Night Vision NV + Thermal - Help me decide the roles they suit.

[Just Macca]

Let me start by saying that I'm an Australian shooter. This means everything to do with night hunting is more expensive. Gen 3 NV is $5k-$7k AUD, 640x480 range Thermal is $8k-$10k++ AUD. Thats a lot of biscuits. My question is more unilateral though.

Option 1: Am I best to run a lower end NV monocular with IR as my spotting/navigation aid, and a Thermal sight for shooting?

**or**

Option 2: A higher end NV sight/clip on with a lower end thermal monocular for detection spotting?

In essence, where would you allocate the bulk of your funds? The Pro's in regards to Opt. 1 seem to be it will be cheaper and more mobile/versatile. Opt 2. is probably better from a static position where I can observe with thermal and then swap to the NV scope for superior definition/recognition/shot placement. How do you hunt at night? And what would you do?

Thanks for your time.

 

[wigwamitus]

Either will work, as you say depends on how you hunt .. static on moving. I'm usually moving. On my land (familiar ground) I skip the NV Monocular and just go with the thermal scope on the rifle and hold it up a lot. On unfamiliar ground I wear the NV monocular on head and thermal spotter on head also to see the critters while moving. Of course also depends on how much light is out there. On many nights, there is enough moon, don't need any NV.

I would skip the "lower end NV monocular" in all cases ... lower end NV monoculars are not useful for navigating unless you leave the IR light on and I wouldn't do that, so I wouldn't waste any pennies on that. Either pinnacle (gen 3p) or better ... or skip it.

 

[Conrad]

Unless you have to be absolutely covert I think for general hunting a guy can navigate pretty stealthily with a red lens on a head lamp. This is how I move when heading up the mountain for elk before daylight. Conversely if money was no object, I think a PVS-14 for nav, a thermal spotter around the neck and a NV clip on or dedicated thermal scope would be optimal. I'm a newb at NV and haven't purchased yet, but have been doing some research. From what I've gathered, for hunting, I would probably purchase a dedicated thermal scope first. Dedicated vs clip-on because you will get better optical resolution. Thermal over NV because detection is superior and won't get clouded out by muzzle smoke on follow up shots. Most night shots are closer range so identification is easier, but if you don't know what it is, don't shoot, not worth it. The REAP-IR is what I have my eye on, and I think it might even be possible to use it as an off rifle monocular for detection, and then clip it on for shooting if a guy wanted to. Ultimately I could foresee having a REAP-IR, CNVD-LR, and maybe a PVS14. I look forward to Fusion vision, but it's not worth waiting for if it means sitting out of the game for too long. Can always sell, save, and upgrade later.

 

[Hogrider2000]

here is a great set up that I use for pigs inTexas. I have an L3x320 thermal for scanning. A helmet mounted PVS-14RC for driving. A weapons mounted CNVD for NV shooting in front of a Leupold 1x8. And a IR defense Reaper IR on a dedicated weapon. None of this is cheap and it took a lot of mistakes to get there but it is a perfect combination for my hunting from most of my shots being in the 80/120 yard range. I have surefire IR/white lights on all my weapons for nights when there is not enough ambient lighting.

 

[Just Macca]

Thanks for the replies fellahs. I'm leaning towards NV monocular with Thermal sight to start, who knows where I'll finish.
Would you choose objective size over resolution?

 

[ggmanning]

I use a PVS 14, thermal handheld and we run a thermal sight and a clip on nv. If I had one piece of gear it would be a good handheld thermal. Detection is the key and nothing beats a thermal. Then you can shoot with whatever you have from the best clip on to a spotlight.....but you got to see them first.

 

[wigwamitus]

I've had several 320s and several 640s (and on both front end bolometer and back end display) as well as lens sizes from 10mm up to 100mm. I'd say the best "balance" works better than over balancing one over the other. Like 50mm 640 seems to be a good balance for the pulsars, for instance. But not all lens or bolometers are created equal either. If going pulsar the 50mm 384 seems like a sweet spot, but the 38mm 384 is fine and you might not be able to tell the difference. I had a 19mm 640 and it looked rather grainy sometimes, thoug nuc-ing the hecque out of it helped a lot. The dollars balance also matters for many of us. But in general I would go for resolution over lens size. Like the IRD 35mm are very fine in 640 so are the IRD 19mm.

