Nosler 175 RDF.

[Darkside-Six]

For those of you shooting 175 RDF’s in your .308’s what are you seating them at? I’ve heard a lot of guys say in the past that this is a very forgiving bullet but I haven’t been having too good of luck with them yet. I’ve only ever shot 175smk for years but recently bought a box of these because they’re a lot cheaper and have a better BC. I started out doing load development and seated them just inside mag length but still had problems feeding them so have kept pushing them back until they would feed but now it seems they’re all over the place and I’m wondering if my loads are getting compressed with how long they are. Using Lapua brass and 43.3 IMR 4064.


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[spife7980]

Well the easy way to tell if it’s compressed is to listen for the crunch as you seat or shake them and listen for the powder rattling around inside. Have you measured to see how far off the lands you are exactly?

 

[Silverjay]

I seat them mag length over XBR8208 in LC Brass, don’t recall the exact charge. Feed fine and group just over 1/2 moa.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Well the easy way to tell if it’s compressed is to listen for the crunch as you seat or shake them and listen for the powder rattling around inside. Have you measured to see how far off the lands you are exactly?

0.106 off.


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[Pfiddy]

Are you shooting a factory chamber?

 

[308pirate]

For those of you shooting 175 RDF’s in your .308’s what are you seating them at? I’ve heard a lot of guys say in the past that this is a very forgiving bullet but I haven’t been having too good of luck with them yet. I’ve only ever shot 175smk for years but recently bought a box of these because they’re a lot cheaper and have a better BC. I started out doing load development and seated them just inside mag length but still had problems feeding them so have kept pushing them back until they would feed but now it seems they’re all over the place and I’m wondering if my loads are getting compressed with how long they are. Using Lapua brass and 43.3 IMR 4064.

I'm seating mine at around 2.865 to the tip. They feed flawlessly out of Alpha and Magpul magazines, not so much out of an MDT metal mag (but it's the mag's problem). They also group crazy tight and can easily clean an F class target. I too use Lapua brass but 42.5 of Ramshot TAC (what a great powder). TAC being a ball powder, no issues with compression. BTW the rifle is a Howa 1500 in an KRG 180-xray, if that helps.

 

[NukeMMC]

For those of you shooting 175 RDF’s in your .308’s what are you seating them at? I’ve heard a lot of guys say in the past that this is a very forgiving bullet but I haven’t been having too good of luck with them yet. I’ve only ever shot 175smk for years but recently bought a box of these because they’re a lot cheaper and have a better BC. I started out doing load development and seated them just inside mag length but still had problems feeding them so have kept pushing them back until they would feed but now it seems they’re all over the place and I’m wondering if my loads are getting compressed with how long they are. Using Lapua brass and 43.3 IMR 4064.


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Not sure what you're pushing them thru, whether bolt or gasser. Your load seems pretty warm for a gas gun. I run 42.4gr of 4064 in a LC Match case (similar to Lapua) for my SMK load to give me 2650fps, same as M118LR and FGMM 175 in my 20" suppressed AR10, Wilson 1:10" with a JGS match chamber. It also happens to be where my rifle is most accurate. Same with 43.3gr of RL15 or Varget.

I have a couple thousand more SMKs to run thru but have been thinking about trying the RDFs for future loads.

 

[Darkside-Six]

I’m running them through a bolt gun. Rem 700. Chamber is good, rifle was built by Moon (Crescent Customs) and shot 175 SMk’s great. I’m thinking it may be the mag I was using. I’ve been using the same 10 rd AICS mag that’s been in my range bag and even yesterday after I had pushed them back further from my last range trip a couple didn’t feed. I switched to my 5 rd mag and had no problems. I’m going to play with seating depth and try my other mags and see what happens.


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[flyright]

43.0 Varget, 2.82 = .25 moa in my DT SRS and 1/2 - 3/4 moa in my LMT. Awesome to have a single load for a gasser and a bolt. Now, sorting brass is a little trickier.

 

[winniedonkey]

LC match brass
2.865ish (off top of head, can't remember CBTO at moment)
44gr.=2650 w/22"....11.25 5r
Obviously in the .0001s all the time

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[Darkside-Six]

Thanks for the info guys. I figured out why I was having problems getting these to group. turns out my scope rail was a little loose. took everything off and tightened it back up and they're grouping inside of an inch with that load.

