NPA and Recoil Management

[McReef]

First, I do realize there is a very similar thread going right now, but I don’t want to hijack, and my situation is a bit different (I believe).

I think I am getting pretty dialed in as far as squaring up to my rifle. I have seen a marked improvement in accuracy/consistency since really looking at this and combining that with constantly checking my npa.

I get some hop from recoil, but it is more vertical than left or right. It seems my rifle settles maybe 6” high (@ 100yds) after each shot. Does this immediately pop to mind any obvious mistake I might be making?

My muzzle used to hop all over the range before I started working on correcting the way I got squared up behind the gun, now it is much better. It moves very little side to side, but the vertical movement has me puzzled.

Any thoughts?

 

[Rocketvapor]

Picture of your setup, bags, bipod, 300WM or .223?

 

[McReef]

Right, probably a bit light on details there...

I’ll get a pic of setup when I get home. For now, I am shooting 6.5CM from a Tikka Tac A1, prone, with an Atlas bipod, and just a rear bag.

Thanks.

 

[_Raining]

How much muscle are you putting into the rear bag to get your elevation set? You might be releasing the tension you have in the bag during/after the shot and that will drop the stock or you could be pushing down harder on the cheek piece during/after the shot.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Hard surface? bipod hop?
Try a carpet.

 

[McReef]

Hard surface? bipod hop?
Try a carpet.

It is a hard surface (pavement), ill pick up a piece of carpet to see if this helps.

 

[McReef]

How much muscle are you putting into the rear bag to get your elevation set? You might be releasing the tension you have in the bag during/after the shot and that will drop the stock or you could be pushing down harder on the cheek piece during/after the shot.

Good point there. It does seem like I need to really work at that rear bag sometimes to get the elevation where I need it. It has been an annoyance, but it never really registered in my head that it might be a “problem”. After reading that though, I want to smack myself. Of course it’s a problem you dummy!

Between you and @Rocketvapor I think you guys have it. The PITA rear bag situation (guessing improperly sized for application), as well as the fact that the rifle does tend to hop a little probably account for most of my issues.

Thanks guys, I’ll see what playing with these variables does for me and report back.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Weight also helps.
That's why the F-Class guys have an upper weight LIMIT, but not a lower.

 

[McReef]

Weight also helps.
That's why the F-Class guys have an upper weight LIMIT, but not a lower.

I could see how that would help a lot. I will see what I can do to correct this without adding weight first though. I don’t want to artificially cover for my own deficiencies.

 

[Precision Underground]

A correctly sized rear bag is very important. When you buy a rear bag from us you are buying a correctly sized bag because if it doesn’t fit we will work with you to make it fit.
PrecisionUndergroundRifleGear.com

You should not need to put carpet under your bipod. You need to relax your shoulder and allow the recoil to go through it rather than bouncing off of it.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Agreed. Carpet is a solution to a problem where fundamentals are the answer.

Rifles don’t “hop,” they recoil straight back. Any other movement is influenced by us.

 

[McReef]

Hopefully I’ll see some decent weather in the next day or two and get out to test myself some more.

I appreciate all the input.

 

[McReef]

I got out today for a couple boxes of fun. Hop is much reduced, though still present.

I dropped my bipod a couple notches to bring it more in line with the rear bag height, and this definitely reduced the effort required to get and hold proper elevation. Thanks @_Raining and @Precision Underground

I feel more comfortable/natural behind the gun when it is a bit higher, but clearly I was paying a penalty by f’ing around with a too short rear bag for where I had it. I have another one on the way to play with.

@Precision Underground , I think you hit something else with your comment about the shoulder. I think I have kind been taking “loading the bipod” a bit too far.

I think I caught myself actually pushing with my shoulder, and sort of leaning into the gun a bit. When the gun recoils, she must be sort of bouncing off my shoulder and hopping forward a bit, releasing all of the preload I have put on the bipod. This would account for some of the elevation issue as well I think. As she walks away from me the geometry would obviously change and POA would shift upwards. It seems logical in my head anyway.

Anyway, I am down to an inch or two of hop from my previous 6” at 100. A big improvement. I still have work to do, but it feels good to see concrete results as you go.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Bipod load should only be enough to take the slack out if bipod.

Put it on your kitchen table, hold the gun up by the grip without it in your shoulder.

Push it slightly forward until you see the bipod stop. It ain’t much.

That’s all you need to load.

 

[McReef]

Bipod load should only be enough to take the slack out if bipod.

Put it on your kitchen table, hold the gun up by the grip without it in your shoulder.

Push it slightly forward until you see the bipod stop. It ain’t much.

That’s all you need to load.

Thanks. I guess this is where actually taking a class or working with someone knowledgeable rather than reading about it and watching videos could save me making these kinds of mistakes.

Appreciate the feedback.

 

[Precision Underground]

I got out today for a couple boxes of fun. Hop is much reduced, though still present.