 

[Just Macca]

I've had several 320s and several 640s (and on both front end bolometer and back end display) as well as lens sizes from 10mm up to 100mm. I'd say the best "balance" works better than over balancing one over the other. Like 50mm 640 seems to be a good balance for the pulsars, for instance. But not all lens or bolometers are created equal either. If going pulsar the 50mm 384 seems like a sweet spot, but the 38mm 384 is fine and you might not be able to tell the difference. I had a 19mm 640 and it looked rather grainy sometimes, thoug nuc-ing the hecque out of it helped a lot. The dollars balance also matters for many of us. But in general I would go for resolution over lens size. Like the IRD 35mm are very fine in 640 so are the IRD 19mm.

The Pulsar Apex XD50 is around $5.4k in Aus, I'm leaning towards it I think. Good to hear its a decent piece.

 

[TheGerman]

Thermal is for observation and finding things. Nightvision/ IR is for fighting them.

The only time this can change a bit is when totally static and you are using something like a thermal optic as you will be able to engage through the optic normally. But as soon as you start to move, or you have to move things go south really fast with thermal due to what I can only describe as its lack of real depth perception (or at least our eye/brain don't like it) and a lot of 'grey' area due to the heat signature of things being relatively the same and just looking like a red/yellow/blue/etc blob.

Nightvision doesn't make things 'glow' like thermal does so the possibility of you looking right at something and not noticing it are much higher (i.e. a coyote in a bush). But paired with IR lasers/lights it's basically your vision during the day with depth perception at night.

Ideally, you'd get both. NV for your helmet and either a second monocle to flip down for thermal when your static to scan, or at least a hand held unit for when you're stopped.

 

[mikeinfwa]

I've had several 320s and several 640s (and on both front end bolometer and back end display) as well as lens sizes from 10mm up to 100mm. I'd say the best "balance" works better than over balancing one over the other. Like 50mm 640 seems to be a good balance for the pulsars, for instance. But not all lens or bolometers are created equal either. If going pulsar the 50mm 384 seems like a sweet spot, but the 38mm 384 is fine and you might not be able to tell the difference. I had a 19mm 640 and it looked rather grainy sometimes, thoug nuc-ing the hecque out of it helped a lot. The dollars balance also matters for many of us. But in general I would go for resolution over lens size. Like the IRD 35mm are very fine in 640 so are the IRD 19mm.

Any information on this item.... [h=2]Pulsar 2.2-8.8x32mm Thermal Imaging Sight Apex XQ38[/h] [h=3]Specifications for Pulsar Thermal Imaging Sight Apex XQ38:[/h]

Magnification:	2.1-8.4x (smooth zoom)
Sensor:	384x288 @17um
Range Of Detection:	1350m
Wi-Fi Module:	Intergrated

 

[wigwamitus]

I just came back from rolling around on my land on my 4-wheeler lights out ... coon, steers, yotes, rabbits all visible while rolling on the 4-wheeler ... ATN ODIN on right eye pvs-14 on left eye ... ird mk3 35mm on carbine ... apparently not for everyone ... but having thermal spotter up and usable hands free while moving either on vehicle with no glass or on foot is a great thing for me.

Here is slightly more kit than I was out with tonight (no radio or pack tonight) but without the 4-wheeler in view ...

Here is link to the pulsar site, data on all their products here ... this is link to the thermal rifle scope section ... the new stuff is coming some time this year ...

http://www.pulsar-nv.com/products/thermal-imaging-sights/

 

[fr3db3ar]

For hunting, what has worked best for my hunting is thermal to scan and dnv to identify and shoot. Your situation is different in that I don't think you have to worry so much about shooting an out of season animal. You may want to consider a repeatable qd mount and just get a scope to scan and then put on the rifle to shoot. OR, Pulsar is coming out with a clip on thermal that would accomplish this very thing if your not concerned about recording.

