Range Report Noob goes to the range with new rifle

[MattInFla]

New to the precision rifle / target rifle game. I've been shooting for many years, but primarily in 'minute of bad guy' styles like IDPA / Carbine action shooting. This scoped rifle stuff is a completely different beast.

My setup is a Savage 110 Tactical in 6.5 Creedmoor, Sig Tango 4 4-24x50, Harris bipod, and a Spike's Tactical muzzle break (have to support my local awesomeness shop). I was shooting Hornady Black 140gr.

Pre-range day, I boresighted using a borrowed boresight device (with the high cheekpiece on the gun, you can't see directly down the bore), ran a couple swabs through the barrel, and dry fired for a while to get used to the trigger / cheekweld / etc.

Hit the range, and started at 25 yards to make sure the gun was close to sighted - and I'm glad I did - the boresight was way off. Expended a few rounds at 25 yards getting windage set correctly, and elevation reasonably close, and then moved to the 100 yard line to do the actual zero. All went well, and the rifle was quickly zeroed using the mil reticle to measure the correction required and apply it. After, that is, I stopped applying the corrections in the wrong direction, ASSuming the adjustments worked like the RDS optics on my other guns... I then slipped the turrets and set the elevation zero stop up as per the scope manual.

All in all, a nice start to the day at the range.

I then settled down to learn some of the things that I didn't know that I didn't know. Which is rather a lot as it turns out.

Lowering the bipod legs one notch and using my closed fist to support the rear of the stock helped a lot, as did lowering the magnification on the optic. Not surprisingly, higher magnification leads to more perceived jitter in the alignment, which leads to chasing minuscule changes all over the place.

Following Ryan Cleckner's "focus on the reticle, steady pressure on the trigger" mantra seemed to help my shooting as well. I was calling my hits with reasonable accuracy when I focused on the basics and made sure I followed through the trigger pull. My final four rounds of the day:

I pulled through the trigger too fast on the last round, and called it low in my head right after it went. Bummer, because the top three were pretty nice and tight. The middle hole there is actually two rounds, near as I can tell. That, or I completely missed the whole sticker and didn't recognize the really bad shot. That's also very possible


I finished off the range session by re-torquing all the optic mounting screws with a torque wrench, and called it a day. Overall, the rifle performed well, with no issues. Me? Probably not bad for a first time out with a new setup - and a new shooting paradigm.

Lessons learned:

- Need a rear bag (ordered)
- Need to dry fire more and focus on smooth, steady trigger pulls with follow-through
- Magnification is not your friend at the upper end. Lower is better as long as you can clearly see the desired impact spot.
- There is still a ton of stuff that I do not know that I do not know.
- This target stuff is fun

 

[308pirate]

Cool beans, great attitude.

 

[Racer88]

And.... another falls down the rabbit hole!

 

[ShtrRdy]

Man, it sounds like you did really well your first time out. Ryan Cleckner's book is good. Your using the reticle to adjust impact is awesome. I had been shooting precision rifle for a while before I had the "ah-ha" moment.

Were you shooting off a bench or prone?

 

[Racer88]

That looks like the Martin County Sportsmen Association range.

I'm a bit south of you. Looked into joining that range. But, they ban concealed carry, so that was a deal-breaker for me. Plus it's about 45 minutes north of me.

 

[MattInFla]

I was at the Strickland range in Daytona.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I remember when the wife and I stretched our legs out to 100 yards
My local range (35 miles away) is only 100, and is still flooded.
Moving from open sights to a scope was a surprise.
I am alive. With a heart beat

 

[Racer88]

I was at the Strickland range in Daytona.

Check out the Port Malabar Rifle & Pistol Club, if you're up that way. Very nice. I've shot a few competitions there. They have a 600-yard range with electronic scoring. Pretty neat stuff.

PS... Join the Online Training here at Sniper's Hide. Well worth $15 / month. Tons of instructional videos. You'll learn tons. You can cancel at any time.

 

[Freedom790]

Lessons learned:

- Need a rear bag (ordered)
- Need to dry fire more and focus on smooth, steady trigger pulls with follow-through
- Magnification is not your friend at the upper end. Lower is better as long as you can clearly see the desired impact spot.
- There is still a ton of stuff that I do not know that I do now know.
- This target stuff is fun

That lesson right there will lead to incredible growth.

 

[CriticallyStressed]

Well done for a first timer! Just wait until you get your first round hit past 500

 

[Dave62677]

good job, much better than my first range trip.