 

[squib-load]

my experience with them has been horrid... however one caveat is that I am using blems.. now SPS shooters pro shop sells these with the expressed statement that its cosmetic only and it will not effect preformance.. well that is just a flat out lie and after contacting them, they have done nothing to make it right. this is not simple chipped tips or discoloration .. they are mal formed

what I have are 3 different lots 1586, 1600 and cant remember the third, from them and 3 different shaped bullets.. worse.. some lots are mixed. I bough 1000 first time.. all the same lot 1586 and the second order of 1000 was 9 boxes of 1600 and one box of XXXX cant recall.


when measuring base to ojive using the 30 comparitor they are close.. between lots but here is where things were getting weird.

when I was using a coal seating gauge (hornady) I was getting vastly different numbers with 5 bulltets. off by as much as .010 .. yeah.. thats right and not a typo. When I was getting seating irregularity I was checking the seating plug clearance etc.. and that was fine.. this is why they werent seating to the same depth, they bullet seating plug was touching the bullet .010 higher on some than others.

so I started looking at the bullets more closely using comparitors of decreasing caliber up the ojive/tangen/secant curve of the bullet and what I found was eye opening... there are 2 completely different shapped bullets in the 1586 box.. and the base to measured diameter of each up the bullet were .010 +/- a thou or 2 longer on some bullets than the other.. that would explain why they were not seating to the same BTO in my press and that would also explian why they were contacting the lands with a different COAL measurement.

worse.. they group like shit... well acually they dont group at all

separating out the 'long' and 'short' as I called them into piles and trying to load that way didnt yeald any better results.. there were no clear nodes from 42 grains of 4064 up to 44.9 grains in lapua brass.

lot ending in 1586 had mixed long and short.. and 1600 were all the 'long' ogive. The other lott, which number escapes me, was all 'shorts'... so at some point they must have realized they have an issue or 2 or more different shaped toolings. yet they sell this crap anyway.

the schieder barrel was cut with a nice tight camber with a palma 95 reamer to give the RDF a nice .030 jump at aics mag length of 2.86/2.88 ish I have not tried suffing them down and jumping them a mile but might have to.

the barrel one holes sierra, hornady, and berger 168s with 43.2 of 4064 in 10x+ fired LCLR and FC brass

the barrel prints nice 1/2 groups of 175 sierras in LCLR brass with 43.5-43.8 4064 with the same velocity or a tad more as factory FGMM 7.62 and nice high magnetto velocities of 2740 for factory to 2790 for handloads with no pressure.. since in this chamber the 175 smk is touching lands at 2.81 COAL factory lengths. yeah.. thats smoking ..

I probably have 2000 scrap metal bullets at this point as I am convinced they will never shoot well.. and I will NEVER buy from Shooters pro shop or NOSLER again..as even after I called and presented these numbers.. they didnt do anything about it.. even sent in exemplar bullets and never heard back... as SPS is thier operation to flush subpar stock...

I have bought quite a lot of bullets from SPS in the past and they shot OK.. 77CC and some 175 CC (never shot as good as sierras) 190CC to use a dirt cheap 300blk subs, etc.. but the 175 RDF has been horrible.

there have been other threads that have complained about RDF having grouped with one lott and cant find a group with another.. here is the first place to look.

I used 30. 7mm, 6.5mm 6mm etc inserts on down all the way up the tangent / secant of these and they are way different.

 

[Darkside-Six]

my experience with them has been horrid... however one caveat is that I am using blems.. now SPS shooters pro shop sells these with the expressed statement that its cosmetic only and it will not effect preformance.. well that is just a flat out lie and after contacting them, they have done nothing to make it right. this is not simple chipped tips or discoloration .. they are mal formed

what I have are 3 different lots 1586, 1600 and cant remember the third, from them and 3 different shaped bullets.. worse.. some lots are mixed. I bough 1000 first time.. all the same lot 1586 and the second order of 1000 was 9 boxes of 1600 and one box of XXXX cant recall.


when measuring base to ojive using the 30 comparitor they are close.. between lots but here is where things were getting weird.

when I was using a coal seating gauge (hornady) I was getting vastly different numbers with 5 bulltets. off by as much as .010 .. yeah.. thats right and not a typo. When I was getting seating irregularity I was checking the seating plug clearance etc.. and that was fine.. this is why they werent seating to the same depth, they bullet seating plug was touching the bullet .010 higher on some than others.

so I started looking at the bullets more closely using comparitors of decreasing caliber up the ojive/tangen/secant curve of the bullet and what I found was eye opening... there are 2 completely different shapped bullets in the 1586 box.. and the base to measured diameter of each up the bullet were .010 +/- a thou or 2 longer on some bullets than the other.. that would explain why they were not seating to the same BTO in my press and that would also explian why they were contacting the lands with a different COAL measurement.

worse.. they group like shit... well acually they dont group at all

separating out the 'long' and 'short' as I called them into piles and trying to load that way didnt yeald any better results.. there were no clear nodes from 42 grains of 4064 up to 44.9 grains in lapua brass.