 

[McCrazy]

A couple things to bear in mind although they may not apply to your particular hunting situation:

Thermals are great for spotting things as they make things stand out. Be it an animal hiding in brush/forest or a guy in a ghillie suit. NVGs make it really hard to detect camouflaged targets, especially if they are stationary. Thermals can also see through fog, haze, smoke, dust, etc. whereas NVGs can not. Thermals do burn through batteries very quickly compared to NVGs however.

Thermals can't see through glass or any form of window. If you are wanting to drive your car or a side-by-side with a windscreen you can't do it with thermals but you can with NVGs.

Another advantage of NVGs is you can mount a visible or IR laser to your weapon and very quickly engage targets accurately while not having to glue your face to the weapon and look through a scope with a even narrower field of view or have to waste time trying to re-acquire the target through the scope that you already saw with your head-mounted NVGs.

 

[Just Macca]

I agree about the ability to utilise NV for quick engagement with a laser. Issue is, because I'm Aussie it's bolt action only.

As for a clipon. I'll be using a DT Covert, so probably won't have room on the rail. Unless I finally get my SnB 5-20 Ultra Short organised, then it's doable. But by that stage we're talking a $11K+ Optics package on a $7K+ rifle. Thats a house deposit in these parts.

I'm still leaning towards NV monocular for Nav and dedicated Thermal for scanning and shooting.

 

[wigwamitus]

You can make a clip on work on anything ... would you like me to elaborate?

Not sure bolt gun means quick engagement not possible. The bolt gun ROF isn't so different from the SLR ROF. It is the magazine capacity that drives me to use SLR versus bolt gun against a field of multiple sounders.

 

[FF05]

Another Aussie here.
I use both gen3 night vision with IR lighting and a Flir thermal monocular. They complement each other well, where one lags, the other picks up the slack.
Thermal is great for quick target identification.

 

[MilDot1960]

I have the little Leupold Thermal which is great for scanning around But for Critters I would go with a NV fitted with a powerful IR because the IR really makes their eyes stand out, My Leupold has very little Lag if Any,

I'm an Aussie too and back when I was Roo Shooting I think most were shot between 70 to about 200 yards +/- Max, So I am not sure you need to go OTT with NV gear,, You can still see a long way even with middle of the range gear, But if you add a long range IR Torch/Flashlight for a couple of hundred bucks I think that will get you where you want to be,

Hope this helps.

John.

 

[FF05]

With NFE (night fighting equipment) It comes down to what you can afford... You get what you pay for.
It depends on how much use you think you'll get out of it and if it justifies the price tag.
Keep in mind, you'll very rarely take a shot over 200m, 90% of mine are within 100m so the firearm platform isn't a big issue.
Also steer clear of cheap high power IR illumination, animals have night vision and if you can see the red glow so can they.
If possible, find someone with similar equipment you want and try before you buy.

 

[wigwamitus]

With a 50/200 yd double zero, as is possible with some calibers, critters within those distances can be taken without knowing the distance other than within that range. As the elevation variance is 2 inches or less. But agree that 90% are under 100yds for me as well.

 

[FF05]

With a 50/200 yd double zero, as is possible with some calibers, critters within those distances can be taken without knowing the distance other than within that range. As the elevation variance is 2 inches or less. But agree that 90% are under 100yds for me as well.

Exactly...
It is very hard to judge distance with any NFE, unless your in a stationary hide with a range card of known distances.

 

[Just Macca]

Another Aussie here.
I use both gen3 night vision with IR lighting and a Flir thermal monocular. They complement each other well, where one lags, the other picks up the slack.
Thermal is great for quick target identification.

What kind of NV scope are you running? Its hard to distinguish amongst all the Gen 2 stuff for sale in Aus what's worth having and whats not.

 

[FF05]

Pm on the way...

