Night Vision NV for Newbie, Gen 1, or used gen 2 Advice needed

[BNC]

Hey, I have quietly been reading and watching so many posts on here, as well as other sniper forums.

I live in deep dark southern oregon, on a beautiful property with very tall trees, laurals and scrub oaks.. the longest distance i have on the prop is only 120 yards, most less then 50 yards between trees and outbuildings.

I currently have a gen 1 monocular that works decent, if fun to watch the deer come in or see coons eyes, and works decent... but i have no way to mount to a weapon and is hard for general observation.

we have started a small hobby farm here and I want to be able to better keep watch on the place...

i wish i had the cash to throw down on some gen 2, and dream happy dreams of someday a gen 3... ill keep playing the lottery at a dollar a week and hope... but till then...

I have seen some scopes on different sites from midway, cheaper then dirt, cabelas, even some of the sites listed here on this forum and others....

I am looking for options or any feed back that may help me select an option for the need.

I have a few ar15s and a bushy ar10, and then old fav 10/22 w pic rail on top.. so being able to change the scope from rifle to rifle would be great... or the use of a helmet mounted NV system...

No one i know has NV, and with my work set up- self employed, I am constantly slammed so networking and finding who has what is hard..


I wonder how the use of a helmet mounted system works thru a scope?? In my mind it would lose light from IR since it is going thru the scope... with out the use of separate IR source... am I wrong on that??

any leads on good source for used or discounted NV?? I wish I had 3-5 k to throw at it... but life does not permit it currently... But if feel strongly that i need to get into it... I am working on outfitting the ars with votex pst 1-4x24: TMCQ MRAD Reticle

the 308 will get the new FFP votex also.....

other then that I just have leupold glass on the 10/22 3x9....


So to better define what I am asking.....

Am I correct that a helmet mount or even mono tube will not work thru a scope??

any options or suggestions for set up?? I really cant throw much more then 400-800 out there right now... tops!
wife support my gun habit... but even that has limits! with a few projects being built it goes fast

for the short distances that i need... is there much of a need from gen 1 to gen 2? never looked thru a gen 2... so i dont really know... I dont need to count how many whiskers on the cats face.. just be able to see it is a mt lion, coon, skunk or my wifes cat by the chicken coop!

I would like to say that in the distances i am dealing with.. that hooked up with a scope, zero at 100 yrds i would need to shoot beyond that... next to NEVER on my place..

I would like it to be covert as much as possible.. so when the zombies come i can hide in the grape arbor and they will never know i am there....

I am sure that i need something more then i can get at big 5 sporting goods... and cheap nc star flea market gun show deal of the week is.... but dont know enough about it... thank you

anyways.. I hope this clears up what I and so many budget builders, cheap scakets and poor folk are asking for, and that you with experience can help steer our hard earn few dollars
thank you in advance and have a great day!

 

[cj7hawk]

Re: NV for Newbie, Gen 1, or used gen 2 Advice needed


So in summation, you want to shoot 0-120m in a fairly close area, with other farms around and with an average shot distance probably of around 50m.

Normally I'd say Gen1 was OK at those kind of distances, but in this case, you have two factors to consider.

1. Overshoot area. In a hobby farm environment, you really need to see what's beyond what you're shooting at.

2. Identification range. Unless you go active all the time( a must for Gen1 shooting of any kind ) you will need as much detail on the target as you can get. That means resolution and quality.

Also, covert means passive. Something to think about for other purposes.

Anyway, back to your problem. I'd recommend mid to high end Gen3. Recognition needs resolution and you get than from Gen3. It also has the gain you need for MTF which is another factor. Put a Gen3 into a high zoom scope and you'll avoid harming the wife's moggies. The problem you have is detail of small objects at range. Telling a rabbit from a cat at 100m is going to be a little challenging.

Now, you've said budget is tight. Always an issue. In the area of compromise, you can consider a few things, but probably losing covertness is the best one.

You could actually go active and consider Digital. A good digital will give you most of the ranges and a good recognition range. Not as good as Gen2 and barely better than Gen1 ( sometimes ) but up close, they do work rather well. A combination of excellent MTF with high zoom and lots of active IR actually works fairly well under situations such as yours. Downside is complete loss of covertness and major loss of scanning capability and zero identification of overshoot. But on a smaller caliber rifle it's fine.

But that's only a poor reflection of something with about 6x zoom that you really want with a spot of IR to be used as required with a Gen3 tube, because I think your starting point should be a D760 or so.

But you also mentioned head mounted so I'll feed that into the consideration.

