Rifle Scopes only 8th in line? Really?

[0311 Hesco]

So I just called EuroOptic and got in line for the BEAST with the H59 reticle. he told me I was only 8th in line. I can't seem to figure why they are so low for pre-orders on the Horus reticle mil/mil. I get the love it or hate it attitude on the reticle but I'm very shocked that there are so few waiting in line thru a place like EuroOptic. Anyone want to weigh in why they think this is the case? Am I really missing something with this reticle or something else? your thought...

Also if you are going to purchase, what reticle are you getting?

 

[VJJPunisher]

Peeps wanna wait till the beast is out a little while and any kinks worked out before dumping fuckton a of money?

 

[0311 Hesco]

I guess but that's what the hold up was anyway and I would think maybe because of Nightforce's reputation that it wouldn't affect people as bad. I could very well be wrong thought.

 

[GUNNER10]

meh...

3500 for a great scope you may not see for a year, or you can have a S&B, Stiener, Leupold Mk8, or ect...shipped to your door and be shooting next weekend and the only thing you are losing is NF's new double click system.

IMO the high end scopes these days are so close, you can really flip a coin or throw a dart at a bord to pick your scope and your not going to be at a disadvantage

a 5-20 version of their F1 for under 2000, i would be all over that

 

[thrusty]

Peeps wanna wait till the beast is out a little while and any kinks worked out before dumping fuckton a of money?

^^^^ This...fuckton is a lot of money for the non-gearqueers.

 

[Graham]

only 8th in line? Really?

I intend to wait until NF admits the lesson that they have already learned and releases the FFP that's on the drawing table, regardless of what it does to BEAST sales.

Any reticle that doesn't have hold unders is a tourist trap. I like the H25, but I guess a lot of Horus users plan on having all missed shots impact low left and low right.

 

[Rob01]

Why have the new high speed knob set up on the Beast if you are just going to not touch it and use a Horus reticle?

 

[Graham]

only 8th in line? Really?

Why have the new high speed knob set up on the Beast if you are just going to not touch it and use a Horus reticle?

It's all about features: Scope companies think that the more things a scope does the more desirable it is to the consumer.

Because they know what sells scopes to uncle Elmo: High magnification variables at low cost.

The problem is that to give it features, make it durable, and make it track, that $1500 scope becomes a $4000 monster.

BTW, have you seen the reticle in the Countersniper scope? So many features and no need to dial....LOL!

 

[E. Bryant]

Let me preface this by saying that I may be talking out of my ass. If so, I hope that someone will not simply call me out, but also provide some accurate figures.

So, a few thoughts:

First, the size of the total civilian/commercial market for a high-end scope such as the Beast is probably pretty freakin' small. I'm going to take a SWAG and say that it's measured in the hundreds at best. We're not talking mass-market by any stretch of the imagination.

Second, that small volume is split over multiple retailers. While Euro Optic is one of the larger vendors in this market, you've also got the other "boutique" optics vendors as well as the "big boys" such as Midway. So now we've taken a relatively small number and divided it into even smaller numbers.

Third, the H59 reticle is going to be a niche reticle. Going by posts in the for-sale forums, I'm guessing that it represents maybe ~5% of high-end scope sales.

In light of all that, the response you received from Euro Optic isn't surprising in the least.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Peeps wanna wait till the beast is out a little while and any kinks worked out before dumping fuckton a of money?

agreed!! I'm in the same boat right now with the new S&B PMII 3-27. chomping at the bit to get my hands on it but also wanting to wait and make sure there are no issues.

I've never been a fan of Horus reticles.

 

[Pusher591]

I intend to wait until NF admits the lesson that they have already learned and releases the FFP that's on the drawing table, regardless of what it does to BEAST sales.

Any reticle that doesn't have hold unders is a tourist trap. I like the H25, but I guess a lot of Horus users plan on having all missed shots impact low left and low right.