 

[thaifighter]

While it's never fun to have your group open up on the last round, if you called it, understand what caused it and learned from it, it's not a wasted shot. Looks like you are on you're well on your way!

 

[MattInFla]

Check out the Port Malabar Rifle & Pistol Club, if you're up that way. Very nice. I've shot a few competitions there. They have a 600-yard range with electronic scoring. Pretty neat stuff.

PS... Join the Online Training here at Sniper's Hide. Well worth $15 / month. Tons of instructional videos. You'll learn tons. You can cancel at any time.

Joined the online training - looks like a bunch of really good info there.

 

[tnichols]

Well done for a first timer! Just wait until you get your first round hit past 500

This ^^^. The sound of a bullet impacting steel at a distance can get addictive...and expensive ?

 

[footsteps]

Slow and steady wins the race, small goals get you experience.

 

[pmclaine]

Now that you have torqued your stuff after letting it settle in don't go back to retorquing as a common practice after firing habit.

Retourquing again and again will eventually cause over torque and you will eventually snap a screw.

Unless you suspect an issue let the fasteners be or if you want to reset them back off the tourque than bring it back to spec.

Just a little PSA to help you prevent some heart ache.

Have fun.

 

[Precision Underground]

Sounds like you did well for your first day out?? I have seen l lot of first day disasters where 2 boxes of ammo are wasted and frustration was the only thing gained. You did your homework and took the correct steps. Welcome to the rabbit hole lol.

I’ll second the online training suggestion. Lots of good info and cancel anytime, can’t beat that.

 

[MattInFla]

Now that you have torqued your stuff after letting it settle in don't go back to retorquing as a common practice after firing habit.

Retourquing again and again will eventually cause over torque and you will eventually snap a screw.

Unless you suspect an issue let the fasteners be or if you want to reset them back off the tourque than bring it back to spec.

Just a little PSA to help you prevent some heart ache.

Have fun.

Great point. I was only planning to do the one retorque after this first session, a lesson learned from flying large RC helis.

 

[308pirate]

I was only planning to do the one retorque after this first session, a lesson learned from flying large RC helis.

Ever lose the Jesus link?

 

[VP47PPC]

Retourquing again and again will eventually cause over torque and you will eventually snap a screw.

Trying to understand that if you are using a torque driver set at X inch pounds you get over torqued? How does that work?

 

[pmclaine]

Trying to understand that if you are using a torque driver set at X inch pounds you get over torqued? How does that work?

Keep doing it and get back to us.

There has to be resistance in order to trip the tourque cam or however the wrench works.

Each time you trip the cam you add a little resistance in order to make it slip.

First time it slips at 12 inch pounds, next time maybe 12.25, next 12.5 and so on till it snaps a bolt.

Release the tension than go back to spec if you must but after settling it in leave it alone until you suspect an issue.

 

[VP47PPC]

First time it slips at 12 inch pounds, next time maybe 12.25, next 12.5 and so on till it snaps a bolt.

So if I am torquing a new scope down and I have 8 screws on a pair of rings and set driver at 15 inch pounds you are saying the eighth screw is getting torqued more? In your example of .25 added each time then last screw gets 17 inch pounds?

 

[pmclaine]

So if I am torquing a new scope down and I have 8 screws on a pair of rings and set driver at 15 inch pounds you are saying the eighth screw is getting torqued more? In your example of .25 added each time then last screw gets 17 inch pounds?

No the wrench itself doesn't change with each screw it's just when you have a fastener up to torque than you "bump" it again to check torque you impart some stretch.

If I have 8 screws to torque say to twelve inch pounds I'll bring all 8 in some sort of even pattern up to 10 inch pounds than follow same pattern and finish them at 12 leaving them alone.

Maybe I'll check them once after that than leave them alone.

I don't know the science of it but if you check those screws every day for the next week without backing off you will eventually break them.

Even the best wrench has a plus or minus tolerance.

If your wrench continually gives you minus no problem but it doesn't it will occasionally give you plus.

Stack that tolerance over a few times and it will add up.

 

[VP47PPC]

I don't know the science of it but if you check those screws every day for the next week without backing off you will eventually break them.

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I really wanted to understand how this could happen. I did some research on my own and though could not find a discussion of this issue I think I understand what you are describing.

 

[pmclaine]

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I really wanted to understand how this could happen. I did some research on my own and though could not find a discussion of this issue I think I understand what you are describing.

I'm not 100 percent in my mind sure of the science but I've seen the results.

Maybe it's just an old screw over stretched?

Perhaps some engineer types like @mcameron could confirm if I'm full of shit, well full of shit on this subject perhaps.

