Suppressors Open Carry

[krink85]

First, I do not want to start a crazy debate. I read a thread where there was bashing and what not. Not what I want please.

I just moved to AZ and have read the gun laws here. I can open carry without a permit. I was born and raised in Illinois and we all know their laws. I do plan on getting my CCW when I finally get settled but other things come first. While I wait to get into a class and to get my permit I want to open carry. With all the POSITIVE publicity we have had lately with open carry I think it would also be positive move for our rights.

I also understand that, in some people's opinion, I have labeled myself as a target right off the bat. I can understand saying that but where is the proof? I am a target anyway because if someone is going to do something stupid they are going to take out the person who poses the most threat to them. I am military so in my eyes they already see me as a threat. I might as well have a weapon so if I do get attacked I can try to defend myself if I am not already dead.

So with that being stated is it wise or not to open carry?


EDIT: I also would liek to state if I do decide to open carry I will utlize a holster with some sort of level of retainment.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Open Carry

Welcome to the free world.

I don't open carry too much anymore. I don't want to be the proof of the target scenario. If I were a committed felon not wanting to go back to the pen and someone was openly carrying when I came in to commit my crime, I'd pop him/her first.

CCW is just an 8hr class away.......

 

[Downzero]

Re: Open Carry

Nothing wrong with open carry in a state where it's popular. Get a decent holster and rock on with your bad ass self; I would.

 

[AK10mm]

Re: Open Carry

Another problem with OC is property rights,if a business owner doesn't want a firearm on his property,it's his right.With CC,I don't even worry about it.Besides,as stated above,I don't want to be the first target because some punk knows I'm packing.

 

[marduk185]

Re: Open Carry

if more folks were openly armed i believe wed see less punks trying to commit crimes of violence however, to be the odd man out in a crowd of unarmed people does present the target theory. i say arm a few friends and present a higher target ratio to the bastids.

 

[fasteddie565]

Re: Open Carry

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome to the free world.

I don't open carry too much anymore. I don't want to be the proof of the target scenario. If I were a committed felon not wanting to go back to the pen and someone was openly carrying when I came in to commit my crime, I'd pop him/her first.

CCW is just an 8hr class away....... </div></div>

Biker,

While I wholeheartedly agree on the CCW class, I doubt if most felons, committed to offending in a public place would have the situational awareness to ID all of the OC citizens. Its possible, but I think if YOU are carrying, concealed or open, your own SA should aid you in IDing this perp before they commit their crime.


My $.02

 

[birddog762]

Re: Open Carry

i think if your out in more remote areas great, but around the masses/burbs your putting yourself in position to be hasseled and fkd with for sure.you will be the one with the headache and financial burden if you draw the wrong LEO. just my .02 fwiw.

 

[smokshwn]

Re: Open Carry

One of the biggest issues with OC is weapon awareness/retention. When properly concealed I have a little more leeway in going about my daily errands and tasks. With that weapon in the open for all to see (and possibly be tempted by) it requires more attention.

OC also brings a lot of unwanted notice and attention from everyone not just bad guys. I prefer to go about my business as anonymously as possible.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Open Carry

I don't understand why you guys are so concerned about comparing oc to cc.

 

[ubet]

Re: Open Carry

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Welcome to the free world.

I don't open carry too much anymore. I don't want to be the proof of the target scenario. If I were a committed felon not wanting to go back to the pen and someone was openly carrying when I came in to commit my crime, I'd pop him/her first.

CCW is just an 8hr class away....... </div></div>

Very good point. But on the other hand, if you are a committed felon, would it be reasonable to assume that someone who is open carrying is going to have situational awarness and probably notice you coming in with a gun or you going to draw? On the other hand, isnt it more likely that a perp committing a crime will go somewhere where the people arent armed or wait until they leave. IF I were going to rob a place, the last place I would want to go into is a place where people are armed.
Take it or leave it, just my .002

 

[ToddM]

Re: Open Carry

Open carry in public were you have to have unknown people in your personal space is just a bad idea. Out in the wilderness or in very low populated areas or if you spend 99% of your time in a vehicle, not a big deal.