 

[N2thermals]

If I could only have one. It would definitely be a thermal. Eotech pas13g. Or a nice IR reapir.

 

[Benjamin Farr]

A couple things to bear in mind although they may not apply to your particular hunting situation:

Thermals are great for spotting things as they make things stand out. Be it an animal hiding in brush/forest or a guy in a ghillie suit. NVGs make it really hard to detect camouflaged targets, especially if they are stationary. Thermals can also see through fog, haze, smoke, dust, etc. whereas NVGs can not. Thermals do burn through batteries very quickly compared to NVGs however.

Thermals can't see through glass or any form of window. If you are wanting to drive your car or a side-by-side with a windscreen you can't do it with thermals but you can with NVGs.

Another advantage of NVGs is you can mount a visible or IR laser to your weapon and very quickly engage targets accurately while not having to glue your face to the weapon and look through a scope with a even narrower field of view or have to waste time trying to re-acquire the target through the scope that you already saw with your head-mounted NVGs.

What he said!

Having bought most everything mentioned here, thermal for detection is king! Period. You will see 10 times the critters with thermal compared to NV. Get a 12 micron 640 core thermal if you can afford it. Your ability to ID targets with thermal very much depends on the quality of thermal you purchase. Also, do not buy cheap NV as you will end up getting rid of it for much less than you paid for it.

Best set-up IMHO: IR Defense REAP thermal, helmet mounted PSV-14 NV (OR goggles), IR illuminator (and laser if you can mount it on a gun)... Roughly 12,000 US$ so yes it is ridiculously expensive.
If you're on the move a lot you will end up wanting a thermal scanner too so you don't have to hold your gun up all the time. Did that for a couple years before I got my monocular, but you can remove the REAP from your gun as it will hold zero when attached in the same slot on a rail and can use it as a monocular without spending the extra money. This works but takes a few seconds to attach it back to the gun if you need to shoot quick.
I would say to start with the best thermal you can afford and add the other items as you can. I never use my dedicated NV scope anymore as I can ID critters very well with the high end thermal.

 

[sawhornsoff]

I like using thermal (IRD m300w) for detection detection and a zero shift NV clip on (PVS 30 or UNS A3) to shoot.

 

[Rogerthatout]

Im with sergeant. Thermal TRIjion reaperir (previously IRdegense) or mkiii 35mm will find animals faster than a zookeeer on the clock. I mean, mice jump off the screen at 150 yards. Its unfair, but really awesome (for you, not the animals)
i have the pvs30 in front of a 3-12 Schmidt with a SPIR By Steiner. Its first class for taking the shot. You can go as low as 3X on the pvs30 and dont be tempted to do a 5X on your scope. You really need the FOV on the NV. I didnt find it easy acquring the target on 5x. Than again, i get opportunity at the short game and you need that FOV. One day, i will get the 3.5 -27 by SB to finish my system.

 

[Benjamin Farr]

Im with sergeant. Thermal TRIjion reaperir (previously IRdegense) or mkiii 35mm will find animals faster than a zookeeer on the clock. I mean, mice jump off the screen at 150 yards. Its unfair, but really awesome (for you, not the animals)

These 2 thermals are the best I have seen/owned. I have only owned 5 but have looked through several others. I have been able to see and ID animals with these scopes that other hunters could not see on a FLIR, Zeus, Pulsar, Armasight, etc. If they could see them, they had no idea what they were. Do you have a picatinny rail on your bolt gun or have the means to mount one? REAP would be the best for you to use as a monocular and then mount as a scope and shoot.

 

[Rogerthatout]

These 2 thermals are the best I have seen/owned. I have only owned 5 but have looked through several others. I have been able to see and ID animals with these scopes that other hunters could not see on a FLIR, Zeus, Pulsar, Armasight, etc. If they could see them, they had no idea what they were. Do you have a picatinny rail on your bolt gun or have the means to mount one? REAP would be the best for you to use as a monocular and then mount as a scope and shoot.

I agree 100%