I could be wrong but, yes low left or low right will more then likely be the miss. I thought that was the main purpose of the Horus was to set the zero (majority of times) at 100 yards, then use holds. I suppose a situation could arrise where the end user would need a hold under but I don't think those situations present themselves often enough to the user that Horus tailors to. If your zero is 100, just hold a hair lower for anything 0-100, the shift isn't going to be that much. If its a close in shot, its going to be a point and shoot situation anyway or if it's a placed shot, you will (or should) know your height over bore to compensate.

Are they putting the FFP ATACR back on the table?

 

[Rob01]

It's all about features: Scope companies think that the more things a scope does the more desirable it is to the consumer.

Because they know what sells scopes to uncle Elmo: High magnification variables at low cost.

The problem is that to give it features, make it durable, and make it track, that $1500 scope becomes a $4000 monster.

BTW, have you seen the reticle in the Countersniper scope? So many features and no need to dial....LOL!

I understand Graham. I was asking the OP his reasoning for basically negating the new features on the scope by making it something he can get on many other 5-25s for less money.

 

[0311 Hesco]

Why have the new high speed knob set up on the Beast if you are just going to not touch it and use a Horus reticle?

I get where you're at here and that's a valid argument. I guess maybe for those who dial half and hold half. Also, what where and how you would be shooting would determine whether you hold or dial. Any thought?

 

[E. Bryant]

I suppose a situation could arrise where the end user would need a hold under but I don't think those situations present themselves often enough to the user that Horus tailors to.

The problem arises when you have one or two close targets and several more at a longer distance. You may wish to dial for the longer targets and use a hold-under for the shorter ones (or simple split the distance with the dialed elevation and use a combination of hold-overs and hold-unders), but holding under with the Horus (at least the H58 and H59 that I own) is difficult as there is only a single light hash mark at 1 mil above center. Some additional stadia marks on this part of the reticle would be really nice for this reason, and the reason to which Graham alluded.

 

[Pusher591]

I get where you're at here and that's a valid argument. I guess maybe for those who dial half and hold half. Also, what where and how you would be shooting would determine whether you hold or dial. Any thought?

Uknown distance shots where you range then dial do your exact hold. Small targets or hostage targets require dialing IMHO but you can get away with wind holds on them. A competition where they have time restraints and need fast holds, a Horus will prevail most of time.

 

[Pusher591]

The problem arises when you have one or two close targets and several more at a longer distance. You may wish to dial for the longer targets and use a hold-under for the shorter ones (or simple split the distance with the dialed elevation and use a combination of hold-overs and hold-unders), but holding under with the Horus (at least the H58 and H59 that I own) is difficult as there is only a single light hash mark at 1 mil above center. Some additional stadia marks on this part of the reticle would be really nice for this reason, and the reason to which Graham alluded.

I agree

 

[verdugo60]

This +1.

meh...

a 5-20 version of their F1 for under 2000, i would be all over that

There would be a way bigger market for this one I would guess, just look at the Vortex Razor and other similar lines, very popular and for good reason. You get a scope that tracks with pretty dang good glass and F1, zero stop, etc. NF fell way behind the curve, and still hasn't gotten an F1 at this price point, which is too bad. I love their tough-as-nails turrets, glass, and that they are made in Idaho. My money will go to a Razor until I'm ready to bump up to a S&B or March. The Beast just wasn't what I was hoping for from them. The fine adjustments ARE kind of cool, but I would think they could sell a boatload more of <$2000 F1's in 5-20x.

 

[0311 Hesco]

I like/agree with what Verdugo said. I own a razor with the ebr-2b reticle and I love that reticle. I am currently brainstorming a pair of .260 builds (one for my wife) and I was going by the adage "buy one cry once" and "go with as much scope as you can afford". So, with that being said, is there a general consensus that the BEAST is just too much scope? I've looked thru an ATACR and I drooled all over the glass. I really like Nightforce as well, however I sold my NSX to fund the Razor and I feel I traded up. My conundrum is that I have been blessed with a decent contract job and the ability to buy a pair of custom rifles and along came a BEAST. Keep coming with the thoughts gents!

 

[poison123]

What the hell is too much scope supposed to mean? If I remember correctly the Price is on par with S&B, Premier, etc.

