One rifle: how to manage with an M24?

[SquarePizza]

After experiencing mag issues in PRS, I've been rethinking the rifle I would take to a "one rifle" class. I've always wanted to attend a class like the one thunder ranch did a few years ago, challenging people to bring only one rifle for shots ranging from 25 to 600 yards. Living in a ban state the universal AR is out for me, and I've always been a bolt guy anyways.

This got me thinking about ammo management if I were to run an internal mag, such as an M24.

For prs, that has been simple for me. Just adding a stock pack with ammo loops.

Going back to the class, AR guys may have a battle belt or chest rig with spare mags. But how would the bolt gun guy do it? Old school ammo loops on the belt like the old west? Dump pouches like the revolver era police?

I know it may sound stupid to limit one's self in such a way, this is kind of a slow shift, being bored all night thought experiment. But after having mags go tits up it really did make me think... What if I really was limited to one rifle with an internal mag, how would I get it done?

 

[Alpine 338]

I ran a Rem 5R for a few years. Even though I never completed with it, I could run it fast. I would place a Kifaru zippered pouch with loose ammo next to me, and single feed rounds. It was a 308, and I mainly used 175-SMKs. Just throwing a round in the open action nose forward gave me 100% reliable feeding. Obviously, other calibers/bullet combinations may not work well with this method.

You can also add a SAP two round holder on the side of the stock in front of the action.

 

[308pirate]

After experiencing mag issues in PRS, I've been rethinking the rifle I would take to a "one rifle" class. I've always wanted to attend a class like the one thunder ranch did a few years ago, challenging people to bring only one rifle for shots ranging from 25 to 600 yards. Living in a ban state the universal AR is out for me, and I've always been a bolt guy anyways.

This got me thinking about ammo management if I were to run an internal mag, such as an M24.

For prs, that has been simple for me. Just adding a stock pack with ammo loops.

Going back to the class, AR guys may have a battle belt or chest rig with spare mags. But how would the bolt gun guy do it? Old school ammo loops on the belt like the old west? Dump pouches like the revolver era police?

I know it may sound stupid to limit one's self in such a way, this is kind of a slow shift, being bored all night thought experiment. But after having mags go tits up it really did make me think... What if I really was limited to one rifle with an internal mag, how would I get it done?

Why not fix your detachable magazine issues?

 

[cliffy110]

So this is an interesting topic. I've been to several classes that don't quite match what you're talking about but I'll share what I saw. I'm a scout/practical rifle guy and those classes are essentially about running a bolt gun as a fighting rifle from 10 to 300 yards. Some of it was done in a leisurely manner but other drills were fast and furious.

In those classes, I saw several AICS pattern mags with issues. Most of the problems were during mag changes and it was painful to watch. They are just clunky and it is easy to seat them improperly. Topping them off is slow and cumbersome. I also saw a few genuine mechanical issues such as the mag not fully engaging the mag catch and falling out under recoil. In watching this and by personal experience, I vowed to never own an AICS pattern mag.

That presents some obvious problems since everybody and their mother uses this style of magazine. I am in an extreme minority in my opinion on this. In the precision rifle world, you don't have a lot of choices. In my scout rifle world, I elected to go with the Steyr which has a proprietary double column mag which I have found to be VERY reliable and easy to use.

But I digress... that isn't what you asked.

I have seen a number of guys with blind of hinged floorplate magazines in these classes. Many tried various pouches and most didn't work well. Either they were too slow and limited in capacity or they dumped ammo on the ground when they dove into prone position. Dump pouches were the worst.

The way that worked best was the most simple. Cargo pockets stuffed with loose ammo.

Yup... just a pair of 5.11 pants with loose ammo in the thigh pocket was fast, reliable and didn't spill ammo.

I had an opportunity to run several drills with one of Jeff Cooper's scout rifles (Scout VI if you're interested) and that is how I ran it. I was surprised as how well this worked. I never found myself fumbling for things and was able to keep topped off rather well. I didn't feel like it was any kind of handicap and in some ways was even better than a detachable mag.

 

[Huskydriver]

Two words.... Accuracy International

 

[sinister]

While capable of superior precision, an internal-magazine 700 has NEVER been the rifle to use for multiple-target rapid-fire engagements. If it was, it would still rule the roost. As it is (for military use) it is obsolescent (not extinct, but perhaps not for general-purpose first-line).