lot ending in 1586 had mixed long and short.. and 1600 were all the 'long' ogive. The other lott, which number escapes me, was all 'shorts'... so at some point they must have realized they have an issue or 2 or more different shaped toolings. yet they sell this crap anyway.

the schieder barrel was cut with a nice tight camber with a palma 95 reamer to give the RDF a nice .030 jump at aics mag length of 2.86/2.88 ish I have not tried suffing them down and jumping them a mile but might have to.

the barrel one holes sierra, hornady, and berger 168s with 43.2 of 4064 in 10x+ fired LCLR and FC brass

the barrel prints nice 1/2 groups of 175 sierras in LCLR brass with 43.5-43.8 4064 with the same velocity or a tad more as factory FGMM 7.62 and nice high magnetto velocities of 2740 for factory to 2790 for handloads with no pressure.. since in this chamber the 175 smk is touching lands at 2.81 COAL factory lengths. yeah.. thats smoking ..

I probably have 2000 scrap metal bullets at this point as I am convinced they will never shoot well.. and I will NEVER buy from Shooters pro shop or NOSLER again..as even after I called and presented these numbers.. they didnt do anything about it.. even sent in exemplar bullets and never heard back... as SPS is thier operation to flush subpar stock...

I have bought quite a lot of bullets from SPS in the past and they shot OK.. 77CC and some 175 CC (never shot as good as sierras) 190CC to use a dirt cheap 300blk subs, etc.. but the 175 RDF has been horrible.

there have been other threads that have complained about RDF having grouped with one lott and cant find a group with another.. here is the first place to look.

I used 30. 7mm, 6.5mm 6mm etc inserts on down all the way up the tangent / secant of these and they are way different.

Well I've defiantly been banging my head against the wall with these things. Whenever I have shitty groups I always blame myself first but this has been frustrating I will have one group of 5 be a nice tight group all within an inch and the next group of 5 will be scattered all over. I took apart my rifle and re tightened everything from the rail to the action screws to make sure it wasn't that. Haven't had a chance to get back out and shoot it yet but I'm not sure what to expect. I keep hearing these are a very forgiving bullet but I'm starting to think my gun just don't like them. never had this problem with 175 smk's.

 

[squib-load]

also these are either very thin jacket or slightly undersized dia becasue they run 30-50 fps slower than smk for equal loads...

 

[squib-load]

if it werent for nosler screwing my out of a couple hundred bucks for 2k of bullets that should have only been cosmetic blems.. I would buy a box of 100 that are not blems and measure them but at this piont its probably sionara nosler and never looking back far too many bullet makers that stand behind their products to deal with these people

 

[SporterII]

I have burned thru 400 'blems,
as to seating depth, My chamber is factory Remington 5r. Single feeding sorted bullets at 2.830" 100 yd. groups 1.25 ctr to ctr are possible and steel past 600yds is elusive.
175 FGMM brings the groups under .5".
Tried the RDF at 2.80 in the BDL and shot 1.5"". Again 5 factory printed ,25" for 4 and .5" with the fifth.
Federal cases, Winchester cases, Varget and 210m.
I have 100 left and will load some long ( notched reciever 2.90" length). Run them 2700 and see if they are worth any more time in my gun.

 

[308pirate]

I'm seating mine at around 2.865 to the tip. They feed flawlessly out of Alpha and Magpul magazines, not so much out of an MDT metal mag (but it's the mag's problem). They also group crazy tight and can easily clean an F class target. I too use Lapua brass but 42.5 of Ramshot TAC (what a great powder). TAC being a ball powder, no issues with compression. BTW the rifle is a Howa 1500 in an KRG 180-xray, if that helps.

Update: shot a 600 yd prone practice match yesterday. I got put on the F class end of the line. Best 20 round string was 195-4X, with the first ten rounds 100-2X. This shooting off an Atlas bipod and a small TAB rear bag (hardly competitive F-TR equipment).

The F class ten ring is .96 MOA. I like the 175 RDFs

 

[squib-load]

308pirate

yeah.. I am highly sceptical of a 195 using tac... and any load with tac is good for about a 15 to 20 degree atmosphiric varience because its not very temp stable.. well over 2 fps per degree in my usage for mk262 77 grain loads. and chamber temp from start of string to end is enough to increase my velocities over 50 fps ...

with your load length and light charge in a big lapua case that powder probably sloshes around pretty good as it cant possible fill the case so your ES and SD cant be very tight...

it all just sounds ... goofy..

 

[squib-load]

SporterII

I am going to load the remainder in some 3" shotshells.. they will probably group better out of my benelli ...

perhaps send them back to nosler with a note to tell them where they can put their bullets....

