"Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

W

Wannashootit

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Sep 3, 2010
    2,255
    565
    FL
    #1
    Confusing thread title, huh?

    Need some input...

    I just purchased a "new" Savage 11 in .308 from a major online retailer. I won't say who they are because it is irrelevant at this point- I want to see if they make it "right" before throwing them under the bus.

    Rifle arrives at my FFL just before Xmas (gift for my son)and I do the cursory check. Correct model, caliber, no damage, looks GTG.

    We take her out shooting for the first time this weekend. So, I'm cleaning the barrel, and my son asks me to see if we can reduce the trigger pull. No problem...grab the manual to see how/what's involved and I need to remove the stock from the action. When I do, I'm shocked...

    This model is supposed to include the Accustock- according to Savage's website.But, what I have is a plain old cheap plastic stock. So I call Savage this morning and ask WTF? I'm told that this rifle was manufactured in <span style="font-weight: bold">2006</span>...
    I was sold an old, buried-in-the-back somewhere out of production model instead of the current one. At the same price, I might add...

    So I call the retailer. I'm told they can't take it back, because I've taken delivery from the FFL. I'm given the email address of the CS guy I need to deal with to try to resolve this. I'm fucking PISSED!

    I emailed CS earlier. I explained that I didn't know then, and still don't know now- whether the "exterior" of an Accustock looks any different that their "regular" stock. Certainly they can't say it's my "fault" for not seeing this before taking delivery of the gun. It was only when I removed the action that I could see the "guts" for Chrissake...

    I'm just trying to get some info so I can figure out what might be an acceptable resolution for me.
    Obviously, I want them to exchange the rifle. I was sold an old model, instead of the current one. Kinda like ordering a 2011 car, and them giving you a "new" 2007 instead....

    As a fallback, I was considering whether or not placing the barreled action in an aftermarket stock- perhaps a B&C Medalist- would give me the end result of an equally accurate, and equal level of quality- rifle as the current production Savages.

    I went with Savage (first Savage, have a couple of 700's)because of their "up and coming" rep for out-of-the-box accuracy.

    To the point:
    Is a 2006 Savage-stock aside- equal in quality and accuracy as a current model? Have there been changes in production (barrel, etc) that would make the current production models superior?
    Will an aftermarket stock "level the field"?

    Thanks in advance for the input. Just want to have some base of knowledge before hearing back from him so I have a clue as to what will be "fair" here...
     
    #4
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    most likely you have a different action screw spacing. the new is 4.40"ish and the old is 4.2xx? but i cant recall the old numbers. now the accustock is what you paid for. in theory you would have to fully bed the action in a new stock to come close to the accustocks performance. so far the people that have bought and shot the accustock have been very pleased.

    i would seek some remedy with the CS but what can they do? thats really gonna be what you have to decide. they cant really take it back as now its used. id ask for some money or something in the form of a store credit or gift card. that is a shitty way to treat a customer, but its not unheard of. oh, Accustocks have an extra screw in the bottom compared to non-accustocks.

    from this site

    fcp-k.jpg
     
    #5
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    Yeah, I knew that the new models have a different action.
    IF there are no substantive differences other than the stock, I was contemplating asking them to send me- at their expense- one of the B&C stocks with the aluminum bedding blocks as a compromise.

    And yes, I do expect them to exchange the gun. It wasn't my error...this retailer also sells used guns, so as far as I'm concerned it can be resold there. I didn't get, what I paid for...
     
    #6
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    Sounds suspicously like Bud's.

    I have had good luck with them, but they have a reputation for lacking CS. It does state on their website that once you sign for it, it is yours.

    HOWEVER, you paid for a new manufacture, accustock rifle, that is NOT what they delivered.

    They misrepresented what they sold you. You MAY have legal backup here, but usually the elements of a crime are "intentionally, knowingly or recklessly" and usually also by overt acts or omission.
     
    #7
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    write down names of the people you call as well as document the time of the calls.
    Once you have enough "bad answers" demand to talk to management. If that Manager can not make it happen ask for his Boss. May take many calls but I'd call them till they were tired of hearing my voice.