The AI was the first successful and available bolt gun magazine, and thus became the standard. There are a few others (to include H-S Precision's single stack).

You have LOTS of after-market choices, but few that use alternate magazines. Once upon a time there were outfits that would even retro-fit your action for M14 magazines.

OP, to your original point, you have a few options. An "Ammo wallet" can lay out rounds for plucking and dropping into your blind internal mag. You can use a loading block, but then you have to try to move it. As above, you can glue elastic bands to the side of your rifle like many do with shotguns for a couple (or more) rounds to pluck and shove into the gun. You can glue a longer elastic flap for five or more rounds to do the same.

The problem with internal mag replenishment and topping off includes breaking position (at the minimum removing your firing hand from the rifle) or taking your eye out of the scope to pluck and feed. If you bobble a load you have to grab another.

 

[TurboTrout]

I don’t think you could use a stripper clip on that, hmmm

If the rifle is accurate and you like it, what about just putting it into a different stock/chassis with accommodations and a new bottom metal for detachable mags?

The internal mag, I’m not sure how you could overcome that really well in a competition setting, be like trying to run a single action revolver against semi and modern revolvers, only so much you can do on that reload

 

[SquarePizza]

I never assumed internal mags would be a first choice for an engagement or put me in the winners circle at match.

However returning to the thunder ranch example, Clint was always a proponent of being a student to all types of firearms and making due with what you have at hand. For a farmer that could mean there remington 700 on the wall.

The pocket full of shells is probably the best solution until you have to trek across the facility. I just shot a revolver class with Greg Ellifritz and we made a lot of use of our pockets as storage devices. Worked awesome, but sweaty and chaffing by the end of the day.

If movement or stalking were required, such as in a competition dynamics style setting, I wondered about admin pouches with loops inside them to keep the ammo from bouncing around. But as Cliffy110 noted above, they might be slow and fumbly.

I dunno, just something fun to think about when I cannot go out and shoot. My next prs match is going to be with a 700P just for fun so I may try to put some of these ideas to work.

 

[cliffy110]

The pocket full of shells is probably the best solution until you have to trek across the facility. I just shot a revolver class with Greg Ellifritz and we made a lot of use of our pockets as storage devices. Worked awesome, but sweaty and chaffing by the end of the day.

If movement or stalking were required, such as in a competition dynamics style setting, I wondered about admin pouches with loops inside them to keep the ammo from bouncing around. But as Cliffy110 noted above, they might be slow and fumbly.

For the trek across the facility, a pocket full of shells isn't the answer. I haven't taken Clint's class but I have taken Randy Cain's (twice) and Tom Russell's at the Whittington Center (twice) and my solution was to have about 20 rounds on my person but also a small carry bag with as much as I could possibly need before going back into the shed to reload.

Again... I'm NOT telling you that this is your solution. I'm telling you what worked for me and the guys in my classes. The guys with internal mags did well with a pocket stuffed with ammo and a small carry bag with 2 or 4 boxes. Refill pocket as needed.

Edit to add:

I did a video on preparing for a scout/practical rifle class. Not much of it applies to you in this situation but if you go to 8:00 of the video, I cover ammo management. At 9:55, you'll see my carry bag and at 10:44, I describe the internal magazine situation.

 

[Huskydriver]

The 1980s want their problems and tactics back...

 

[sinister]

Not the school solution, but you can always tape, velcro, or wood screw a cartridge holder to the side of your stock (one to the butt, one closer to the port):

 

[SquarePizza]

Speaking of, can you help find tactical hairspray?

I think I peeked early in the 90s when my state went full retard and banned everything cool.

 

[sinister]

No, sorry -- wasn't a SEAL.

I think they have a (very expensive) unique MOLLE pouch and they carry it next to their Coppertone.

(Can't be a hater if it's in their job description).

(SERVICE RIVALRY COMIC RELIEF:

How can you stop a SEAL in his tracks in the middle of the woods?

Put up a full-length mirror.)

 

[scharfschutze762]

I have no experience with this product but saw it somewhere. Maybe someone here has experience with it.