 

[308pirate]

308pirate

yeah.. I am highly sceptical of a 195 using tac... and any load with tac is good for about a 15 to 20 degree atmosphiric varience because its not very temp stable.. well over 2 fps per degree in my usage for mk262 77 grain loads. and chamber temp from start of string to end is enough to increase my velocities over 50 fps ...

with your load length and light charge in a big lapua case that powder probably sloshes around pretty good as it cant possible fill the case so your ES and SD cant be very tight...

it all just sounds ... goofy..

Makes no difference to me if you believe the score or not. As far as temp stability, I have not seen any zero change between the mid 50s and the mid 30s which is the temp range I've used that powder over so far.

 

[squib-load]

308pirate yeah.. shooting high master scores and claiming easy cleans with a howa 1500 and TAC I am going to put that into internet commando territory... not saying it cant be done because one in a million wouldnt be a phrase if it didnt happen every now and then...

 

[squib-load]

SporterII let us know how that goes.. my ladder as it closed in on 44.9g of 4060 / lapua began to show tightening of the 'group' and velocities of 2760 with sd of 17 but that seems to me at least of getting a bit too warm a load.. granted they are loaded out to 2.88 COAL still with a .030 jump in the shortest 308 chamber.. a palma 95 chamber, but it just seems excessive...

meanwhile I am getting 2740 with smk in a LCLR case at 2.81 using only 43.8grains of 4060 and shooting one ragged hole groups at .4 - .6 .. if I can get these under a half MOA I would consider it good but I am not going to blow up the action to get it there !! hehe since the palma 95 has very little freebore like .050 .. the smk at 2.81 COAL is just touching the lands.. no jump.. hence the nice velocity boost...

I dont know how anyone can shoot RDF without significant jump in any chamber at AICS mag length of 2.9 or less .. the leade would have to go into the neck haha...

I might also back down to 44.3 4060 in lapua which is another known accuracy node for that poweder showing very low sd and just start pushing the bullet into the case until I get up to .100 jump or more but at a .030 jump which nosler said should be optimal it is a non starter, and I cant jump shorter without going single load..and that is in one of the shortest leade chambers made for 308

 

[308pirate]

308pirate yeah.. shooting high master scores and claiming easy cleans with a howa 1500 and TAC I am going to put that into internet commando territory... not saying it cant be done because one in a million wouldnt be a phrase if it didnt happen every now and then...

Like I said, I don't really care about what you believe or not. I'm nobody as far as you're concerned and you're nobody as far as I'm concerned.

 

[squib-load]

flyright is your load in lapua or mil brass?

 

[BurnOut]

I may be missing something, but I'm not sure that I see the purpose of this projectile when the 178 ELD-X is available. By comparison, the ELD-X offers somewhat better BC numbers (.270 G7 for the RDF to .278 G7 for the ELD-X) and a very slightly lower price ($.02/round at Midway, at least in the 100 count boxes). Even if you're not hunting (which is the purpose of the ELD-X line, obviously), the Hornady seems to offer a better option in this caliber/weight class than does the Nosler.

I s'pose, though, that options are nice, and if for whatever reason you can't get the ELD-X to shoot in your gun, there's always the option of the RDF... but when working up a load for my 30 caliber cartridges, I'm going to start with the ELD-X (for the reasons stated above) and only look at the RDF if I have to.

Just my $.02...

 

[308pirate]

I'm testing a load with the Hornady 178 ELD-M. It looks good at 100 yds but so far the results at 600 have not been too promising. Too many off call shots with them when the RDF load did not miss the ten ring unless I shanked it out.

I might play with seating depth but it has to fit in a magazine so options are limited there. Truthfully I will take stellar accuracy over a marginally better BC any day and twice on Sunday.

 

[BurnOut]

I'm testing a load with the Hornady 178 ELD-M. It looks good at 100 yds but so far the results at 600 have not been too promising. Too many off call shots with them when the RDF load did not miss the ten ring unless I shanked it out.

I might play with seating depth but it has to fit in a magazine so options are limited there. Truthfully I will take stellar accuracy over a marginally better BC any day and twice on Sunday.

Interesting... I have to wonder what might explain this. Marginal stability for the Hornady projectile, perhaps? Out of curiosity, what twist barrel are you running?

Re: preference for accuracy vs. BC, no doubt about it.

 

[308pirate]

Interesting... I have to wonder what might explain this. Marginal stability for the Hornady projectile, perhaps? Out of curiosity, what twist barrel are you running?

Re: preference for accuracy vs. BC, no doubt about it.