    No way I'd accept that kind of treatment as a paying customer buying their "new" product.
     
    #8
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    Good advice (documentation)...
    I'm trying the old "catch more flies with honey" approach first...
    We'll see.
     
    #9
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    I'd be beyond pissed. Once I got a "No" the first time, i would have burned them at the stake. No regrets, no remorse, no sympathy.
     
    #10
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    Man, I'm glad I saw this thread. I'm about to go pick up a rifle from Bu.. I mean "a major online retailer". I didn't realize once you sign for it they won't take it back, even if it's the wrong model. It gets me to wondering ust how far a place like that would take some BS policy like that. So if I buy a rifle with a 5R stock and I get an SPS Tactituperware stock and don't catch it before I sign for it. I'm out the cash for the 5R stock I paid for? Sounds like someone's asking for a lawsuit eventually if you ask me. I'll proceed with the utmost caution when dealing with these folks then and find another dealer from now on. It sounds like good policy no matter who you're dealing with. Thanks for the heads up.
     
    #11
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    two things...

    1) you're right, I'd be pissed and my attorney would be calling them as soon as I got the first "we can't take it back".

    2) IMHO you got a better rifle, I don't like the accu-stock, it was a fix for something that wasn't broken, the one you got has plastic pilars, should still be a sub MOA gun, my problem with Savage stocks was, and still is, their fit to me, not the attainable accuracy of them... even the accu-stock's comb is too low for a scoped rifle
     
    #13
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: asiparks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you pay for it with a credit card ? If so, take your complaint to your CC company, have them charge it back to the retailer. </div></div>

    Good point.
    I need to check...but I <span style="font-style: italic">think</span>I used the check card for the purchase.
    Lesson learned.
    They don't afford the same protection as credit cards- I'll remember this for future purchases.
     
    #14
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    let me start by saying this sucks and is wrong

    however, this is buyer beware.... the diffs between the new accustock/action and the old one are dramatic
    you dont have to disassemble the rifle to tell either

    im lucky to have an ffl that would have noticed the diffs before i signed for it. this is a new ffl for me with a storefront.

    i would continue the path your on to seek resolution, but
    if this is a purchase for your son, dont miss the opportunity
    to teach him a lesson in life and to stay positive.

    the worst that could happen is that you would have to share the
    fun in teaching hime how to bed the action in another stock.

    again this sucks, been there myself.
    good luck
     
    #15
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    Just in case you didn't catch it from Axeman's photo's, in answer to one of your final questions, one thing that sets the accu-stock apart from the older stocked versions is the addition of it being a detachable box magazine. I definitely think this makes the newer production models "superior" to the older versions. It may not be the best DBM ever invented but that is a huge difference, and part of what you paid the higher price for.
     
    #16
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    Thanks, didn't know that.
    Actually, it looks almost identical, I can't tell it's not a floorplate from the photo. The only visible difference is the bolt release is now over the rear action screw.

    It's day three, no response, and I'm about to come unglued...
     
    #17
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    Intentionally, knowingly and recklessly pertain to criminal matters. This is strictly a civil issue, there is no culpable mental state involved.

    Having said, you could consider small claims court.

    41
     
    #18
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    day three? dont let it get to day two man. call them every day, morning noon and night. the squealy wheel get the grease as they say. ramp it up. id be on the phone working my way up the chain and taking notes and names at every call.
     
    #19
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KeithR41</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Intentionally, knowingly and recklessly pertain to criminal matters. This is strictly a civil issue, there is no culpable mental state involved.

    Having said, you could consider small claims court.

    41 </div></div>

    true.
    However a case COULD be made for fraud. They (apparently) represented the bill of goods as a new manufacture accu-stock model, yet sold him an older model at the higher price.

    Fraud is a criminal offense.

    Civil restitution is also available, making a case of breach of contract.
     