The only "different" feature is the .2 turret with .1 clicker......past that....its more or less like every other scope in its range.

I've got one of the first pre orders in...and with that said if January 1st rolls around and the scope is not in my hand.....waiting for me is over. I'll go buy a Khales or another S&B at that point because you can only wait so long to put a perm scope on a rifle.

 

[Lowlight]

The Horus is a lowest common denominator tool, its for guys who have little or no experience and don't plan on practicing. That was the original concept.

As long as the shot falls within the FOV on any reticle you can do exactly the same thing without the clutter. Once battle zones move from a sandy, dusty place with plenty of down angles to someplace flat and wooden the next best tool will be talked about.

I shot the BEAST out to distance over the weekend, Had solid hits and only needed to dial using the .25 lever on the targets at 800 & 900, everything else, including my zero was established without needing the 1/4 MOA adjustment.

As far as having to wait a year... completely wrong. It's down the wire, they are moving forward pretty fast now. And Nightforce does not release optics that need to be fixed after. At least I have not experienced that. Maybe they have been misguided on a reticle or two, but as far as function, their scopes work out of the box. They don't release it until they are sure it is gonna work as advertised.

This scope is smaller than every competitor out there who offers the same 5-25x, I had the scope out in front of 25 people on Saturday and they all could not believe the size when compared to scopes like the S&B and Premiers that were on the line. Everyone who wanted a look, got one and everyone was impressed with what NF did with the BEAST. I continue to shoot it and will do so, if something screws up, I will let you know, but so far, no issues.

 

[damoncali]

What's the civilian market size for scopes in that price range anyhow? How many scopes per year? I can't imagine it's huge.

 

[0311 Hesco]

interesting thought there lowlight. anyone else have the other extreme side of that bag of worms? I'd like to hear it.

 

[Lowlight]

It's not a thought but a fact of the matter... It was designed for the owner who liked to hunt but had no interest in practicing. It was originally marketed as a tool for the hunter. Find old ads for it and you'll see.

Initially the competition & civilian market rejected it wholesale. It wasn't until they got deeper into the military did people start to look at it again. Lobbying to the right people changed the dynamic, however that doesn't change the fact of the reticle. First impressions are correct in 99% of the cases, it's busy, it's thick, and everything you can do with a Horus you can do without. That has been proven over and over. Even people who were "paid" to use Horus dropped it.

From 1998 to roughly 2003 Rifles Only was the "Horus" instructors, many of their drills like Moving Chaos were designed to highlight the Horus reticle. Since 2003 they continue to work and improve the Horus drills using a reticle of every type. With great success. When they dropped it from their curriculum, it was picked up by the current training team who put the focus on the military side of things, as Horus was very interested in building a legacy. Which then trickled back down to the civilian side as people felt, "because the Army uses it, it must be good". Under the right conditions, it absolutely works its just mils... change those conditions to even mildly less favorable and it's right back to square one. In fact because people are so dependent on the reticle, any time they miss what they are looking for it's like a deer in a headlight for them. They freeze up struggling for an answer. Forget the number of times, especially under stress, even minimal stress, people hold the wrong line. That is almost a daily occurrence with a lot of users.

We've been on the scene since the beginning and know the history better than most. In fact I still remember being introduced at their first SHOT SHOW. None of this new, not the reticle, the concept, not even your conversation on the subject.

 

[0311 Hesco]

good insight. Thank you. So are you a fan of the old-school mil dots or the newer (relatively) mil-hash?

 

[damoncali]

Has anyone ever made a square reticle? Imagine you had a normal mil-hash sort of reticle. If you want to hold off down and right, for example, you can do that using the ticks as guides. But the farther away from the center you get, the harder it is to be precise about it. Horus tries to fix this with lots of lines, but has a lot of problems that Lowlight articulated pretty well. So why not box that same reticle in a square with ticks along the edges at the same divisions as the cross hair. You might have a relatively clean reticle, but might maintain a bit more precision with large hold-offs because of the extra outer guide marks.

Just thinking out loud here - this may have been done and discarded for all I know.