M5 M24A2 SWS Triggerguard (Fits Remington L/A BDL Inlet Only)

P/N 306-85

www.badgerordnance.com

 

[SquarePizza]

That is nice bottom metal, but I am leaving my 700police internal mag. It's actuallys old enough to be tapped for iron sights.

I have other mag fed bolt guns and experienced mag failures during prs matches, so I like having one rifle that does not depend on mags.

But I also know that nothing makes me learn how to manage ammo and reloads than running a gun in an event that it is handicapped. For example, I've run idpa with both revolvers and a glock 39. I'd rather learn the hard way than run a glock 19 and have better times. I'm in this to learn not to win.

 

[sinister]

I suppose it all depends on the game. You have to make a determined effort to learn not to win.

 

[Huskydriver]

That is nice bottom metal, but I am leaving my 700police internal mag. It's actuallys old enough to be tapped for iron sights.

I have other mag fed bolt guns and experienced mag failures during prs matches, so I like having one rifle that does not depend on mags.

But I also know that nothing makes me learn how to manage ammo and reloads than running a gun in an event that it is handicapped. For example, I've run idpa with both revolvers and a glock 39. I'd rather learn the hard way than run a glock 19 and have better times. I'm in this to learn not to win.

You are running shitty rifles in prs then.....

 

[DocRDS]

Get your mags to work.

Modern Problems require modern solutions.

The #1 issue with mags is crappy mags. Back in the ol AWB ban days you had to get these cheap Thermold Mags or beat up ass end USGI mags for AR-15s. I bought the thermolds. A young gentleman (I was even younger) at the time showed me how to scrape the plastic lips to make them work.

And told me to buy ass end USGI mags. Cause they work. (remember this was AWB days so no new mags). Low and behold, problem solved.

1911--jam o matic. Why is that? 99% of time: cheap ass mags. Wilson or Chip McCormick mags--problem solved.
Why do all the limited shooters play hundreds of dollars for their widebody mags.

Because the work.

Get some good mags. Make em work.

 

[SquarePizza]

AICS mags fail too. I've experienced it directly and observed others have mags go down on the clock. It happens.

 

[cliffy110]

AICS mags fail too. I've experienced it directly and observed others have mags go down on the clock. It happens.

Okay... so since we've gotten past your original question of how to manage ammo on internal magazine, I'll rant even more about my distain for single column mags in bolt guns. They suck. Everything is slow and deliberate. If you are in a hurry, you're going to fumble it. If you need to stuff 2 or 3 rounds in the top to finish a stage or drill, you'll curse it. I'm sure genuine AICS mags are better than MagPul in terms of reliability and actually staying in the gun, but they are still slow to load and require two hands to top off.

Again, my experience is not PRS shooting. It is scout/practical rifle training so I'm sure there is a difference in ammo management, but after watching guys still fighting their equipment at the end of a 5 day class, I will never own another one (I did shoot a Sig Cross at a Randy Cain class and sold the gun at the end of it mostly due to irritation with the mags). I'd take a blind mag over that any day and twice on Sunday.

Blind mags are not sexy and you can't load them to full capacity as quickly, but in terms of keeping them running, they are far less of a handicap than one would think. At least if you practice and train with it which it sounds like you are. Practice the art of topping off without looking at the action. I'd love to hear an AAR if you run it in a competition.

 

[Huskydriver]

there is a reason AI figured this shit out Aw/ ax mags. As long as you are not running some 6br wildcat gayness they just run.

 

[DocRDS]

there is a reason AI figured this shit out Aw/ ax mags. As long as you are not running some 6br wildcat gayness they just run.

That feeling when you just realize your on order AT-X comes with an AW mag!

 

[Huskydriver]

That feeling when you just realize your on order AT-X comes with an AW mag!

I thought you sold your slot in line to @deersniper

 

[deersniper]

 

[Lunar95]

I don't think iv ever seen a AICS magazine related malfunction other than not fulling seating the mag

 

[Greg Langelius *]

When I had my M70 30-06 I used the M-1923 Rifle Belt and 2 stripper clips of 5rd each in a pocket for a total of 100rd. They can get heavy, so... The 308/M-14 stripper clip works for either 308 or 30-06 based cartridge chamberings, and the pockets are deep enough for either. If you use an accurized Garand, the belt is made to accept 8rd Enbloc Clips. In a pinch, other strippers can be used, but the GI stuff works best.