    #20
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    fraud over state lines is a federal offense, although if it involves a firearm I'm sure its a federal offense anyway. The FBI has an internet fraud division, just tell them you are going to report them for misrepresentation of a firearm.
     
    #21
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2guard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">fraud over state lines is a federal offense, although if it involves a firearm I'm sure its a federal offense anyway. The FBI has an internet fraud division, just tell them you are going to report them for misrepresentation of a firearm. </div></div>

    I think it's coming to that...
    After twenty minutes on hold, I'm told the guy I need to speak with isn't "available"...
    After my shitfit, they connect me with the same guy I spoke with Monday, that told me he couldn't do anything.

    He said he understood my position, that I wanted the current model rifle I ordered.
    He then offered $100 refund so I could buy my own Accustock, and asked me to hold while he called Savage.
    Of course, he came back and told me what I already knew- you can't "upgrade" an old Savage action to the Accustock.

    I told him I'd accept $200 so I could buy a B&C Medalist (actually, they cost a bit more than that)...

    "OH, WE CAN'T DO THAT!"

    " Well, take the fucking 5 year old rifle back that you sold me and send me what I paid for!"

    "I'll speak with **** and see if we can come up with something else"

    I was told that I'll hear from them by phone or email by EOD tomorrow.

    They send me a 5 year old, out-of-production rifle, then quibble when I'm willing to settle for $200...which is less than the stock is gonna cost me.

    That call to the FBI internet fraud division sounds like a great idea. If avoiding that inquiry isn't worth an extra $100 to them, they must be a bunch of idiots.

    I'll update when it's resolved (or not). Thanks for the input, guys.
     
    #25
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    Since they said they would give you money for a accustock replacement, tell them you will take retail cost on the accustock quoted price directly from savage. The replacement will probably be $200-300 directly from savage. Tell them you want to buy a new one, since the gun is "new", and you do not want to deal with them anymore and will only take cash from them to purchase a stock from savage directly.

    Or, Contact Joe DeGrande at savage

    Joe DeGrande
    Director Of Customer Service
    Savage Arms, Inc.

    413-568-7001 ext 4139
    [email protected]
     
    #26
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    also what do you have from your order? a stock number, an order confirmation number, item number, the summary of the sale, any and all of the stuff that was generated from the order when you placed it, get that and print it out so you have proof of what you ordered from them. in case anything on the site changes
     
    #27
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    Hmmm...I'm not seeing anywhere in the OP's post where he says that the retailer he bought the rifle from was advertising it as an accustock rifle. If it wasn't specifically advertised as such then the buyer has absolutely no recourse here
    If it was advertised as an accustock then its time to take them to small claims at the very least.
    However, fwiw, the accustock ain't all its cracked up to be anyway. If you got this at a lower than usual price then you got a good deal on a gun you can build on. And I'm not sure which particular model 11 you got but not all of them come with a detachable box magazine.
     
    #28
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    I got my rifle from Buds and it came exactly as advertised with no problems at all. I will say that Buds does not give detailed descriptions of the rifle you're buying in all cases. Mine was pretty descriptive minus the exact model, ie 10fcp, but others were much less descriptive. They also have a disclaimer that lets you know the rifle in the pic may not be the exact rifle you get in the mail and to call them for any specific info or questions. Here's the link to the rifle I bought. "IF", and it's a BIG "IF" at this point, it was Buds the OP got his from, he has no case against Buds. He just didn't look very hard at the not so fine print. Look right below the pic of the rifle for the disclaimer.

    http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411540368

    I only went with this rifle after reading a couple of folks feedback on theirs from Buds. I knew what I was getting before I bought it.

    I would be interested to see a link to the page his rifle is on.
     
    #30
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bodywerks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmm...I'm not seeing anywhere in the OP's post where he says that the retailer he bought the rifle from was advertising it as an accustock rifle. If it wasn't specifically advertised as such then the buyer has absolutely no recourse here
    If it was advertised as an accustock then its time to take them to small claims at the very least.
    However, fwiw, the accustock ain't all its cracked up to be anyway. If you got this at a lower than usual price then you got a good deal on a gun you can build on. And I'm not sure which particular model 11 you got but not all of them come with a detachable box magazine. </div></div>

    Gotta respectfully disagree with you here...