 

[Lowlight]

The H32 is square, mostly used in Spotters, and Horus sues anyone who creates a hold over reticle with hash marks that does not pay a license fee.

I use,

1. MSR
2. MIL-R
3. P4 / P4F
4. MLR 2.0
5. Klein Reticle

So anything that has at least 1/2 mil hash marks and not much else,

 

[Thebelly]

The H32 is square, mostly used in Spotters, and Horus sues anyone who creates a hold over reticle with hash marks that does not pay a license fee.

Any ideas on how Bushnell does it (G2DMR reticle, or whatever it's called), or have they already been sued? I apologize for pulling this further off topic....

I've followed your BEAST thread and seen the videos a couple times. It's an interesting optic, to be sure.

 

[Lowlight]

Bushnell was sued over the G2DMR, a couple of years ago at SHOT Dennis came by the RO booth and the only thing he was happy about was suing people over the reticle. He was very smart in getting a wide, vague Patent on the reticle at a time when no one was paying attention.

 

[verdugo60]

Interesting background on the Horus Frank, I remember in high-school my LR mentor telling me about it and how they developed it testing in Australia shooting wild donkeys or some shit! Ha. Too busy for my taste...

 

[S12A]

my opinion that 8 people being keen to spend that cash on great class then wrecking it by putting a flyscreen in it is 8 more than there should be.

high speed adjustments are also wasted if you plan on holding , and dialing half then holding half is a recipe for failure .

 

[Cartman]

Peeps wanna wait till the beast is out a little while and any kinks worked out before dumping fuckton a of money?

That may only be one fuckton to you Rockefeller, but for some of us that's three fucktons.

 

[0311 Hesco]

ok lowlight, in regards to the msr, isn't the premise for that reticle down and dirty range estimation? please correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't that be the same "selling it to people that don't want to learn proper range estimation and practice it" I understand it can be used for proper range estimation and such and that there is more to the reticle; and I am not defending the horus reticle, in fact I might (still on the fence) change the order after hearing all this. What I am trying to do is get a broader base on my knowledge on this topic. certainly I would like to hear from ye-that-have-been-around-the-block, but also this is most definitely not the only place that I am doing research about this. Please keep up with the thoughts. thanks for the knowledge

In all honesty my favorite reticle is the ebr-2b on my Razor.

 

[Flyboy22]

ok lowlight, in regards to the msr, isn't the premise for that reticle down and dirty range estimation? please correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't that be the same "selling it to people that don't want to learn proper range estimation and practice it" I understand it can be used for proper range estimation and such and that there is more to the reticle; and I am not defending the horus reticle, in fact I might (still on the fence) change the order after hearing all this. What I am trying to do is get a broader base on my knowledge on this topic. certainly I would like to hear from ye-that-have-been-around-the-block, but also this is most definitely not the only place that I am doing research about this. Please keep up with the thoughts. thanks for the knowledge

In all honesty my favorite reticle is the ebr-2b on my Razor.

I was pretty sold on the Horus after watching Magpul's Art of the Precision Rifle series... The concept does seem interesting. Todd Hodnett is also pretty dang convincing, especially since he obviously has a clue what he's doing. That said, I ultimately changed my mind and went with the MSR based on feedback from many on this forum. Other than being a just a tad thick, I'm pretty happy with my choice so far. Definitely recommend a little unbiased research before making your decision, and saving 400 bucks was nice too.

 

[0311 Hesco]

flyboy, you're right but there really is no unbiased research! just wish I could play with one for a while. I do use my ebr-2b reticle and (I guess that makes me a schmuck with little to no experience) its nice. its easier to spot for people as well as make quick hold shots. the beauty of it is that I can still estimate and dial if I want to. about the whole high speed turrets and not needing them, well the CS dude at Nightforce told me it was the only option for the scopes so its not like I'm buying a turbo charger with an attached supercharger....but hey I don't know that's why I just now start posting after a few years of lurking around here...