There are compromise positions that give the best of all worlds. If you go for a head-mount scope that you can attach on the rifle, then you can fit it in behind the riflescope and "shoot through". With some good optics. This fits the headmount behind the dayscope and you look through it ( it's not attached to your head at the time )

This works VERY well for your kind of application but does have a significant drawback - you will have to adjust your shooting position as though to allow for an extra 4 inches of eye relief, meaning your head will be in an unnatural position. But a little almost-covert IR will turn this into an effective tool at range.

Also avoid looking at front-mount clip-on. They are probably going to be more expensive and you will lose detail for recognition of small targets at range.

Perhaps the one piece of advice that I can give that will be useful? Try to save a little more and don't buy Gen1. I think Gen1 will disappoint. If you must, get a cheap Gen1 off Ebay and try that. If it costs more than $300, it's too much.

Hope this helps -

David

 

[Clicks]

Re: NV for Newbie, Gen 1, or used gen 2 Advice needed

I would recommend the ATN MK390 night scope with an IR spot light. The MK390 alone works pretty well out to 100 meters, but with the IR spot light you should be able to see pretty far. The clarity and quality of the image is pretty good. And it's damn cheap. I should warn you though. In most states hunting at night is illegal. And in some(like Kalifornia) just owning a night scope(night vision with a reticle) is illegal. Check you local laws. Although there is a loop hole. If the night scope does not emit IR illumination then it isn't considered a night scope. I have to say I own the MK390 as well as some Gen IV NV goggles, and the MK390 gets more use. I don't have to worry about it and can just mess around with it. It is well worth the price. Hope this helps.

 

[BNC]

Re: NV for Newbie, Gen 1, or used gen 2 Advice needed

thank you for the input... overshooting is not an issue, we are a good distance from other home, 100-400 yards, through heavy trees... and in a slight gully... we have a shooting range out back that gives me a distance of 120 yards tops... and that's from pasture to a slight ridge, then a 50 ft hill that is the back of the property to BLM...

I will look up the suggested options and go from there.. thank you for your detailed information

 

[BNC]

Re: NV for Newbie, Gen 1, or used gen 2 Advice needed

thank you, that suggested scope is in the price range....

my dog got skunked again last night... so it is defiantly time to get out there and see what and when they are coming in. but i will have to look into the laws more I know there is some grey area about home owners shooting predatory animals with night vision.. I will take this into account before spending the money on it..

thank you for your input

 

[j-huskey]

Re: NV for Newbie, Gen 1, or used gen 2 Advice needed

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thank you, that suggested scope is in the price range....

my dog got skunked again last night... so it is defiantly time to get out there and see what and when they are coming in. but i will have to look into the laws more I know there is some grey area about home owners shooting predatory animals with night vision.. I will take this into account before spending the money on it..

thank you for your input </div></div>

I shot the predator off my porch when the motion light came on............ NV eq, we use that to animal watch, like we use binoculars to bird watch. Install a motion light............

 

[IR-V]

Re: NV for Newbie, Gen 1, or used gen 2 Advice needed

A night vision monocular can be put behind the ocular of day scope. There will be a modest attenuation of the incoming light through the day scope, and so it is common practice to turn up the gain on the night vision and limit the magnification on the day scope to around 6x (to maximize the 'exit pupil diameter' of the light / image being transmitted out of the ocular end). IR illumination on the target will most certainly improve its visibility through a NV monocular + dayscope combo. Of course, overall performance will vary by the resolution and sensitivity of the light intensifier technology, which progressively diminishes as you move toward older generations of the technology.

The Universal Monoloc adapter is a somewhat popular means for affixing and aligning a PVS-14 to the ocular of a day scope. TNVC has a similar adapter. Also, there are other types of adapters available that have a more generic (but usually larger and more clumsy) interface for connecting together a broader variety of night and day scopes.

While the idea of using head mounted night vision to view through a rifle mounted day scope may sound feasible in theory -- in practice it does not work well. It'll work okay if the day scope is at low magnification or no magnification (e.g. Aimpoint, Eotech, etc.) and if the rifle is being aimed in the standing, offhand position. If you try to go prone with the NV on your head, and a rifle-mounted day scope with higher magnification, you'll give yourself neck strain trying to hold your head straight up to align NV scope with day scope and to hold optimum relief (between NV scope and day scope). You'll last 5 minutes at best before your neck fatigues from the awkward position.

When using head-mounted NV optics, it is best to use an IR laser aiming device mounted on your rifle for aiming and target acquisition.

IR-V

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder how the use of a helmet mounted system works thru a scope?? In my mind it would lose light from IR since it is going thru the scope... with out the use of separate IR source... am I wrong on that??

So to better define what I am asking.....

Am I correct that a helmet mount or even mono tube will not work thru a scope??

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