Barrel is 1/12. No doubt about stability. This was a KD shoot with pits, my shooting buddy was pulling for me. All bullets entered straight in. Not every rifle likes every load, simple as that.

 

[Darkside-Six]

I may be missing something, but I'm not sure that I see the purpose of this projectile when the 178 ELD-X is available. By comparison, the ELD-X offers somewhat better BC numbers (.270 G7 for the RDF to .278 G7 for the ELD-X) and a very slightly lower price ($.02/round at Midway, at least in the 100 count boxes). Even if you're not hunting (which is the purpose of the ELD-X line, obviously), the Hornady seems to offer a better option in this caliber/weight class than does the Nosler.

I s'pose, though, that options are nice, and if for whatever reason you can't get the ELD-X to shoot in your gun, there's always the option of the RDF... but when working up a load for my 30 caliber cartridges, I'm going to start with the ELD-X (for the reasons stated above) and only look at the RDF if I have to.

Just my $.02...

When I looked at the possibility of finally switching bullets from the Sierra 175 smk I looked at both and at the time the RDF were significantly cheaper per 500. I never had an issue with the SMk’s but if there was a better option with better BC for the same or less money then I figured I’d check it out. If I continue to have issues with the RDF then I’m just going to scrap them and move on. May look at the 178’s in the future


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[Iamero]

Not sure how the 175 RDF differs from the 175 CC, but I am running mine at 2.790" (I believe this is just under mag length and definitely a jump to the lands) with 40.6gr of H4895. Out of a 20" barrel and a suppressor I am getting an average of 2660 (which is almost exactly where FGMM 175 SMK ammo falls) and 3/4" groups.

I don't know if it was mentioned above, but ASC makes a mag with OAL of 2.865" if you need to get the bullets out a little farther than the magpul or similar allow (I know DPMS is 2.810").

 

[squib-load]

308pirateBurnOut is correct into calling stability into question ... just because a bullet isnt keyholing doesnt mean its at its ideal or even close to its miller stability factor. the bullet while not yawing significanly enough for you to claim its not keyholing may likely and very well be, precessing, and or exibitinhg nutation .. if you dont know what those are ... that is your homework assignment.

hornady specifies a 1/12 as a minimum twist and since this bullet can be run in 30-06 and 300 win amonst others, which can push them faster.. it might work there ... but it has relitivly poor numbers in a 1/12 twist at 308 velocities.

utilizing hornady numbers for length, bc, weight, etc you get the following from a miller stability calculator.

SG = 1.16 Bullet BC (G7): .278 Adjusted BC for 1 in 12" Twist:0.250 Your BC is being compromised by: 10% Minimum Twist Recommended: 1 in 10.5"

an SG below a 1.5 is considered marginally stable and below 1.0 .. unstable..


using another calculator that takes into account plastic tip length you get

Stability Input Data Caliber: 0.308 in Bullet Weight: 178.0 gr Bullet Length: 1.420 in Plastic Tip Length: 0.172 in Muzzle Velocity: 2650.0 ft/s Barrel Twist: 12.0 in Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg Output Data Stability: 1.472

you would have to drive this bullet over 2800 fps in a 1/12 at sea level 60 degrees to get a 1.5 stability ...

Stability
Input Data
Caliber:	0.308 in	Bullet Weight:	178.0 gr
Bullet Length:	1.420 in	Plastic Tip Length:	0.172 in
Muzzle Velocity:	2800.0 ft/s	Barrel Twist:	12.0 in
Temperature:	59.0 °F	Pressure:	29.92 in Hg
Output Data
Stability:	1.499

a bullets stability will weaken at distance as its rotational speed decreases especially in a crosswind and further destabilize and since manufactureres calculate BC for a bullet while its being adequately stabilized, which yours are not, it looses some of that published BC about 10% by the look of it in a 1/12.. goiong back into the stability caclulator with the reduced BC would further reduce your stability factor.


it can also be a whole host of other reasons why they are not shooting.. some rifles just dont like certain rounds.. its a fact.. 2 different chambers in the same rifle might not like the same bullet... but to offhand dismiss stability is without merrit.


moreover I contend that most peoples issues with the RDF stem more from the fact that the dies that nosler are using for this bullet are flawed or they are not operating their machinery correctly as its been proven and measured that they are turning out lots with bullets of 2 different dimensions in the 175.. some lots they are mixed and in latter lots they are segregated which leads me to conclude they know they are turning out crap and have been called on it yet do nothing to fix it or make it right..

even IF you can get a load to shoot the RDF well, it may not with the next box.

having bullets where the ogive and its secant/tanget curve vary by .010 of an inch is a unacceptable .. having shot 10s of thousands of SMK and not having to tweek a load... ever.. between bullet lots is why sierra sells metric shit tons of them

I dont know if they are having the same issues with the other calibers in the RDF series but its a FACT that their 308 bullets that are being sold by Shooters pro shop are flawed

 

[squib-load]

Iamero you are running RDF 175s at an overall lenght of 2.79? .. you must be jumping them a mile and a half... and I bet the ogive is below the case neck

in my rifle with a very short lead of only .040 .. the SMK touches the lands at 2.815 and the RDF touches lands at 2.91 . If I were to run them at 2.79 I would be jumping them 130 thou...

if my rifle was a factory chamber it would be double that...