 

[Flyboy22]

flyboy, you're right but there really is no unbiased research! just wish I could play with one for a while. I do use my ebr-2b reticle and (I guess that makes me a schmuck with little to no experience) its nice. its easier to spot for people as well as make quick hold shots. the beauty of it is that I can still estimate and dial if I want to. about the whole high speed turrets and not needing them, well the CS dude at Nightforce told me it was the only option for the scopes so its not like I'm buying a turbo charger with an attached supercharger....but hey I don't know that's why I just now start posting after a few years of lurking around here...

Haha, I actually mean unbiasing yourself while researching You're right, everyone is biased, and it's hard to tell for sure what you'll like before you try it. I looked at a lot of pictures, watched all the videos, and listened to some guys with lots of experience. I ultimately decided that dialing is the baseline that's been used for decades, and at the very least I should master that method first. If later on I want to try holds instead, there's no reason I can't. In the mean time, I don't think you can't go wrong with one of the modern MIL reticles (MSR, H2CMR, MIL-R, etc).

There is also an intangible joy in aiming with a crosshair that is genetically encoded into all men. So take that into account as well!

 

[sib1948]

flyboy, you're right but there really is no unbiased research! just wish I could play with one for a while. I do use my ebr-2b reticle and (I guess that makes me a schmuck with little to no experience) its nice. its easier to spot for people as well as make quick hold shots. the beauty of it is that I can still estimate and dial if I want to. about the whole high speed turrets and not needing them, well the CS dude at Nightforce told me it was the only option for the scopes so its not like I'm buying a turbo charger with an attached supercharger....but hey I don't know that's why I just now start posting after a few years of lurking around here...

Love my Vortex Razor HD 5-20X with the 10 mil turrets and EBR-2B reticle on my DTA SRS. Very rugged and accurate scope for the size with good zero stop. No complaints with the Razor for great price, but feel the BEAST in mils will be worth the extra money for clear bright glass and 25X magnification for my 65 year old eyes. Many good premium scopes these days in FFP that will all do the job well for LR and ELR shooters!

The research of all the different scopes just adds to the fun! Luckily, I have not been disappointed with any of my purchases yet. If you do decide later you made a bad choice you can always sell a high end optic for a little less than you paid and long as you don't buy some wierd ass configuration or reticle. I like the KISS theory!

 

[0311 Hesco]

sib you're right on. normally I would just stick with what works and go with another Razor but like I said I have the opportunity to afford something really good for now and would like to use that opportunity to the fullest. I wish I could get an ebr-2b in a Kahles or S&B or well, the BEAST. That would end my confusion.

 

[Lowlight]

By nature, we are drawn to the center of the crosshair. Lining up a definitive intersection is built into our DNA. When you throw up a grid pattern that changes with each shot, the brain does not respond as well as people would like to admit. It takes more time to determine the correct intersection when you have multiple choices.

The focal point of the MSR is not the ranging L bracket but the rest of the crosshair itself. Yes it helps you, by dividing the mils up in .1 increments, but honestly how often are you ranging with a reticle ? It's a legacy skill set, and not your primary method of range determination. For me it is close to 3rd or 4th on my list on how I want to range something. In the military you are using target reference points, a laser, RULR, or the reticle. Which the reticle is only accurate to 800 yards if you are experienced. It's meant for danger close situations. At which point an experienced field shooter can do it without any reference at all. If you think the MSR is thick, you clearly have not looked through a Horus. They are much thicker.

Hodnett is paid by Horus to teach & sell the Horus, enough said.

Spinning the MSR to fit a narrative doesn't change the fact it works without the clutter. Nobody accuses it of being too busy. As well they have other variations of it coming out, as well as already out like the Kahles MSR -K which is a bit thinner with an open center and aiming dot. The MSR is just a variation of the P4, which is similar to the Mil-R.

 

[0311 Hesco]

Lowlight that's some more very good info. Thank you.

Do you have any insight on closed crosshair vs having an open center? Is the eye able to focus on one more than the other?

 

[pc3]

My thoughts are the beast should have been higher mag ratio like 3-30x with same elevation and they should have released a 22x F1

 

[0311 Hesco]

Lowlight?

