adding a scope, you're just burning money for no gain.

 

[303_enfield]

Don't make a fake. You can still find a Scope less "T" around $500. Yes, a scope less Savage will run more. But in the States, Springfield Sporters sold 1,000's of Indian issues scope less rifles. Fake scope sets are under $800 with everything. Real No. 32's can be found $100-$3,000. Even the $3,000 needing rebuilds. I know of two guys doing the scope work, Wheaty in Canada and Cpt Laidler in the UK. Shipping scopes to Cpt Laidler is through Brain Dick in the States.

If you have money to burn Brain has a nice little put together here:
Military Firearms CR BSA MK 1T

Before I get flamed for saying No. 32 can be found for $100. I just found one for $60USD at a flea market in Delaware. Yes, it will need the drums unstuck. Guy also sold me a 1942 BSA No I Mk III* for $125 Keep your eyes open and you'll find the deals.

Go here and read around:
The Lee-Enfield Forum
The Lee Enfield Knowledge Library Collectors Forum


Welcome to my sickness

 

[BasraBoy]

Don't make a fake. You can still find a Scope less "T" around $500. Yes, a scope less Savage will run more. But in the States, Springfield Sporters sold 1,000's of Indian issues scope less rifles. Fake scope sets are under $800 with everything. Real No. 32's can be found $100-$3,000. Even the $3,000 needing rebuilds. I know of two guys doing the scope work, Wheaty in Canada and Cpt Laidler in the UK. Shipping scopes to Cpt Laidler is through Brain Dick in the States.

If you have money to burn Brain has a nice little put together here:
Military Firearms CR BSA MK 1T

Before I get flamed for saying No. 32 can be found for $100. I just found one for $60USD at a flea market in Delaware. Yes, it will need the drums unstuck. Guy also sold me a 1942 BSA No I Mk III* for $125 Keep your eyes open and you'll find the deals.

Go here and read around:
The Lee-Enfield Forum
The Lee Enfield Knowledge Library Collectors Forum


Welcome to my sickness

Not flaming....but what is your definition of a fake? Surely (to the purist) even a mismatched "T" with a different scope is classed as a fake?

And....can you really find a genuine, shootable T spec rifle for under $500?

I looked for a long time in the UK and never got close......you can't even buy a decent, usable bog standard No4 from a reputable specialist for under £350-£375 . That being said there are a lot of shot-out or just plain knackered examples that just get passed from deler to dealer on the racks or lurking on private sales forums........

Simpsons on your side of the pond has an unscoped No4T for $1,850...most of their plain Jane No4's seem to be around $350. BDL around the same.

 

[303_enfield]

In the States you can find scope less "T" rifles at $500 (read ex T's from Springfield Sporters), scope less Savages run under $900 in 100%. But few Savages ever where completed with scope and Kit. As for a fake is a fake. No, even Cpt. Laidler has posted about T's being rebuilt in service. Now, taking a good #4 (ruining it), milling and installing the pads to make a repro T. That would be a FAKE, Century did that a few years ago.

Using real parts to restore a scope less. Well, that is restoration

Last show had six scope less T's. One Savage at $700 and five of the ex Indian T's $500-$625. Bunch of fake (Century) humped T's at $2,000+

Take your time and have fun.

 

[Ledzep]

Excellent, thanks for the replies gentlemen!

I'll probably use the Numrich scope kit. I haven't locked down a rifle yet, I'll try to go next week pawn-shop and gun-shop surfing to see what's out there. I'll also check out those books.

I'm not really concerned with "fake". Someone's going to have varying levels of issues with whatever I do. Ideal situation for me is a sporterized rifle built back up to 'spec'.

 

[MJ1]

Read Mr. Laidler's books the information is in there in detail. If all else fails just watch the pointer as you move the lead screws.

 

[303_enfield]

Led, this one "could" be a starting point. Chest is harder to find then the rifle (in the States).
ARMSLIST - For Sale/Trade: 1944 Lee Enfield No4 MKI T Sniper Rifle w/Transit Chest & Scope Case

You'll need more photos.

 

[BasraBoy]

But in the States, Springfield Sporters sold 1,000's of Indian issues scope less rifles.

Maybe I am misinterpreting what you mean by "Indian issue"...do you mean Ishapore made "T" rifles or UK/Canadian manufactured rifles that were allocated to forces in India?

For clarity, No4(T) production was limited to rifles from RSA Enfield, BSA, Maltby, Savage and Long Branch. Laidler gives the total number of rifles from these sources converted to T spec as Holland & Holand 23,177, Enfield 1,403 and Long Branch 1,141....a total of 25,721.

No T spec rifles were ever produced by Ishapore.

Would like to know more about these Indian rifles that Springfield Sporters offered......

 

[DV]

Would like to know more about these Indian rifles that Springfield Sporters offered......

They were British made No.4 T`s that were sent into Indian service, well used and sometimes rebuilt by Indian arsenals. All the No. 4 T`s from Indian service I`ve seen have had the Isaphore (sp?)screw added to the fore stock to reinforce it for grenade launching.