Unless you can ensure that no one will ever be standing behind you or close enough to you to remove your weapon it's a bad idea. It just attracts a huge amount of attention to you that you don't need but obviously want.

I can't count the number of idiots I've seen standing in a store or in line at a gas station with a gun on them with poor or no retention where I could have removed their weapon and beat them silly with it before they even knew what was going on.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Open Carry

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can't count the number of idiots I've seen standing in a store or in line at a gas station with a gun on them with poor or no retention where I could have removed their weapon and beat them silly with it before they even knew what was going on. </div></div>

And what makes you think that would actually happen? People fear firearms. They're not toys.

 

[AK10mm]

Re: Open Carry

For those of you really interested in this subject:Open vs. Concealed Carry,I don't have the exact link handy,but there is a site called Opencarry.org that is devoted to this issue,it also has different forums for each state that deal with local and state rules in-depth.Like any site there is both good and bad info.

 

[Arevalosocom]

Re: Open Carry

I open carry & CCW and I'm glad i don't have to take any class to do either.

 

[Tims]

Re: Open Carry

Krink85, last time I was in AZ (Phenoix)open carry was not unusual, it seemed quite common.I dont believe you would be a target because you are armed. As long as you are competent with your wepon, it is prpoerly secured, and you understand the laws in your aera on the use of deadly force you should be ok.

 

[Graham]

Re: Open Carry

You need to ask yourself at least two questions: How good are your open-hand defensive tactics skills; and what are the laws regarding the use of (deadly and) non-deadly force?

If you are attacked in public by someone who does not have a weapon are you permitted to use deadly force to defend yourself? For example, is an assault against you with fists, and assuming no serious injury, only a misdemeanor? If so, because you can't legally use deadly force to repel a non-deadly force attack, what can you do that won't unlawfuly escalate the incident? Also, if deadly force is not permitted but you draw your gun, have YOU just committed the crime of assault with a dangerous weapon? And if the other person in unarmed, yet foolish enough to give you trouble, you just brought a weapon to the conflict. Are you knowledgeable and capable enough to prevent it from being unlawfully used against the attacker, used against another, or used against you?

 

[slimguns]

Re: Open Carry

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can't count the number of idiots I've seen standing in a store or in line at a gas station with a gun on them with poor or no retention where I could have removed their weapon and beat them silly with it before they even knew what was going on. </div></div>

And what makes you think that would actually happen? People fear firearms. They're not toys. </div></div>

No disrespect Downzero but maybe being that multiple people from states that are OC all have a fairly similar view as opposed to the one guy who lives in a no OC, wouldn't it be reasonable to consider maybe there is something to their views and theories.

I too live in an OC state but I CC 99.8% of the time. I think that with anything of value ("bling" or firearms) you're SA must be on high alert all of the time others know you have those valuables. I don't know about everyone else but I find it hard to run at 100% all of the time. I prefer to blend in and be the one doing the surprising.

It would be very different if everyone (or the whole group you were with) OC'd but that is not how it is. And as for the comment about people being afraid of guns, it's unfortunately true. OC to get people use to the presence of guns may not be the way to change the hearts of the ignorant around us.

Just my $.02

 

[krink85]

Re: Open Carry

Thanks all for the info. Deffently two sides to this situation. To answer you question Graham I do feel confident in my ability to take down someone with out using deadly force. Im not too big but at 5 10 215 im not small either. And not to be a tan belt ninja but through MCMAP I have learned quite a bit (im at brown right now and hoping we get black belt instructor here soon). I beleive i will try it once. See how I feel. See if the sheep wig out or i get harrassed. Once again for the insightful info.

 

[Graham]

Re: Open Carry

I'm not against people having the right to open carry (or to carry concealed, for that matter).