 

[308pirate]

I dont know if they are having the same issues with the other calibers in the RDF series but its a FACT that their 308 bullets that are being sold by Shooters pro shop are flawed

That isn't where I get mine. Possibly that may be why I don't seem to have issues with 175 RDFs

 

[squib-load]

Darkside-Six I used the same logic when I got into the RDF. I assumed like their 175 CC they would be slightly less uniform than the SMK.. but with the published BC and using them for tactical matches more than shooting groups in FClass I figured it would be a good fit and that buying in a larger batch might mitigate lot to lot issues.. but it is clear that nosler were or are still having issues producing them and they should never have sold these lots.. they should have been scrapped.. if someone was running a ragged edge load.. which competitive shooters do.. with these bullets pushing another .010 of an inch into the powder space from one lot to another... that change could lead to a catastrophic rifle dissasembly ...

 

[SporterII]

Loaded some long and got to the range this AM. FGMM brass x2, 210M, 43.5 Varget, 2.910oal +/- .010. Was going to load 43.2 but the oal looked like the 43.5 was a good option.
Sorted tip lengths and took the closest six of twelve to shoot a group, six to chrono w/ magneto.
This is my stopping point and will be filling all the fired FGMM with this load.
2665, 8/19 from the magneto.
Six at 95yds. fired the sixth because I knew I pulled one.bipod and sock, prone. Lowest hole was called :

 

[squib-load]

SporterII

barrel length, chamber, jump distance to lands...

so this is with sorted loads... try shooting a 10 shot group with 5 of each into the same target loaded the exact same way without chaning your seating die. .. lets see that group.

I should not have to sort bullets to get 1/2 inch accuracy for tactical shooting.. now if I were going for benchrest records that might be a different deal.. but I can get .3 groups from berger and occaisionally a good batch of sierras .. which regularly print less than .6.

either way.. I am willing to bet that bullets with 2 completly different shapes will not have the same BC ... and even if this load can print like this at 95yards.. it would look much worst at 950 plus.. which is the game that I am in.

I can shoot rocks from my barrel and hit a target at 95... its keeping a .5 moa or less waterline at 1000 that I am after.

 

[SporterII]

Wow. I posted what I have. You showed interest. No ax to grind, just contributing what I have. Totally casual.
Peace, out.
ETA; my earlier post, the one you responded to, Described a factory 5r.

 

[squib-load]

SporterII not calling you out or grinding an ax .. just trying to get a better idea of your load and its repeatible accuracy.

I can cherrypick a 5-6 shot group of sorted bullets but it doesnt represent the true accuracy of the box of bullets or the load since the unsorted bullets will print far worse... worse still at a 10 round group that will show weaknesses that a 3-5 round group wont.

I have no idea how deep the throat is cut on your factory 5r.. neither does remington as they vary by a wide margin hence asking what your jump is at your current coal of 2.91

you state that your coal is varying by .010 (ten thou) which backs up my observation that the bullets have at least 2 different dies.. but your group is sorted and only represents one of them. that is my point.. if you were to shoot the mixed into a 10 shot or more group you would get a far better picture of the loads accuracy... and the bullets inherent capabilities

for those of us that load close to the lands in match chambers... a 10 thou variance of seating depth and bullet engravement is huge.. touching vs 10 thou off can change the way the load prints significantly .. so I think that those here that are jumping them a mile are not noticing the difference in seating depths as greatly on paper..

additionally, those that seem to be having any luck with these are loading them at low velocity nodes which are wider and more tolerant of a 10 thou difference in powder space intrusion. which reduces the advantage of having a high BC long range bullet... I can run sierra 175s to 2750 with tight groups but if I have to run the RDF at 2650 to get the same group size, its kind of a wash at longer range.

anyway.. point being is since you are set on your load and said you will be filling all your remaining cases with it.. I am mearly asking for you to post your next 10 round group of unsorted loads and lets see how it does...

