Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

[JimGnitecki]

I have a great Nightforce 12-40 x 56 scope on my LMT MWSE semiauto 308. That scope allows me to shoot ladder tests and at least some extended range shooting without using a spotting scope. That means I can avoid losing my position and cheek weld when practicing, trying to improve my technique. This is all good.

However, it makes short range snap shooting slow, and I DO want to also practice that kind of short rnage / fast response shooting. So, I am looking for, ratehr than simply backup sights (BUIS), more accurately "alternative, simultaneously usable sights" (ASUS

).

Knight's and Dueck Defense, and probably others, offer backup sights that mount to the Picatinny rail and are OFFSET. The Knight's version even folds (It's their regular Picannty mounted folding BUIS sights but with a Picannty mount that sets them off to the side and at 45 degrees). The advantage over regular BUIS is SPEED. You don't have to dismount your QD-mounted scope, but instead simply tilt the rifle counterclockwise 45 degrees, sight through the offset sights, and fire. This means that whether your scope malfucntions, or you simply have to react quickly, you do so with minimized time. Apparently, 3-gun compeition shooters use these.

But, I have a few questions, directed to anyone who has actually USED them:

- How easy or hard is it to tilt the rifle 45 degrees and still have a sensible position and hold?

- How much does tilting the rifle that far affect your technique, effort, and time? (e.g. the rifle is no longe rupright in your shoulder pocket, you no longer have the rifle "body" guiding you to the sights, etc)

- Do the sights, even the folding Knight's ones, get "snagged", especially in competition, where the focus and stress can get high?

- Will these kinds of sights positively clear a scope with 56mm objective and the usual windage adjusting hardware, or do you need to actually try it on your rifle ebcause soemtimes they DON'T clear?

- How do you properly adjust for elevation and widnage when the sights are tilted 45 degrees?

- Is this a valid, practical solution or a current fad? (I have HEARD that the U.S. Military has requested sights like these, but if so, would like to hear more about how the military views their intended use)

Oh, and by the way, they are VERY costly - like $250 to $280 costly!

Jim G

 

[cox308]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

I remember watch some shooting TV program that showed Jerry Miculek using an offset holographic red dot on the side of his M&P15 during a 3 gun or something. His scope to red dot transitions were unreal. But then again it was Jerry Miculek

Sorry I can't comment on actually using this system. Hopefully someone else can chime in

 

[Laseredge]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

I've played around with an Aimpoint T-1 on a DD 1 o'clock offset mounted forward on right side. Transitions are pretty easy and fast, a 30 degree roll to the left and the red dot is right there. Not cheap, and definitely a little bulky, but way easier than offset irons for me.

http://www.skdtac.com/Daniel-Defense-1-O-Clock-Offset-Rail-p/ddf.125.htm
http://www.skdtac.com/Aimpoint-Micro-T-1-Red-Dot-Sight-p/aim.309.htm

 

[dhawkins]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

Jim,

I have both the KAC and Dueck RTS. I like the Dueck better - just beefier and easier for me to make quick acquisition than the KAC (and cheaper also). They don't fold, but they don't get in the way either. They work on my NF 2.5-10X no problem. Not a problem to tilt for me, but it might be for some.

I actually prefer them to the LT offset Aimpoint T-1 I had been running (worked on the NF 1-4 and 2.5-10, but ddin't clear the F1 knobs). I think the RTS would work on an F1 with larger knobs, etc., but am not 100% sure (they do clear a DBAL A2 no problem). Dueck is pretty good about getting back to you if you have a specific scope question.

I like them...might be a fad, but they are a lot of fun for me. As a matter fact, I just ordered another set from Top Notch Tactical to put some on the REPR with the new IOR Eliminator scope (arriving today - thanks Scott).

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

Great info, guys! Thank-you especially, Danny Hawkins.

Danny, your posting addresses really well one of the questions I was pondering - size of the sights in total. If I understand you correctly, the Knight's sights are that much smaller than the Dueck sights that it actually makes a notable difference in acquisition time? And yet, I do no hear you saying the Duecks snag on anything in typical use. If they don't snag, the rigid design & easier acquisition could be real pluses.

My scope is the Nightforce Benchrest 12-40 x 56. Is that comparable in size to the scopes you have used these sights with?

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

I have thoughht more about sight adjsutment with tilted sights.

Am I correct in thinking that you still adjust sights exactly like you would if they were mounted level, because you HOLD them level when shooting, even though the rifle is tilted?

There should be no difference, provided you retain solid control of the rifle during recoil, despite the tilt, so the sight picture does not chnage before the bulelt leaves the barrel. Right? Or, is that harder to do ebcause of the tilted orientation and different shoulder position of the rifle?