But with that right comes the resposibility of knowing what the f--- you are doing, knowing what you are permitted to do by law, and a certain amount of fear that a single moment of bad judgement can lead you into a world of future trouble.

I have carried a gun openly in public, as part of my job. I wouldn't do it in an urban setting without the extra protections afforded to a law enforcement officer. And even then, not being able to conceal it from others is not only a right-royal pain in the ass but also a disadvantage.

 

[krink85]

Re: Open Carry

I understand what you are saying Graham. Common sence dictates any situation. Also reading the laws is helpful in what you can and can not do. Being military I have had many classes on esclation of force as well as the use of deadly force. Understandably the military is very much different than out in the civilian world but I can use this training to better access a situation.

I did puchase a Blackhawk Sherpa CQC. Not sure of the level of rentention but it holds nicely. I wore it to Lowes while I was gettign pain. I wore it there because I knew it was a quick in and out. I didnt get any crazy looks or anyone freaking out. So for my first time it was uneventful as I hope every other time will be. I made sure I wore dark jeans as well as a black shirt to help it blend in. It was deffently weird comming form Illinois and being able to carry here.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Open Carry

I just can't expect myself to be 100% aware all the time. OC demands a level of awareness that's tough to keep up. It takes discipline to stay at condition yellow the majority of the time if one is enjoying life.

If I'm CC, I have mentally ran the scenario of a fistfight. I personally know that I may lose a brawl, and have to know that I cannot draw on a person unless I am in reasonable fear for my life.

There are stupid people out there that will get in the face of person openly armed with a sidearm (ask most any patrol officer). Once engaged in physical agression an openly carried weapon becomes a huge liability-if a boxing match turns to a wrestling match with an unarmed assailant you will be civilly and potentially liable if you draw against a less than lethal or "aggrevated" assault. The moment you are within your rights to use deadly force is then probably when you lose retention of your sidearm in the fight, then what good is it to you?

I'd prefer to control the tempo of the escalation (or the ability to respond to it if it arises) rather than precipitate it.

If you are not a troll on this forum, then you probably love your right to keep and bear arms as much as I do.
That said, how many consider that if they are drawn into a situation with a drunken jackass where the presentation of their weapon happens in a manner that could be construed by witnesses or evidence as being the least bit unresonable, that they may be endagering up their legal right to carry (or own for that matter) firearms???

I liked open carry more before I got my CCW.......

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Re: Open Carry

Open carry is pretty common in Tucson where I live, never heard of anyone getting messed with about it...except my CCW instructor, he writes almost every positive firearm bill in Arizona, so he pushes issues on purpose sometimes if it is not clearly defined.

 

[Downzero]

Re: Open Carry

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No disrespect Downzero but maybe being that multiple people from states that are OC all have a fairly similar view as opposed to the one guy who lives in a no OC, wouldn't it be reasonable to consider maybe there is something to their views and theories.
</div></div>

So can only women have an opinion on abortion now, because only women can get abortions? Obviously not.

I live 30 minutes from Indiana and I'm licensed to carry in over 30 states. I fail to see how this is relevant, but no, I do not think that has any bearing on the issue.

People on the internet merely repeat what they see other people saying on other sites on the internet. Open carry is perfectly legal and safe; cops do it every day. Is it my preferred method of carry? Usually not. But if it was my only option, of course I'd open carry. What kind of ridiculous dichotomy is this anyway? If the options are open carry or no gun, are you going to go empty handed to a gun fight?

 

[Shumba]

Re: Open Carry

I would hate to let people know that I'm carrying. Gives the other party an advantage, as they can choose to act if conditions are in their favor (you are pumping gas, paying for something at the counter, etc., etc.). I don't care what belt/MMA/BJJ you are, a heavy object to the back of your head will take you out enough for someone to gain control of your weapon. SA is great, but there are times in close quarters where you could be at risk. If I was a felon looking to quickly acquire a firearm, you would make a decent target. By the way, I carry a G22 oc while on duty as a reserve deputy and even when I'm with my partner, I think about this. YMMV.