 

[Snaploader]

Nice shooting! Good attitude with the willingness to learn from others.

 

[308pirate]

The only time a threaded fastener stretches is when it is rotated past the point of joint alignment. Basically when you're rotating the bolt but the head can't move in an axial direction, so the threaded shank stretches and creates tension as the threads continue to move in relation to one another in the axial direction.

If you do a rough "torque" check to see if they have loosened by applying nominal torque with a wrench and it doesn't rotate, you haven't stretched it more.

I am an engineer and threaded fastener tightening control is one of my areas of professional expertise

 

[MattInFla]

Ever lose the Jesus link?

Watched a guy spool up a new heli build and the entire rotor head shot up vertically without the rest of the heli - he forgot the Jesus Bolt.

 

[308pirate]

Watched a guy spool up a new heli build and the entire rotor head shot up vertically without the rest of the heli - he forgot the Jesus Bolt.

LOL do you think this what the Jesus bolt/link?


I freaking love RC turbine helos but don't have the scratch for that money black hole......the sound and smell of a gas turbine spooling up is hotness.

 

[Rocketvapor]

"I am an engineer and threaded fastener tightening control is one of my areas of professional expertise"
The world would come apart if it wasn't for properly designed fastener specifications

Unless your torque measuring device is faulty you won't exceed break away torque for a fastener at rest.
Once you have a minimal amount of fastener elongation (rotation past zero slack) It will take more than the initial torque to move the head and increase elongation.

 

[308pirate]

"I am an engineer and threaded fastener tightening control is one of my areas of professional expertise"
The world would come apart if it wasn't for properly designed fastener specifications

Unless your torque measuring device is faulty you won't exceed break away torque for a fastener at rest.
Once you have a minimal amount of fastener elongation (rotation past zero slack) It will take more than the initial torque to move the head and increase elongation.

+1

You're absolutely right. I was trying to leave it as basic as possible.

 

[Rocketvapor]

People often forget about elongation. --it happens.
Always.

 

[VP47PPC]

When erecting a structure mind the elongation factor.

 

[pmclaine]

LOL do you think this what the Jesus bolt/link?


I freaking love RC turbine helos but don't have the scratch for that money black hole......the sound and smell of a gas turbine spooling up is hotness.

I was going to say even as toys those ungainly Mfers make you wonder how they can fly.

Almost like someone flipped the switch on a jammer or something and killed it dead. The rotor was still attached so the Jesus nut must have still been intact.

When I was in Switzerland with USMC it was pager era. If you left the Mission you brought your pager and hit the telephone booth to call Post One and see what they wanted.

I was on a mountain bike ride one day and stopped at a local RC airfield to watch the Swiss fly some nice RC gear. As Im watching this big ass Cessna styled RC aircraft my pager starts beeping and the Cessna right wing stalled directly into a tree at the exact moment the pager started beeping.

Doubt it was the pager but I always wondered - could it have been?

 

[pmclaine]

"I am an engineer and threaded fastener tightening control is one of my areas of professional expertise"
The world would come apart if it wasn't for properly designed fastener specifications

Unless your torque measuring device is faulty you won't exceed break away torque for a fastener at rest.
Once you have a minimal amount of fastener elongation (rotation past zero slack) It will take more than the initial torque to move the head and increase elongation.

@Rocketvapor , @308pirate

If your torque device has a +/- spec what happens when you stack the plus side reading?

If the max + is 3% and you want 12 inch pounds is the max torque you can get 12.36 inch pounds?

Next time you check it is 12.36 inch pounds the most you will get or can it be incrementally more?

Read of an account where AMU had an issue where they checked their action screws prior to every shoot and sure enough they eventually snapped a fastner.

Operator error?

Or does the device continue to bump the torque?

I dont trust the devices, not Snap On or a good Seekonk, even if good practice is followed and they are exercised before loading.

Ill check a screw once than if I think there is an issue it gets backed off and reset to spec.

Than only so many times will a little screw be reused. Im gunshy of those little fucks snapping, nothing ruins a day more.

 

[Rocketvapor]

If you have a click style torque device it is easy to apply more torque with each successive application.
The stopping point is when you just feel the click ramp up and snap. Do not go on the the 'stop'.
Good click torque devices, checked and maintained properly will have a hard time meeting 3%, except the 1% Chinese ones

For a torque spec of 10 to 15 inlbs (an example) and you think your device is +/- 3% then your range is 3% higher than the minimum and 3% less than the maximum. Unless in the case of a build procedure that calls out a specific tolerance which would already include tolerance banding.
For precise applications you would do the recommended 'pattern' with 25% torque, then 50%, 75% or so and finally to the 100% torque.
You ALWAYS want the fastener MOVING SLOWLY when you reach final torque.