I dropped my bipod a couple notches to bring it more in line with the rear bag height, and this definitely reduced the effort required to get and hold proper elevation. Thanks @_Raining and @Precision Underground

I feel more comfortable/natural behind the gun when it is a bit higher, but clearly I was paying a penalty by f’ing around with a too short rear bag for where I had it. I have another one on the way to play with.

@Precision Underground , I think you hit something else with your comment about the shoulder. I think I have kind been taking “loading the bipod” a bit too far.

I think I caught myself actually pushing with my shoulder, and sort of leaning into the gun a bit. When the gun recoils, she must be sort of bouncing off my shoulder and hopping forward a bit, releasing all of the preload I have put on the bipod. This would account for some of the elevation issue as well I think. As she walks away from me the geometry would obviously change and POA would shift upwards. It seems logical in my head anyway.

Anyway, I am down to an inch or two of hop from my previous 6” at 100. A big improvement. I still have work to do, but it feels good to see concrete results as you go.

It’s definitely bouncing off of your shoulder but while it will help, not loading it so hard won’t totally fix it. Your shoulder, your whole body, needs to be relaxed so the recoil goes through you rather than rebounding off of you. So you are part of the way there.

Let the gun release all of its energy into you. The way you do that is by remaining supple enough so the gun can MOVE YOU. Watch a good shooter, especially one shooting something with decent recoil, and their whole body moves in a wave as the recoil goes through them. All of that energy has to go somewhere. It can be used to move your whole body or it can bounce off of a rigid body and then move the gun.

 

[Back Spin]

Here’s an example of what Precision Underground is talking about recoil management/absorption:


Phil Velayo shooting a big caliber rifle. He says each shot knocked the wind out of him, but the rifle still moves straight back. You can see the energy wave move down his body.

 

[McReef]

Spent another box of 147 ELDM’s today, she is a hungry lady.

Anyway, seems like there was a little improvement. It is tough getting myself to a place where everything is lined up just right, and I a completely relaxed. I sometimes have a hard time picking up that center dot too. It is not consistent. My eyes aren’t exactly eagle caliber, but sometimes it is in sharp focus, sometimes I can’t see to see it for shit. The illumination would probably help there a lot on these gloomy days, but it seems to be unreliable on this Trijicon glass. I will need to look into that and see what’s up there.

Anyway, proof is in the pudding. I know it’s probably nothing special to you folks, but it is better than where I started...

And just for the heck of it, here is my girl. Modest compared to some of the rigs I see on here, but she is good to me...

 

[Back Spin]

@McReef Did you adjust your diopter on your scope to properly focus the reticle? I think you should be able to see the center dot clearly if the diopter is set. It’ll be a huge thing to not have to struggle with.

That’s a good looking gun. You should see my ghetto rigged AR15.

 

[McReef]

@McReef Did you adjust your diopter on your scope to properly focus the reticle? I think you should be able to see the center dot clearly if the diopter is set. It’ll be a huge thing to not have to struggle with.

That’s a good looking gun. You should see my ghetto rigged AR15.

Yeah, I think I have everything where it needs to be, it just gets tough to pick out that dot once there is a hole or two near the point of aim.

 

[Precision Underground]

Yeah, I think I have everything where it needs to be, it just gets tough to pick out that dot once there is a hole or two near the point of aim.

Try using a square or diamond target so the lines on the reticle can serve as a guide to quarter the bigger part of the target. If you get too hyper focused on the center of the reticle on the center of the target your eyes will start to play tricks on you.

 

[Back Spin]

Yeah, I think I have everything where it needs to be, it just gets tough to pick out that dot once there is a hole or two near the point of aim.

Ah I see. Like Precision Underground suggested, I find I’m more consistent on a 1” square target than small dot (I personally like the free Larue target with four 2”/1” squares). I find I’m able to quarter it more consistently.

A buddy of mine also suggested dialing elevation a little up or down so that the group doesn’t obscure the POA. Another suggestion would be a single shot per dot.

I wonder if a larger rear bag, plus having your bipod at your preferred height would help even more. It doesn’t take much to have your gun recoil a bit high. My braked .224V recoils hardly at all, but my reticle can be up to 2 mils high after the shot if my positioning is off. A lot of it was due to me working around a less than ideal stock and not consistently setting the gun into my shoulder with my support hand and rear bag.

 

[McReef]

@Back Spin I do have some of the shoot-n-see sight in targets with 5 squares, I switch back and forth.

I hadn’t thought to adjust elevation, what a dope. I suppose that also allows me to actually use all those fancy knobs and doohickeys on that stack of money I have mounted atop my rifle. At my home range I never have cause to dial off zero.

I think @Precision Underground might be onto something with the “hyper focus” as well. It is frustrating that sometimes all is as clear as can be, then I just can’t seem to get a clear picture of the reticle. It isn’t consistent. Maybe I dealing with a bit of eye strain or something. I can see how this would only get worse when the target picture gets more cluttered. Maybe I need to step away for a minute and let the peepers relax.

I did figure out the illumination issue was a faulty battery. Big sigh of relief there, I really didn’t want to have to send this thing back for repair. Mostly because that would mean a whole week or two without shooting her.