Off Topic Stock Question

[benwitt11]

First, thank you for all the advice and knowledge here. I usually just enjoy reading and try to learn something. It’s a pleasure to hang out and simply be around.

I have acquired a beauty of an old German shotgun by Emil Kerner and Sohn. It’s a 12 bore, and quite well made from what I can tell. The engraving is lovely, and it locks up quite solid. The trouble is that the stock is broken terribly, after at least one previous repair. It’s a shame, as the slender form is just gorgeous.

It doesn’t appear that the gun is of great value, but it mounts so well, and is so pretty it seems a shame to just leave it in it’s current condition.

Any suggestions as to where to look for a next step? Thank you in advance.

 

[Quarter Horse]

I've been away from SXSs for ten or eleven years. For about 30yrs. they were my principal interest in firearms. The news is not great for your Kerner. The market for SXSs has been in the doldrums for a number of years. There are a lot of the continental guns on the market.

Kerner apparently existed until 1940 which would mean that most of the guns would be short chambered. This presents it's own problems in terms of ammo availability. Kerner was a Suhl maker so it most certainly has Krupp barrels which even in lower grades would be of good quality. It may be possible to lengthen the chambers to 2 3/4". Before making any decisions you need to check the guns mechanics and overall condition. Is the gun on face? Are the ribs still firmly soldered? Have the barrels been shortened? How is it choked? If it's an ejector gun, do the ejectors work properly? Obviously there are further questions.

The stock is pretty much an unmitigated disaster. It is evident that the metal is well proud of the wood. That means that the head of the stock has minimal thickness where it contacts the back of the action. It's got a scalloped back action which is a nice visual feature and adds time to the original stocking. In this case the the scallops are not rounded and you can see several failures at the corners.

Before I go any further there is a caveat. If this was a bring-back from one of the wars and is a family heirloom than all bets are off. I would fully understand paying the tariff to restock this gun and put it back in service. If the mechanics are sound it could give another hundred years of service. That call would be yours and the economics are not necessarily relevant.

OK, back to the stock. The gun can be restocked. Done properly with decent wood it would be expensive. Done with highly figured wood it would be commensurately more expensive. Probably the least expensive method would be to graft a new piece of wood for the stockhead at the hand of the stock. The graft can often be matched by literally painting in color and grain. The hand is then recheckered and the graft can be hard to discern. This still requires significant skills and a full restock could be less.

@benwitt11 If you want more info. PM me and I will provide links and references.

1937 L.C. Smith Feathweight 16ga. The gun that started it all.

The second and third pics. are of a Sauer hammer cape gun circa 1913. The reason the dog shot is first is that his retrieve was the reason either pic. was taken. It was a brilliant piece of work.

The second shot shows the gun and it's condition. The right barrel is 9.3X72R rifle barrel with a single set trigger and the left is 16ga. There is lots of case coloring on the sides of the receiver and the locks. The barrel bluing is maybe eigthy percent or less. The wood is very good with normal dings and dents. It's what I call an "honest gun". It has all original finishes but the gun has been in the field aplenty. All previous owners cared for it as I hope I have.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

+1 on what Quarter horse said and much more to follow when I am on a keyboard not this infernal phone!

Ok... I'm back with a keyboard. A couple of things... first, is the crack 'loose' and active? If not, shooting the gun with light loads (esp if it's a short chamber) will not hurt it or you at all. It can soldier on for a long time.

To Quarter Horse's point about economics... the gun is most definitely worth re-stocking. Superb engraving, fences, amazing action work, etc. It will be expensive. But that gun is worth putting back to original. Unfortunately, the economics will be such that the new stock will cost a good fraction what the gun is worth, so recovering that would be challenging. That said, once re-stocked it will be good for a lifetime and buying a gun of that quality 'new' would be well into 5 figures. Like with a 2 in front of the line of numbers. So even if its retail prices are not sounding great, you would have an amazing firearm.

As he also mentioned, if there is family value to this piece, for example it was something a relative brought back from WW2.... then it's a no-brainer. These guns have to be kept in families!

Last, no reason to stock that gun in 'exhibition' grade wood. A nice piece of French Walnut would be perfect for that and the wood would not be super expensive. It will all be in gunsmith services/Labor. I would talk to Doug Turnbull, NECG in New Hampshire or Kirk Merrington in Texas... assuming he is still active. I think he is.

Last, if I owned that gun... I'd re-stock it in a heartbeat. Damn the cost. Guns like that are not made any more for less than the price of a nice new car. And you can get the stock fitted to you. And be the envy of any bird hunt or sporting clays field.

PM me with any questions and if you do want to let it go... let me know! I'd add that to my projects list any time!

Cheers and thanks for posting!