 

[Ultraman550]

The Horus is a lowest common denominator tool, its for guys who have little or no experience and don't plan on practicing. That was the original concept.

As long as the shot falls within the FOV on any reticle you can do exactly the same thing without the clutter. Once battle zones move from a sandy, dusty place with plenty of down angles to someplace flat and wooden the next best tool will be talked about.

I shot the BEAST out to distance over the weekend, Had solid hits and only needed to dial using the .25 lever on the targets at 800 & 900, everything else, including my zero was established without needing the 1/4 MOA adjustment.

As far as having to wait a year... completely wrong. It's down the wire, they are moving forward pretty fast now. And Nightforce does not release optics that need to be fixed after. At least I have not experienced that. Maybe they have been misguided on a reticle or two, but as far as function, their scopes work out of the box. They don't release it until they are sure it is gonna work as advertised.

This scope is smaller than every competitor out there who offers the same 5-25x, I had the scope out in front of 25 people on Saturday and they all could not believe the size when compared to scopes like the S&B and Premiers that were on the line. Everyone who wanted a look, got one and everyone was impressed with what NF did with the BEAST. I continue to shoot it and will do so, if something screws up, I will let you know, but so far, no issues.

Hey Frank, question from a newb here. When you say its for guys who have little or no experience and don't plan on practicing are you saying this because the numbers are all laid out for you? I had a NF NPR-1 but had to sell it for financial reasons and I never really learned the correct way to use it. I had asked a question some time ago about NF HV.5 reticles and the majority of the opinions on it we're that it as well was a reticle that hindered your learning curve because it just made hitting the targets "easier". Do you feel the same way about the Vortex EBR-2?

 

[Lowlight]

The Vortex EBR is an excellent reticle and just mils, same as most of this stuff. Mils work that is a known fact. How you decide to divide the mils up is the job of the manufacturer. The only difference with the Vortex is they use the Dots which are a bit subdued which is nice.

The NF Velocity reticles are a BDC type, however they have finally explained it in a way that works. I have a SEAL model, FFP 3-15x F1 in mils. They won't sell it so don't ask. After you zero it, you then fine tune your zero at distance, like 500 yards. That adjusts the errors using a BDC to be closer to your reticle. BDC are designed for a specific cartridge and muzzle velocity. I have lobbied NF for a few years now to rename the Velocity reticles to the dope at 800 yards. So the velocity reticle that works with a standard 308 / 175 would be called the Velocity 26, and you would now it's 26 MOA at 800 yards. When conditions change slightly you would then dial the offset continuing to use the reticle.

David Tubb's DTR works in a similar fashion using your DA, you adjust the hold based on the movement of the Density Altitude based on your zero conditions.

In my opinion the Horus is too Course and it's been sold to the military & public as the do everything solution when it's not. Hell they even have one now with 30MPH & 60 MPH vehicle holds to shoot a moving car. The same reticle has big thick lines with very little numbers for the Soldier, another set of a scaled down grid over the top for SF, and the full grid for Snipers. All on the same reticle. You just pick your level of expertise and use that ... think about that a second.

You can do so much more with less. You'd need it in the FOV because we are all capable of lining up intersections on our own, even more so with a bit of practice. Not to mention dialing is 10x more accurate. Problem is, when you get crazy with lines, dots, reticles, it gets thrown off by dialing. The Horus TREMOR2 changes if you dial the scope. The holds are no long the same as if you just held. So dialing manipulates the holds because they strayed from using straight Mils. Then you get sliding factors.

An open center has no impact it's still tiny and at the intersection of a crosshair.

 

[knockemdown]

I have lobbied NF for a few years now to rename the Velocity reticles to the dope at 800 yards. So the velocity reticle that works with a standard 308 / 175 would be called the Velocity 26, and you would now it's 26 MOA at 800 yards. When conditions change slightly you would then dial the offset continuing to use the reticle.

I can appreciate that logic

 

[Ultraman550]

Group buy on the SEAL model, FFP 3-15x F1? Just kidding. Thanks for the response Frank, I appreciate your help.