Greg

PS What I'd like to see is a bolt action built to accept M1 Garand clips through the top. It would probably work OK with any 308 or 30-06 case based chambering, 243 to 35 Whelen. That would be especially dandy with a switch barrel setup. Set it up to eject the empty clips just like the Garand. Old can be new. I was told the Garand could not be topped off. I found that not to be the case, and it would probably be even easier with a bolt action. Us older N/M shooters also learned how to make the Enbloc work with less than 8rd, too.

It would also defeat any 10rd magazine restrictions coming down the pike, since the Enbloc is not defined as a magazine, and holds less than ten rounds. This current term is going to make Garands a lot more valuable. The GI's made do with eights in the big one, so can we. I'd do mine with .260's, if the bolt version ever actually materializes.

 

[Campguy308]

How many rounds are you needing at the ready? The SAP style 2 round holders should be a part of your solution IMO. You could use 2 or 3 of them.

Also, the only AICS mag problems i have seen much of is with the baby paint scratcher cartridges. I have had more problems with the newer Rem 700 internal BDL mag than AICS and Accurate mags.

 

[SquarePizza]

@cliffy110

I went to shoot at the WAR Rifles PRS match yesterday and just wanted to toss up a quick AAR after running my 700P.

Before going to the match I had been planning on running a waist ammo pouch just in case I dropped a bullet and needed an extra, but on arrival I decided to skip the pouch. It was cold out and my jacket went below my belt and I figured that it would be too hard to reach the pouch.

I put 4 rounds in my pocket and 6 rounds in loops on the stock pack. When told to load and make ready I used the 4 in my pocket and simply single fed out of the stock pack after the first 4 were gone. I had zero complications and had a great time running the rifle. While it is slower to single feed, this is only my second PRS match and I typically time out after 7 rounds anyways.

While I was plugging away, four of the other guys on my squad had AICS mag problems. Two were jammed in too deep and failed to feed, one mag dropped free on the way to the barricade, and one mag broke its spring. My biggest problem was a sore thumb from feeding the internal mag, and breaking position slightly in order to grab a fresh round.

I had a blast with the rifle and in no way felt like I was being held back by using an internal mag. The leupold mk4 10x has a fast eyebox and the new 169grain SMKs were amazing out to 1k, I missed the 1250yard target but only because I was too high. Wonderful day and I can't wait for next season.

 

[Huskydriver]

Glad you had a great time that's really all that matters at the end of the day.

Seriously though....ai with aw/ax mags all day ftw....

 

[LoCal247]

I hope this is a long troll

 

[Choid]

I never assumed internal mags would be a first choice for an engagement or put me in the winners circle at match.

However returning to the thunder ranch example, Clint was always a proponent of being a student to all types of firearms and making due with what you have at hand. For a farmer that could mean there remington 700 on the wall.

The pocket full of shells is probably the best solution until you have to trek across the facility. I just shot a revolver class with Greg Ellifritz and we made a lot of use of our pockets as storage devices. Worked awesome, but sweaty and chaffing by the end of the day.

If movement or stalking were required, such as in a competition dynamics style setting, I wondered about admin pouches with loops inside them to keep the ammo from bouncing around. But as Cliffy110 noted above, they might be slow and fumbly.

I dunno, just something fun to think about when I cannot go out and shoot. My next prs match is going to be with a 700P just for fun so I may try to put some of these ideas to work.

I'm not sure the concept of being able to use any weapon really means that if you have a weapon and time to fix it, make sure you don't make it any better so that life can be tough. It's a great principle in the field, but each time you have your rifle and your workbench and don't make it better, it is on you.

 

[MK20]

Anyone who thinks an internal mag is the best or even a really good option has never been shot at. You want more ammo, faster, and all your friends with their guns and ammo.

 

[pmclaine]

So this is an interesting topic. I've been to several classes that don't quite match what you're talking about but I'll share what I saw. I'm a scout/practical rifle guy and those classes are essentially about running a bolt gun as a fighting rifle from 10 to 300 yards. Some of it was done in a leisurely manner but other drills were fast and furious.