Some rifles fairly good condition, some really worn out, most with pads still in place.

 

[BasraBoy]

Thanks DV.

Having spent a lot of time in India from the mid '90's to mid '00's and seeing both L1A1 and SMLE's in daily use by the police in dust, dirt and monsoon with lamentable care I would personally approach any firearm from the sub-continent extremely cautiously.

 

[MJ1]

I have one and it was scrubbed and the ID moved to the receiver ring and the right side. Funky replacement stock set but hell it shoots. Here is the first test target from ten years ago. I keep telling myself to put it into a nice walnut stock set with the screw I have set aside and maybe I will. I think I should pull it out while I'm here in the states. If I do I will take some good pictures if there is any interest, just let me know.



On another note who need three hands?

 

[BasraBoy]

Still struggling with the idea of a No4(T) for single digit hundreds.....

F1324 ENFIELD NO4 T .303

 

[MJ1]

Still struggling with the idea of a No4(T) for single digit hundreds.....

No.

 

[BasraBoy]

MJ1 - thanks for rubbing it in!

But when did you buy yours...and what percentage of them are fully original, bitsa's or repros?

 

[MJ1]

What constitutes a bitser? A replaced butt stock or fore stock or are you just trying to bit-pick..LOL I will refrain from posting them if it's a problem for you. This is not a contest as I recall just sharing. Didn't try to put a burr under your saddle, apology.



Repro's, really? That hurt. Your off my Holiday card list.

..MJ..

 

[BasraBoy]

MJ...no burr under my saddle. And always enjoy your pics.

Just really struggling to come to terms with the apparent difference in pricing/values on No4(T) on your side of the water.

Hell.....you can't even by a POS de-act here for the kind of money being talked about above.......even fully working clones/replicas are changing hands here for £2000.

"Bitsa"......made up of bits of different rifles (like the £2,850 "98k Scharfschutze" Fultons had a year or so ago!!).

Notice you didn't answer the question about how long ago you bought all those beauties.....

 

[MJ1]

Everything was cheaper yesterday. Never talk what you payed yesterday or today. What would be the point? Prices here and there not important and I don't pay attention as it's like talking about the teats on your last one night bird. It's all in their minds most of the time anyway. We are stealing this poor man's post and I apologize for that too.

Re-pro's. That hurt. You should see the'45 T I'm carving out of a bobbed Mosin Nagant 91/30

 

[BasraBoy]

Morning MJ!

+1 on not hijacking. If it's taken as that - apologies to the OP.

Bottom line is the OP stated an intention to build a replica. Others chimed in encouraging him to forget a replica with prices for non-scoped No4T rifles for under $1000.

Not saying it is wrong but IME they must be extremely rare or we're talking prices a LONG time ago.

Agree 100% there is no point in talking what happened in the past.

My father-in-law bought his first house in London for £5000....and he remembers when you could by Spitfires for £25 each, scrap value after WW2.

All in their own minds?

Maybe, but I've heard stories in Austria of a farmer who found a mint condition Panzer IV in a barn that was left behind by the Wehrmacht as a cache. I've also got mates in Ireland who swear they've seen Leprechauns......just a question of luck and timing, I guess

Just trying to get the OP some clarity.......

Got to go....been invited on a wild goose chase today. Thought it'd make a nice change from keeping a watch out for flying pigs.

PS...no offense meant by the repro's....just seeing that number of No4(T)'s in one pic just made me wonder. Seeing as it's you, I should have known better!!

 

[MJ1]

Time to move along then.

 

[mrbungle]

speaking of no4 mk I T , just bought my first one yesterday and i should have it next week sometime. made in 44, has the bracket pads on it, no scope or mount. i figured i was not a gunsmith enough to ruin a good no4 installing the pads and i wanted the real deal. thinking about putting repro sarco scope and mount on it until i can find a real no 32 scope and mount for it.

but under a grand , not these days.....alittle under 1200 with shipping.

 

[BasraBoy]

mrbungle - congrats! Would be good if you can post pics so we can see what you get for the money on your side of the pond.

On the bracket, try ot get one from Roger Payne in the UK....great quality and they fit real No32's!! Not all repros are as good.......

 

[mrbungle]

thanks, barsaboy. i have been talking to roger on the milsurp forum and i am on his waiting list for his next run of brackets.

 

[BasraBoy]

No worries. Good call....Roger is a great bloke and you won't be disappointed.

 

[MJ1]

Rogers brackets have always been the best as far as build and fitting go. this one is a 3rd gen and I have one or two from the original run still in a box from the late 80's.

 

[mrbungle]

MJ you need to send me a bracket and a no 32 scope so i can take care of it for you.....LOL!!!! it will be right at home on my T.

 

[MJ1]

Keep your eyes open they are out there I just scored a MkI in good working order.

 

[mrbungle]

i check ebay everyday and have not seen one yet. where are you searching?

 

[MJ1]

People contact me from time to time.