Jim G

 

[DT1]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

How married are you to the 12-40x Nightforce? If not very, a lower power variable with a cat tail to change magnification might be worth considering. Something in the 2-4x on the low end and 10-15x on the high end would allow you to shoot up close as well as engage targets at long range.

If you choose to run dual optics, one of the dots such as JPoint, Doctor etc would be good choices. You can mount them on your tube using one of the many 45 degree offset mounts that are available or use a base (Spuhr) or rings (Badger etc) that allow you to mount a dot sight in conjunction with your scope.

I tried set ups such as these for 3-gun and carbine matches. Never had them "snag" or get hung up on a barricade but found them cumbersome to use. Found a good low to medium power variable scope to be a better option.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DT1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How married are you to the 12-40x Nightforce? If not very, a lower power variable with a cat tail to change magnification might be worth considering. Something in the 2-4x on the low end and 10-15x on the high end would allow you to shoot up close as well as engage targets at long range.

If you choose to run dual optics, one of the dots such as JPoint, Doctor etc would be good choices. You can mount them on your tube using one of the many 45 degree offset mounts that are available or use a base (Spuhr) or rings (Badger etc) that allow you to mount a dot sight in conjunction with your scope.

I tried set ups such as these for 3-gun and carbine matches. Never had them "snag" or get hung up on a barricade but found them cumbersome to use. Found a good low to medium power variable scope to be a better option. </div></div>

I really like the Nightforce, and don't want to change it. Just supplement it with open sights for closer shots.

I do want the backup /altenrate sights to be mechanical open sights, not an optic.

Jim G

 

[Benito]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

I have a similar situation that I am stumped on how to resolve.
I have a 308 AR (not an AR-10, but a Mega Arms MA-Ten), with a Vortex PST 2.5-10x44.

Here`s the thing:
I already have a set of Troy`s folding battle sights, which I love.

I am looking for a way to mount my Troys so that they clear the magnified optic.

The Dueck Defense RTS seem like a good option but, again I prefer to find something that can work with my Troys.
KAC makes their own folding offset BUIS. ($$$$$$$$$!!!!) I guess that`s an option.
However, I believe that these do not lock in the up or down position. That`s something I very much like about the Troy units.

I`ve tried sticking the Troy BUIS onto the Hales Strategic Partners Thorntail Offset Adaptive Light Mount (excellent product, btw), but it will not clear the optic.

Anybody have any other solution alternativesÉ

 

[sr15match]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

Diamondhead is going to have the D-45. A month ago they were taking pre-orders. Might be worth looking into??

$298 though........

 

[tomcat mv]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

Check out Combat Optical. They have a set of 45 degree offset BUIS. They are kind of a Dueck "knock-off". I normally shy away from knock-off stuff but couldn't justify spending the dough so I tried them and they are solid and work fine. I think I paid about $75 for them.

 

[BayouRobert]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

I run T-1's in Burkett Gen-2 offset 45 degree mounts on SBR's with NF 2.5-10's. Always on, always there, and "rolled-over" 45 degrees actually feels comfy and reasonably natural for me...fast too.

 

[Takashi]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

run 2.5-10 nightforce with kac 45 degree offset t1. very fast combo, and the soft shooting of the sr-25 doesnt give me any disadvantage of being tilted.

the 45 degree kacs that came with the gun are nice, but if the name of the game is speed, then the deucks are faster, the t1 is fastest.

if you are shooting 3-gun, you'll want irons, since then you want be open optics (unless thats where you want to be).

no issues with sangging on any setup, and thats even transitioning shoulders

 

[jevan126]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

Check out JP's SRTS. It stands for short range tactical sights. I have it on my LRP-07 and it works beautifully.

 

[pmclaine]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Benito</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> KAC makes their own folding offset BUIS. ($$$$$$$$$!!!!) I guess that`s an option.
However, I believe that these do not lock in the up or down position. That`s something I very much like about the Troy units.</div></div>

The detent that keeps the KAC in the raised position is a blunt knife edge the fits into a female slot on the raised sight. There is close to 100 percent contact across the width of the folding part of the sight. Its not a small spring seated ball bearing that fits into a hole like what I see on most change position objects.

I'm guessing any hit that inadvertently knocks the KAC flat would be the type of hit that could possibly disable a solid or locked sight.

Just throwing that out there if your concern was that the KACS will be falling flat when you expect them to be deployed. I dont know how the system holds up over time but when I saw how the fold feature was built I realized it was one of the reasons they want so much money for them.

 

[redhooker]

Re: Offset back up/alternative sights on scoped AR10?

Jim I am running an MWS with a NF 5.5-22x56 with the Duecks. With my setup the buis is under the power ring not the windage. Transition is a snap, I have shot 4 inch groups standing up at 100 with only a sling. Maybe just ok here but for me and that heavy front end I feel good about that.