In those classes, I saw several AICS pattern mags with issues. Most of the problems were during mag changes and it was painful to watch. They are just clunky and it is easy to seat them improperly. Topping them off is slow and cumbersome. I also saw a few genuine mechanical issues such as the mag not fully engaging the mag catch and falling out under recoil. In watching this and by personal experience, I vowed to never own an AICS pattern mag.

That presents some obvious problems since everybody and their mother uses this style of magazine. I am in an extreme minority in my opinion on this. In the precision rifle world, you don't have a lot of choices. In my scout rifle world, I elected to go with the Steyr which has a proprietary double column mag which I have found to be VERY reliable and easy to use.

But I digress... that isn't what you asked.

I have seen a number of guys with blind of hinged floorplate magazines in these classes. Many tried various pouches and most didn't work well. Either they were too slow and limited in capacity or they dumped ammo on the ground when they dove into prone position. Dump pouches were the worst.

The way that worked best was the most simple. Cargo pockets stuffed with loose ammo.

Yup... just a pair of 5.11 pants with loose ammo in the thigh pocket was fast, reliable and didn't spill ammo.

I had an opportunity to run several drills with one of Jeff Cooper's scout rifles (Scout VI if you're interested) and that is how I ran it. I was surprised as how well this worked. I never found myself fumbling for things and was able to keep topped off rather well. I didn't feel like it was any kind of handicap and in some ways was even better than a detachable mag.

I have anxiety when I know my magazines are not topped off.

Be it rifle or pistol I have my right cargo full of ammo and any chance I get Im topping off mags.

Only mag rifles I have are AR types and my GI mags have been 100%.

All my current bolt rifles internal mags.

Remingtons are the worst of the bunch and I will often "float" a follower resulting in fucked up feeding if I am in a hurry. Often dumping the hinged floor is the only remedy.

Winchester 70 and springfield 03s seem to suffer this issue less.

Perhaps a short vs long action issue.

I have a DBM Remington being built by LRI now...hoping for AR reliability.

 

[cliffy110]

@cliffy110

I went to shoot at the WAR Rifles PRS match yesterday and just wanted to toss up a quick AAR after running my 700P.

Before going to the match I had been planning on running a waist ammo pouch just in case I dropped a bullet and needed an extra, but on arrival I decided to skip the pouch. It was cold out and my jacket went below my belt and I figured that it would be too hard to reach the pouch.

I put 4 rounds in my pocket and 6 rounds in loops on the stock pack. When told to load and make ready I used the 4 in my pocket and simply single fed out of the stock pack after the first 4 were gone. I had zero complications and had a great time running the rifle. While it is slower to single feed, this is only my second PRS match and I typically time out after 7 rounds anyways.

While I was plugging away, four of the other guys on my squad had AICS mag problems. Two were jammed in too deep and failed to feed, one mag dropped free on the way to the barricade, and one mag broke its spring. My biggest problem was a sore thumb from feeding the internal mag, and breaking position slightly in order to grab a fresh round.

I had a blast with the rifle and in no way felt like I was being held back by using an internal mag. The leupold mk4 10x has a fast eyebox and the new 169grain SMKs were amazing out to 1k, I missed the 1250yard target but only because I was too high. Wonderful day and I can't wait for next season.

That is just awesome. Well done. You've already been accused of trolling because this isn't the conventional wisdom, but I think there really is something to this. Yes, single stack magazines can be run well. They can also be a pain in the ass. They are not easy to load through the ejection port. They are easy to fumble, load improperly, fail to seat and a host of other issues. They are fast for a full reload but only if the shooter does everything exactly right as you witnessed.

You've now had experience with top loading a blind magazine. I did the same at a practical rifle class and the dexterity involved isn't as bad as many would have you believe. In fact, it is remarkably quick and easy. A bit of practice and training and you're at FAR less handicap than most would assume and your payoff is reliability.

Well done and thanks for the AAR.

 

[Jabot]

People still use blind mags, um wierd

 

[SquarePizza]

Nope, not a troll, just a poor.

Here is a photo of my 700P at WAR Rifles this weekend to prove that my questions were legit. My entire gear investment was less than $1200 (rifle, glass, bag and ammo). I'm not going to drop $10k to shoot PRS, I have a wife and newborn, I ain't got that kind of cash.