Sirhr

PS. Not off topic at all. Vintage is a big tent area. And we may be here for the long range/precision/target vintage stuff. But as you can tell, there are folks here with great knowledge in other vintage areas.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I've been away from SXSs for ten or eleven years. For about 30yrs. they were my principal interest in firearms. The news is not great for your Kerner. The market for SXSs has been in the doldrums for a number of years. There are a lot of the continental guns on the market.

Kerner apparently existed until 1940 which would mean that most of the guns would be short chambered. This presents it's own problems in terms of ammo availability. Kerner was a Suhl maker so it most certainly has Krupp barrels which even in lower grades would be of good quality. It may be possible to lengthen the chambers to 2 3/4". Before making any decisions you need to check the guns mechanics and overall condition. Is the gun on face? Are the ribs still firmly soldered? Have the barrels been shortened? How is it choked? If it's an ejector gun, do the ejectors work properly? Obviously there are further questions.

The stock is pretty much an unmitigated disaster. It is evident that the metal is well proud of the wood. That means that the head of the stock has minimal thickness where it contacts the back of the action. It's got a scalloped back action which is a nice visual feature and adds time to the original stocking. In this case the the scallops are not rounded and you can see several failures at the corners.

Before I go any further there is a caveat. If this was a bring-back from one of the wars and is a family heirloom than all bets are off. I would fully understand paying the tariff to restock this gun and put it back in service. If the mechanics are sound it could give another hundred years of service. That call would be yours and the economics are not necessarily relevant.

OK, back to the stock. The gun can be restocked. Done properly with decent wood it would be expensive. Done with highly figured wood it would be commensurately more expensive. Probably the least expensive method would be to graft a new piece of wood for the stockhead at the hand of the stock. The graft can often be matched by literally painting in color and grain. The hand is then recheckered and the graft can be hard to discern. This still requires significant skills and a full restock could be less.

@benwitt11 If you want more info. PM me and I will provide links and references.




View attachment 7651498
1937 L.C. Smith Feathweight 16ga. The gun that started it all.

View attachment 7651594

View attachment 7651595

The second and third pics. are of a Sauer hammer cape gun circa 1913. The reason the dog shot is first is that his retrieve was the reason either pic. was taken. It was a brilliant piece of work.

The second shot shows the gun and it's condition. The right barrel is 9.3X72R rifle barrel with a single set trigger and the left is 16ga. There is lots of case coloring on the sides of the receiver and the locks. The barrel bluing is maybe eigthy percent or less. The wood is very good with normal dings and dents. It's what I call an "honest gun". It has all original finishes but the gun has been in the field aplenty. All previous owners cared for it as I hope I have.

QH:

That 'Elsie' is beautiful! For me, it was a Parker Trojan. Yup... like popcorn!

For the OP.... sidelocks are way more likely to be broken than boxlocks, but are so lovely. The 'scalloped back' on your boxlock, as QH said, added stress points to the stock and propagated cracks. But a new stock with good bedding will not crack again.

Sirhr

 

[benwitt11]

Thank you for the replies!

To clarify, the crack is quite active and extends through the wrist. It’s not useable and I wouldn’t fire it for fear of it coming apart.
It is not a family heirloom, and it was purchased for very little, (think used 870 money.) I’m interested in repairing it to use, resale isn’t on my mind, though $ in is always something to be considered. I would have it stocked for use, not display. Standard wood would be sufficient, and frankly will be at my limit to afford anyway.

The barrels are almost certainly as they were. I believe it to be a 2 1/2” chamber. I’ll have it looked at locally before pursuing a stock to ensure mechanical order. What I can see would lead me to believe it all works as it should.
I’ll get a few pictures of the wrist for clarity, but I’m sure the stock is a loss.

Funny you both mentioned about the scallops on the receiver. I took one look at them and thought they screamed stress riser!

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Thank you for the replies!

To clarify, the crack is quite active and extends through the wrist. It’s not useable and I wouldn’t fire it for fear of it coming apart.
It is not a family heirloom, and it was purchased for very little, (think used 870 money.) I’m interested in repairing it to use, resale isn’t on my mind, though $ in is always something to be considered. I would have it stocked for use, not display. Standard wood would be sufficient, and frankly will be at my limit to afford anyway.

The barrels are almost certainly as they were. I believe it to be a 2 1/2” chamber. I’ll have it looked at locally before pursuing a stock to ensure mechanical order. What I can see would lead me to believe it all works as it should.
I’ll get a few pictures of the wrist for clarity, but I’m sure the stock is a loss.

Funny you both mentioned about the scallops on the receiver. I took one look at them and thought they screamed stress riser!

If you bought that for 870 money I would not hesitate for a second to get it restocked. You will never be underwater and you will have an absolutely gorgeous gun. As I said I would restocked that in a second. Cheers