 

[hatidua]

Re: Open Carry

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krink85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I just moved to AZ and have read the gun laws here. I can open carry without a permit. </div></div>

-Many things are legal to do without a permit. Not all of them are great ideas, for a whole host of reasons.

 

[krink85]

Re: Open Carry

Well in reguards to my MCMAP belt level that was to give another poster a general description of how I could handle a fist fight brawl situation. I by no means think I am king shit when it comes to hand to hand fighting. I can see your points Shumba and beleive they are valid. Thats was my purpose in starting this thread.

Also Hatidua I know just because you can doesnt mean you should. Not to counter you or to say you are wrong but I will only open carry while I wait to get in a CCW class or to the range. I did it a couple times this weekend and was very aware of my surroundings. With that being said I did notice there were times I slacked.

 

[jwmurff]

Re: Open Carry

Hey I fully agree with open carry, I wish I could here in TX but until then, i just carry concealed. I'm going into the coast guard in october so hopefully I'll be stationed somewhere that I can still carry period.

 

[Shumba]

Re: Open Carry

Krink,

Sorry man, didn't mean to bag on the fighting skills side of things. That is HUGE and I wish all the good guys out there would take some lessons on it. I have a little, but need to take/train a LOT more. The reality is that your fighting skills will come into play much more than your shooting skills (regardless if you OC or CCW). If I am in uniform (as a reserve, I'm usually with a partner) and some unarmed A__hole doesn't want to go along with the progam and has the "f__k you cop" stance, my weapon is still not leaving the holster. That is when you fall back on your ACT training and think of your options. Luckily, I get to carry pepper spray, an expanding baton and a taser in addition to my weapon.

Sorry to rant, but I think too many people rely on the fact that they carry a gun to get them out of trouble.

 

[ArmedByRuger]

Re: Open Carry

There are some great and credible comments in here on this post. In a nutshell open carry is needed when intimidation is necessary to keep you safe then and only then is it really necessary. If your out in the boonies with unfriendly deliverance people who would just soon stab you in the back just for breathing it will completely change their attitude toward you. Other than those type situations CCW is a way better way to go. As some other knowledgeable people have already mentioned even police officers trained in weapons retention in hand to hand combat get their holstered side arms taken from them and shot with them in struggle it can and does happen. In most situations Tactility and surprise can save someones life and give you the upper hand to take charge. When it comes the the "Obligation of Carry" to defend the lives of innocent people I want and you want the biggest advantages you can have.

 

[flyboy]

Re: Open Carry

Just a question what constituts open carry, how open does it have to be. Obviously a tactical rig hangin on your leg is open but lets say can your shirt cover the grip for instance. I guess that would help me make up my mind.

 

[ArmedByRuger]

Re: Open Carry

"can your shirt cover the grip for instance"

Hell no if your jacket or shirt covered any part of the gun even the magazines you would find your butt in jail so fast your head would spin

 

[flyboy]

Re: Open Carry

OK, I wasn't sure what that really ment. I'm still up in the air about what i think about it. I guess situation dictates

 

[christian77]

Re: Open Carry

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krink85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I wait to get into a class and to get my permit I want to open carry.</div></div>
You had better be switched on with an almost unatural sense of awareness every second you plan on carrying openly. Most people can't handle that for too long.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ubet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...would it be reasonable to assume that someone who is open carrying is going to have situational awarness...</div></div>
Absolutely not, in my opinion most people carrying open probably view their visible side arm as deterrent enough from being a victim.

You have to maintain incredible vigiliance...and with that being said, NOBODY can stay "on" 24/7.

 

[SuckitTrebek]

Re: Open Carry

If I was as criminal I'd shoot you in the face first just for being dumb.

After all if your a bad guy about to do bad things who would you shoot first if you saw that? Exactly

Go ahead and open carry, your already behind the power curve.

This isn't Iraq