Eliminating instrument errors, if you applied 12 inlbs to a fastener on Monday, then on Tuesday you applied 12 inlbs, and again on Wednesday, then the resulting maximum torque the fastener would be 12 inlbs. You could hang a one pound mass 12 inches from the centerline of the connector for weeks on end and the most it will see would be 12 inlbs. (Which is how many torque wrenches are calibrated).
Remember to use Mass and not Weight

Fasteners subjected to extreme loads or vibration could loosen. Retorquing would be required periodically. Often they will have cotter pin, or safety wire or self locking features. It's loosening that needs to compensated for. Some use Locktite on little bitty screws, That could cause excessive torque to remove and break a fastener.

Fasteners that see axial loads due to temperature extremes, need to be retorqued as the first heat cycle will seat the threads and compress any gasket material, reducing the torque. Like head bolts on a car engine.

In the case of the AMU, I would 'guess' instrumentation or operator error. Maybe even the 'if 12 is good, 15 is better' mindset.
If they loosened then retightened the itty bitty fasteners over and over then the repeated stretching and relaxing of the fastener and thread could have caused a failure.

When I put on a scope I stay away from the max end of the spec, maybe recheck once after shooting it some, then sleep well from then on.

A late edit:
If your steel fastener threads into Aluminum threads the aluminum threads could be stretched too far, start to fail, and show a low torque.
Continuing will strip the threads completely.
I have a couple of the Warne LR-SKEL 20MOA mounts. All fasteners thread into steel inserts (I guess many others also have steel inserts) The ring torque is 25 inlbs. I think 20 with a calibrated wrench is plenty.


Sorry for the long rambling post. Once I get started typing it's - - - - - - -

Anyway, Matt, keep up the good work and come back and show us your progress.

 

[308pirate]

I can't add any more to what @Rocketvapor said.

 

[308pirate]

The world would come apart if it wasn't for properly designed fastener specifications

And properly programmed tightening systems. Atlas Copco's Power Focus system is my favorite, after using it, Cleco, IR, and Uryu systems.

 

[pmclaine]

If you have a click style torque device it is easy to apply more torque with each successive application.
The stopping point is when you just feel the click ramp up and snap. Do not go on the the 'stop'.
Good click torque devices, checked and maintained properly will have a hard time meeting 3%, except the 1% Chinese ones

For a torque spec of 10 to 15 inlbs (an example) and you think your device is +/- 3% then your range is 3% higher than the minimum and 3% less than the maximum. Unless in the case of a build procedure that calls out a specific tolerance which would already include tolerance banding.
For precise applications you would do the recommended 'pattern' with 25% torque, then 50%, 75% or so and finally to the 100% torque.
You ALWAYS want the fastener MOVING SLOWLY when you reach final torque.


Eliminating instrument errors, if you applied 12 inlbs to a fastener on Monday, then on Tuesday you applied 12 inlbs, and again on Wednesday, then the resulting maximum torque the fastener would be 12 inlbs. You could hang a one pound mass 12 inches from the centerline of the connector for weeks on end and the most it will see would be 12 inlbs. (Which is how many torque wrenches are calibrated).
Remember to use Mass and not Weight

Fasteners subjected to extreme loads or vibration could loosen. Retorquing would be required periodically. Often they will have cotter pin, or safety wire or self locking features. It's loosening that needs to compensated for. Some use Locktite on little bitty screws, That could cause excessive torque to remove and break a fastener.

Fasteners that see axial loads due to temperature extremes, need to be retorqued as the first heat cycle will seat the threads and compress any gasket material, reducing the torque. Like head bolts on a car engine.

In the case of the AMU, I would 'guess' instrumentation or operator error. Maybe even the 'if 12 is good, 15 is better' mindset.
If they loosened then retightened the itty bitty fasteners over and over then the repeated stretching and relaxing of the fastener and thread could have caused a failure.

When I put on a scope I stay away from the max end of the spec, maybe recheck once after shooting it some, then sleep well from then on.

A late edit:
If your steel fastener threads into Aluminum threads the aluminum threads could be stretched too far, start to fail, and show a low torque.
Continuing will strip the threads completely.
I have a couple of the Warne LR-SKEL 20MOA mounts. All fasteners thread into steel inserts (I guess many others also have steel inserts) The ring torque is 25 inlbs. I think 20 with a calibrated wrench is plenty.