 

[SporterII]

I mentioned tip length. Not powder intrusion just to clarify.
I also have limited resources including a place to shoot. No cherry pick. I posted completely.
I must also verify I do not shoot at your level.
Hard to tell precisely how far they still jump. Sure was easy to add .110". Believe there is a ton left
I will try to get random 10 made. I need to chrono the final batch anyway.
when possible

 

[dgheriani]

I've put a bit more than 2400 175 RDFs through my match rifle since April and most have been blems. 5 round groups average in the .6s. 43.3 gr Varget in LC brass with BR2s. Bullets seated at 2.175" to the ogive. 2750fps out of a 26" Benchmark barrel, ES of 12, SD of 4 (that was today but those numbers have been stable throughout). I also have run into the issue of different bullet "shapes" even in the same lot but I just run my seater die set up for the longer bullets and measure every round to the ogive and reseat the ones that are longer. It's time consuming but I'm cheap and the BC on these is good. I went straight from load dev at 200 yards to zero at 100 and and verified dope out to 980 and it was bang on without having to tweak MV or BC.

 

[squib-load]

Here is a target using 43.7 4064 ( an accurcy load that shoots all 175 and 168 bullets from this rifle under an inch) sorted with 'shorts' on top and 'longs' on the bottom .. seated 2.172 which is 2.86ish COAL in lapua 2x winds were light at 4-6 kts and you can see the vertical and horizontal issues with this load. velocity was ~2680 based off of magneto groups fired prevously with this powder load. these groups were with magneto off since the magnetto throws my rounds .9 mil higher on target.. yeah.. 4" at 100 ..

the barel profile is modified MTU 24" scheider with a .91 at the muzzle.

shot on the same day as foulers were a load of 43.2 4064 berger 168 and grouped .4 for 8x then fired these 2 groups.






dgheriani well it sounds promising however I have yet to get this schnieder barrel to eat them

so to be clear.. you are setting up the seating for the bullets to 2.175 adj the seater for the shorter bullets..? basically seating them twice to get the same CBTO

What I have found (see below) is that the 'long' bullets touch my rifling with much greater varance CBTO than the shorts...

what kind of jump are you looking at and what chamber is your benchmark cut for. What is your powder of choice with these?

2750 is moving out even for a 26" barrel .. I dont get 2750 ish in this tight, fast, schneider (shoots 175GMM factory 100+FPS higher than book ~2760 magnetto) until I get to 44.9g of 4064. It was about 50F that day and while no pressure signs in lapua on that day, not sure what it will look like in aug in 100+ heat. usually once I get above 44+ g of 4064 its usually better for me to move to varget, which I have yet to try but perhaps 45 of varget will get me the same velocity node and do so with slightly less pressure which has been the norm loading with thise 2 differrent powders.

so, to be clear you are not seeing 2 distinctly different groups at 980? are you even shooting for groups at that distance or just banging a 2+ moa plate at that range?

again I was planning on using the same bullet for F as I do for PRS, and so far, this bullet isnt it. its back to sierra or berger until nosler can figure out their issues with the 175RDF..


as an asside here are more technical details.. detailing 3x of each 'shape' found in the 3 different lots that I have... one lot has these mixed, one lot is all 'long' and another lot is all short. So after I sent this info to nosler last year ( and never heard back) or shooters pro shop not willing to take these "COSMETIC ONLY' bullets back leaving me with $500 in scrap metal...but given that in later lots they are segregating them leads me to believe they know they HAVE A PROBLEM and are SCREWING US THE CUSTOMER....

here it is...

starting from tip to base using various diameter comparitors working down the hybrid curve of the bullet jacket ending at the .28 measurement.


Comp dia used diff of the 'short' bullet using the long as ref distance



.22 ---- -.008 +/- .001

.24 ----- -.008

.25 ----- -.010

.27 ----- -.007 +/- .004

.28 ----- -.006

.30 ----- +/- .002


CBTO seated into my chamber variance (cartridge base to ogive)
‘short’ ‘Long’

2.208 2.220
2.207 2.197
2.208 2.210

So I was going off the belief that the 'long' ogive bullets were the ref, but its clear their is far less variance on the 'short' seating near identical COAL with the hornady tool were the 'long' has a variance of over .023 that 23 thou in the 'sorted' long bullets.. this is because the ojive isnt touching the rifling first but the tangent/secant nose curve of the bullet.


Weight ES .4 grain

Bullet BTO with a .25 comparator which is just about where the land engraving surface is for comparison

'short' 'long'

.870 .879
.870 .8795
.8705 .8775

ES .0005 .0015 so 3x more ES


So I was going off the belief that the 'long' ogive bullets were the ref, but its clear their is far less variance on the 'short' seating near identical COAL with the hornady tool were the 'long' has a variance of over .023 that 23 thou in the 'sorted' long bullets.. this is because the ojive isnt touching the rifling first but the tangent/secant nose curve of the bullet.