 

[mikeltee]

I understand Graham. I was asking the OP his reasoning for basically negating the new features on the scope by making it something he can get on many other 5-25s for less money.

I was the first in line at euro optic for the Horus (H59). I ordered it the day it was announced. I'm not a gear queer as someone put it. I just have one of the baddest rifles on the market today(DTA) and I thought it deserved what hopefully shall be one of the baddest scopes on the market. I went with the Horus because is there anything wrong with having options? Hold when in a hurry. Dial when it counts! Ill train to hold. Plus it has a decent ranging system too. I doubt my LRF or my backup LRF ever fails to do its job, but again... More options.

I can't believe all of the people in the community talk smack about this scope. It's very innovative and the glass is going to be tier one. I personally think its jealousy. Sure there's nothing wrong with your swfa, but don't knock a man because its a little out of your price range. Do these guys talk shit about guys driving mazzaratis around town because its 1 second faster in the 1/4 mile than their mustang (duhhhhh he must have a small pecker)? I don't see too many people telling lowlight he's an idiot for getting a beast let alone getting one in MOA. /rant

 

[mikeltee]

What the hell is too much scope supposed to mean? If I remember correctly the Price is on par with S&B, Premier, etc.

The only "different" feature is the .2 turret with .1 clicker......past that....its more or less like every other scope in its range.

I've got one of the first pre orders in...and with that said if January 1st rolls around and the scope is not in my hand.....waiting for me is over. I'll go buy a Khales or another S&B at that point because you can only wait so long to put a perm scope on a rifle.

If I had a dime for every time I said "pushed back again? I'm getting a Kahles!" Deer season is rapidly approaching. That was my final straw. Something tells me you and I will be like a kid at Christmas when Feb rolls around and we get our beasts. BTW I really wish you would change your sig Lol. I like reading your posts but it don't make sense that you prefer plastic guns to American billet. Unless you have small hands then I totally understand.

 

[poison123]

If I had a dime for every time I said "pushed back again? I'm getting a Kahles!" Deer season is rapidly approaching. That was my final straw. Something tells me you and I will be like a kid at Christmas when Feb rolls around and we get our beasts. BTW I really wish you would change your sig Lol. I like reading your posts but it don't make sense that you prefer plastic guns to American billet. Unless you have small hands then I totally understand.

LOL your probably right on the waiting part.

The sig is a joke because both Joe and I are 1911 hounds.

 

[0311 Hesco]

I think im gonna get a Kahles based on the msr-k reticle instead. Maybe if NF every offers it in the beast that can go on the wifes rifle. Thanks for the insight lowlight...calling eurooptics later

 

[Rob01]

I was the first in line at euro optic for the Horus (H59). I ordered it the day it was announced. I'm not a gear queer as someone put it. I just have one of the baddest rifles on the market today(DTA) and I thought it deserved what hopefully shall be one of the baddest scopes on the market. I went with the Horus because is there anything wrong with having options? Hold when in a hurry. Dial when it counts! Ill train to hold. Plus it has a decent ranging system too. I doubt my LRF or my backup LRF ever fails to do its job, but again... More options.

I can't believe all of the people in the community talk smack about this scope. It's very innovative and the glass is going to be tier one. I personally think its jealousy. Sure there's nothing wrong with your swfa, but don't knock a man because its a little out of your price range. Do these guys talk shit about guys driving mazzaratis around town because its 1 second faster in the 1/4 mile than their mustang (duhhhhh he must have a small pecker)? I don't see too many people telling lowlight he's an idiot for getting a beast let alone getting one in MOA. /rant

Lighten up Francis. Just an opinion as to not seeing a reason for the combo and wanting the OPs reasoning. And no I am not jealous in the least bit or do i have an SWFA scope, which are fine for the money by the way. If I wanted a Beast I would have one but just waiting to see what happens when they actually make it in the hands of people for a longer period of time. See if the new knobs are the next best thing that all the marketing and advertising people are screaming. I know the Horus isn't but if you are happy with it then it's your money to spend.