Sorry for the long rambling post. Once I get started typing it's - - - - - - -

Anyway, Matt, keep up the good work and come back and show us your progress.

Thank you for the full response regards torque.

and Matt get used to the tangents. The one thing about this place is the tangents.

Here you not only have a torque discussion but some RC helicopter coolness.

 

[MattInFla]

Thank you for the full response regards torque.

and Matt get used to the tangents. The one thing about this place is the tangents.

Here you not only have a torque discussion but some RC helicopter coolness.

No worries at all - sometimes the tangents are highly educational.

Most of the helis the members of our club fly are aerobatic. Here's an example (not me flying, not nearly at that level).

 

[pmclaine]

No worries at all - sometimes the tangents are highly educational.

Most of the helis the members of our club fly are aerobatic. Here's an example (not me flying, not nearly at that level).

That looks like it would be challenging with a shotgun.

 

[MattInFla]

Got back out to the range this morning to do a bit more shooting and try out the rear bag method. It was Florida cold (45) and breezy. Not to bad. Had several 5 shot groups right at or slightly under 1 MOA with Hornady Black 140. A sample:

 

[pmclaine]

Got back out to the range this morning to do a bit more shooting and try out the rear bag method. It was Florida cold (45) and breezy. Not to bad. Had several 5 shot groups right at or slightly under 1 MOA with Hornady Black 140. A sample:

View attachment 7011736

Keep working it, looks good.

Try to get some instruction and prone time from somebody that will help you build a position.

When you feel good position and recoil control you will be able to seek that same feeling on the bench and start making the groups smaller.

 

[Racer88]

Got back out to the range this morning to do a bit more shooting and try out the rear bag method. It was Florida cold (45) and breezy. Not to bad. Had several 5 shot groups right at or slightly under 1 MOA with Hornady Black 140. A sample:

View attachment 7011736

Which group analysis app are you using? I don't recognize this one.

 

[MattInFla]

Ballistics AE on iOS.

 

[MattInFla]

Got back to the range today for some relaxation. Practice definitely helps

Bought a 4 inch AR500 disk, and shot it a few times, but it kept coming off the shepherds hook, so it only took a few rounds. Fixed the mount after I got home, so next time it won’t pop off.

Also got to slap some steel at 300 yards. Very cool - this stuff is addictive!

 

[MattInFla]

And.... another falls down the rabbit hole!

Oh, yeah. And I landed on a chassis:

XLR Element. Super easy install. Feels really nice, can't wait to shoot it.

 

[ShtrRdy]

You're doing really well. Sounds like you have some natural talent. Have fun with that new chassis!

 

[kthomas]

Awesome!

Personally I think Ryan Cleckner is full of a bunch of hot air, just another YouTube personality trying to cash in on the precision rifle craze happening right now. He says a bunch of stupid shit.

What would really accelerate your learning is by taking a precision rifle course with some of the bigger training schools: Rifles Only (my absolute top recommendation), Mile High/Frank Galli, K&M, Altus, etc. This will pay dividends down the road, and take you too the next level.

Happy shooting!

 

[IowaGeologist]

Awesome!

Personally I think Ryan Cleckner is full of a bunch of hot air, just another YouTube personality trying to cash in on the precision rifle craze happening right now. He says a bunch of stupid shit.

What would really accelerate your learning is by taking a precision rifle course with some of the bigger training schools: Rifles Only (my absolute top recommendation), Mile High/Frank Galli, K&M, Altus, etc. This will pay dividends down the road, and take you too the next level.

Happy shooting!

Yes, the former Ranger Sniper Team Leader who was hired by the National Shooting Sports Foundation to do instructional videos is just a YouTube personality full of hot air....


"He completed basic training, airborne school, and the Ranger Indoctrination Program (RIP) to make his way into the U.S. Army’s elite 1st Ranger Battallion of the 75th Ranger Regiment.

In the Rangers, Ryan found his niche as a special operations sniper and sniper team leader. He was fortuante to attend many military schools to include the world’s premier sniper school, the Special Operations Target Indterdication Course, the Primary Leadership Development Course where he was voted “Best Leader” by his peers and was an honor graduate, the French Alpine Mountaineering Course of which he was in the first group of Americans to ever graduate, and Emergency Medical Technician (EMT-I) school after which he became a Nationally Registered EMT.

After two combat deployments to Afghanistan, Ryan was ready to return home and continue his college education. While attending school, Ryan worked for years as a sniper instructor for military and police snipers. He also taught outdoor-related classes at a local community college."

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