    First step in selecting the rifle I purchased was going to Savage's website and reviewing the different models, and the <span style="font-weight: bold">features</span>of each. I selected the Model 11 because this model featured the Accustock- according to the manufacturer's own website. I go to the dealer's website, select that model and hit the "buy" button. I see no logic in your statement. And no, I didn't get it at a lower price.

    You don't think I should expect what I see on the manufacturer's website as a current model???

    As already stated, I did in fact call Savage first to make sure it wasn't a mistake on their website. It wasn't...

    It is up to the <span style="font-weight: bold">DEALER</span>to fully disclose if they are selling anything other than the current model as offered by the manufacturer.

    It would have been a no-brainer if Savage had changed the model number when they changed they rifle- and they should have IMO.
    But they didn't- so the onus is on the dealer.
     
    #31
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    It doesn't matter what the manufacturers website says, it matters what the dealer website's description says. Did it say that it was the new accustock model?
    I'm sorry you didn't get what you thought you were getting but it is fairly common knowledge That there are usually numerous different versions of rifle models, particularly in savages and remmingtons. Its not the dealer's fault if the buyer is unaware of that.
     
    #32
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    its gonna boil down to what the ad said when you placed your order in court. before it gets there its gonna boil down to how much they want to keep you happy. and how they want to be perceived at a merchant. look at the ad you ordered from. save it as a screen shot in case they are now altering it or any other info on their site. they could slip in a new disclaimer that says they are covered against this situation. get screen shots, if you dont know how take pictures with a digital camera. get your documentation down cause thats gonna be what helps you should you have to go to court. what does the order page say for this model at the place you bought it from?

    and either way, dumping 5 year old stock on a customer sucks. they know as well as us that there have been changes in the last 5 years.
     
    #33
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    You do have a point about that, Ax. Definitely uncool of them to sell such old stock without explicitly stating so but its not illegal. I am still curious as to which model 11 we are talking about - there are at least a dozen versions listed on the savage website and that doesn't include models made exclusively for specific dealers.
    And I'd think that if the model he is talking about is still listed on their site but the sku numbers don't match then that's another way the dealer gets out of any liability.
     
    #34
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    FINAL UPDATE:

    I'm pleased to announce that the dealer has stepped-up and resolved the matter.
    I was given the choice of an exchange, or the $200 refund I requested. The B&C Medalist is the least expensive stock I know of with an integral aluminum bedding block that would be similar to the Accustock, and will cost a bit more than that to purchase.

    I allowed my son to make the decision as it's his rifle. Given the logistics of return/exchange, he decided to go with the refund for me to buy the B&C stock. This will-likely- also be the least hassle and expense for the dealer as well.

    To my surprise- the dealer did not receive this rifle direct from the manufacturer for their stock as I had assumed given their huge volume. Rather, it came from another distributor. I'm guessing they'll take this issue up with them...

    So, a satisfactory resolution.
    Sometimes it's a matter of getting to the "decision-maker" to get the right thing done, and it finally happened. I do believe it would have been resolved sooner, were it not for the huge volume of inquiries they are no doubt dealing with after the holiday rush.

    Yes, it was Bud's Guns...
    And they will continue to receive my business as they should, after standing behind their products.

    End of thread...
     
    #37
    Re: "Older", "New" Savage, vs. "New", "New" Savage...

    Glad to see you got this worked out and also happy to see you decided to go with the Savage. One thing you need to know, if you have a DBM, the B&C will not be inletted for it and you'll need to send it to Jeff at CDI or any other reputable smith that can perform the work. If you don't want to deal with all the hassle, get a Choate. I just posted some pics up of mine in the Savage thread in the Field Photography section. I modified mine a little bit and if you decide you want to go this route, just PM and I'll be happy to help you out since we live so close
     
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