Instead, I'm going to run what I have and enjoy every moment of it. Yes, I have a 6br with AICS mags, and I did run that for my first PRS event. However, I have more 308 ammo and if I lose brass its cheap to replace. I learned that single feeding is not as stupid as it sounds, and with practice I believe that I may not even have to come off glass to feed in the next round.

You're not going to catch me bitching because this piece gear didn't work, or must I have missed because of spin drift, or a breeze kicked up and pulled my shot. I'm just there to have a great time and if I miss then its all me and I'm ok with that.

 

[LoCal247]

I'm not sure the concept of being able to use any weapon really means that if you have a weapon and time to fix it, make sure you don't make it any better so that life can be tough. It's a great principle in the field, but each time you have your rifle and your workbench and don't make it better, it is on you.

This I why I thought you were just messing around. You can improve your rifle over time. Starting with no knowledge then reading and tinkering could lead to improving (or completely ruining) your tool. Trying putting bottom metal on ur rifle. Hundreds of thousands of rifles have been modified this way. Yes some work better than others but it’s better than trying to add ammo to an internal mag with time constraints.
Respectfully

 

[Powder_Burns]

Move to a free state and run an AR. Problem(s) solved.

 

[Downzero]

Move to a free state and run an AR. Problem(s) solved.

My thought as well. I would have no need for a bolt gun to shoot 600 yards. My 223, 20" AR with 77 SMKs will do that all day long.

 

[pmclaine]

I was shooting a class next to this guy.....

at Sig Sauer "Reach for 1000".

It was the only rifle he could find the week before he took the whole PSR curriculum 101, 102 and 103. He bought it at Dicks in CT.

He bought the scope first day at SIg for his PSR 101 class. It broke at the end of his PSR 102 class and on the day this photo was taken that was a new scope zeroed that morning.

He was crushing steel at 1000 with 168 FGMM.

He did everything we are told can not be done.

I was also a contrarian for this class using a 3-9X Leupold on an M40 clone. Had to dial down to 4.5X in order to get enough mil dots to hit at 1000 yards......

Not the bow......

 

[LoCal247]

Haha or the Indian.
More like the village

 

[Huskydriver]

I was shooting a class next to this guy.....

View attachment 7729534

at Sig Sauer "Reach for 1000".

It was the only rifle he could find the week before he took the whole PSR curriculum 101, 102 and 103. He bought it at Dicks in CT.

He bought the scope first day at SIg for his PSR 101 class. It broke at the end of his PSR 102 class and on the day this photo was taken that was a new scope zeroed that morning.

He was crushing steel at 1000 with 168 FGMM.

He did everything we are told can not be done.

I was also a contrarian for this class using a 3-9X Leupold on an M40 clone. Had to dial down to 4.5X in order to get enough mil dots to hit at 1000 yards......

View attachment 7729536

Not the bow......

@pmclaine preparing to hit the firing line... He's got 6 shots ready to go with one in the chamber.... Easily good out to 800 or so with today's muzzle loaders......

 

[pmclaine]

@pmclaine preparing to hit the firing line... He's got 6 shots ready to go with one in the chamber.... Easily good out to 800 or so with today's muzzle loaders......


View attachment 7729538

That a high speed chest rig....I wonder if @TheGerman would approve.

 

[Supersubes]

After experiencing mag issues in PRS, I've been rethinking the rifle I would take to a "one rifle" class. I've always wanted to attend a class like the one thunder ranch did a few years ago, challenging people to bring only one rifle for shots ranging from 25 to 600 yards. Living in a ban state the universal AR is out for me, and I've always been a bolt guy anyways.

This got me thinking about ammo management if I were to run an internal mag, such as an M24.

For prs, that has been simple for me. Just adding a stock pack with ammo loops.

Going back to the class, AR guys may have a battle belt or chest rig with spare mags. But how would the bolt gun guy do it? Old school ammo loops on the belt like the old west? Dump pouches like the revolver era police?

I know it may sound stupid to limit one's self in such a way, this is kind of a slow shift, being bored all night thought experiment. But after having mags go tits up it really did make me think... What if I really was limited to one rifle with an internal mag, how would I get it done?

The reason the troll comment came about is because your reasoning is off. Nobody cares that you want to play with your 700p. It’s being pushed that way in response to poor reliability by a known finicky combo(6br). Its been said already, but make the necessary changes.




AI’s dont cost $10k…