So clearly.. its more likely that the 'short' are the more uniform and likely the designed shape for the bullet die, and that the 'long' rounds are the bullets coming out of the flawed die or machine that is not forming them completely. Its possible that its the company providing the jackets vs the swaging operation but either way.. its shit.


this would be alot more definitive if I were still in the service. I would just take them over to the NDI shop and have a couple dozen run under the laser comparitor

but its clear with these measurements that getting any consistency with loads using these bullets is just pure luck or a very 'forgiving' rifle that just has a super wide node for this particular load


seating these anywhere near the lands is impossible as the CBTO for touch varies between 2.197 to 2.220 .. and that is just with 6 bullets.. if I opened up the sample size it would get worse not better. 23 thou is a huge varience when a 5 thou seating depth change can take you out of a sweet spot even with a berger hybrid.


I cant get this editor to hold my formatting of data so just bear with it...

 

[308pirate]

Maybe you should stop buying seconds and rejects to save a couple of bucks.

 

[dgheriani]

squib-load Sorry, I added my load info into my previous post. 43.3 gr Varget in a LC case with BR2 primers. No signs of pressure and that's been the case from 100 this summer down to the 35ish degrees it's been recently. FWIW out of the 2400 or so RDFs I've shot, 500 weren't blems and I found zero difference, performance-wise. I'll have to look through my notes later today but I think my OAL to the ogive of 2.175" gives me about 30 thou of jump. My chamber was cut with a reamer optimized for 175gr FGMM, according to the smith. I verified dope on paper out to 465 and that load stayed below 0.75 MOA. I wasn't shooting for groups at 980 but I did verify on steel at 690 (10" plate), 769 (12"), 830 (2/3 ipsc), 940 (16"), 980 (16"). My hits, once I got the wind sorted were centered up, I didn't measure them but the plate is only 1.6 MOA so I'd say the group of 5 was at or under 1 MOA. As an aside, I was never able to get the RDFs to shoot in my old backup gun, which was a factory Rem 700 20" that would shoot a load with 178 gr Amax sub-MOA. I've talked to other shooters I know who just couldn't get them to shoot, period. It seems your barrel likes em, or doesn't.

 

[squib-load]

dgheriani thanks for sharing the addl notes..

2750 with only 43.3 of varget is smoking.. and I thought I had a tight bore and chamber. is that magneto or optical?

I have about .030 jump with my current seating depth (same as yours) and I have a palma 95 chamber which has the 175 touching lands at 2.81 COAL.... very short freebore, its really too tight for 175s and works beter with 168s but used this chamber specifically to get a sweetspot of .020 to .030 jump with this bullet but it is just not a consistent bullet..

the 175s since they are just off a jam at 2.81 in a factory FGMM 7.62 load shoot at 2760 which is 100fps faster than my more generous palma beasly chamber, and on average just over .5 but since the RDF has to jump and it seems like a slow bullet compared to a hornady or sierra.. probably softer, it will require potentially higher loads than I have been using to get it into a node, if there even is one but doesnt seem like its prone to pressure at those loads either.

I might abandon lapua brass with this bullet as well since it stits out long in the case I really dont need all that volume and can get the same velocity in the LC case with .3 - .5 grains less powder.

 

[squib-load]

308pirate while not a constuctive post I figure I will add to it.. I bought them becasue they were advertised as cosometic issues only that would not affect performance.. I dont consider physical differences in bullet weight, shape or ogive to be just blemished but thanks for your useless opinion.

now go back to shooting 195s with your JC penny 1500 howa...

I will say that since Shooter Pro Shop SPS has now been shown to lie blatently about the quality of the shit they are selling, I will agree that Nosler, shooters Pro shop will not be getting more business because of their known track record for mis representing not only the BC of their bullets on more than one occasion but now the issue with these RDF blems and not doing anything to make it right, not just for me, but the others here that have contacted them to return them...

 

[308pirate]

now go back to shooting 195s with your JC penny 1500 howa...

Chaps your ass, doesn't it?

 

[squib-load]

308pirate nope.. because you are full of it... I shoot with some very excellent marksmen both civilian and military and your claim that your howa with TAC powder loads regularly cleans F Class targets is so much crap I have to wear boots to read it.. by the way.. cleaning a target means not dropping any points.. a 195 best score for the day is not a cleaned target.. so your claim that your rifle and your load cleans targets all day long just goes to further prove you are not a reliable source of information but yet another keyboard commando that has no idea what they are talking about.

how does that scan...

 

[dgheriani]

squib-load my pleasure. MVs are using a Magneto sporter.

 

[918v]

Any luck getting them to shoot?